Eamonn

Please don't tell anyone that I said so, but your time spent at Windsor Castle was far better spent there, than it would have been at Gilwell Park. While many see it as the Mecca of Scouting, just about everyone who has made the pilgrimage has come away feeling very let down. Gilwell Park is about as interesting as your Council Summer Camp site is in October. If there is a course in progress they are busy and don't want or need people visiting. The Gateways while interesting are not spectacular, the buildings are OK as are the statues. The museum is a nice way to fill about twenty minutes and the shop is pale by American standards. The last few years has seen a lot of development, mainly offices as the Brits, sold the office building next door to Baden Powell House and are moving their base of operations to Gilwell Park. They do have plans to give the White House a makeover before 2007 and are selling Wood Badge beads made from fallen oaks. I really like the British Wood Badge neckerchief, it is longer than the American one, you can buy the 100% wool one, but it gets really hot wearing it. I hope you got to see Saint Georges Chapel, at Windsor thats where I got my Queens Scout Award. They haven't got around to placing a plaque there as yet to mark the occasion, I think it's just an oversight and they will when I'm old and gray - Hang on I am old and gray. Dear Your Majesty, You might not remember me but..... Eamonn.

"Not everyone is a leader. That is not a bad thing, nor should everyone be a leader. Much as I hate to be disagreeable, I really do have to say that there is no way I will accept that statement. We believe that Leadership is a skill that can be taught. Look at one of the final requirements for Eagle - Yes it's a Leadership Project. Sure a troop might make the wrong choice when electing the SPL, but they learn by their mistakes and we the adults know that if we work with and support a Lad who may at first have seemed like the wrong choice all sorts of surprising things can happen. It is the job of the Scoutmaster to train the SPL, ASPL and the Patrol Leaders. To say "Not everyone is a leader. That is not a bad thing, nor should everyone be a leader." Is a total cop out. Eamonn.

I never said that I was upset.Long before I had already stared calling the guy "Pockets" because he was about as useful as pockets in your under-wear. Eamonn

I have to wonder how someone who calls him or her self a Cat Smasher, can question how much free time we have. Thanks to Shane our Collie, we don't see that many cats, but mashed cats?? Eamonn.

Welcome back, At times I wonder how packs /troops and even districts manage to do so a good job of messing things up. I really would love to know how this happens? The thing that bugs me the most is that while doing things "Not by the book" can and does work for a while, it seems to me that once things start going wrong everything becomes unraveled. Reminds me of when my mother would undo her knitting after she had messed up (She was a fantastic knitter, I still have Aron sweaters that she spent hours on.) Of course when this happens, it is the kids that we said that we were going to serve that get the shaft. Who is to blame? There is always more than enough blame to go around. At the District level. Did we really go out and do everything that could be done to get these guys trained? Did the Unit Commissioner know what was going on? Was there a Unit Commissioner? When the DE found out things were not going right did he or she mention it to the CO? At the unit level. Were the Leaders selected? Or did we settle for a body that was still warm? When people seen things were not being done as they should be, did anyone make a stand or make a fuss? The questions are almost endless. I am no longer a part of the Commissioner staff. Looking at what Zipity has posted. If I were still commissioning, I think I would see what the Unit Commissioner has got to say. We don't know why he hasn't done something before now. I would ask the COR if he would be willing to call a meeting, inviting the Cubmaster, the Pack CC,the COR,the Unit Commissioner and either the Assistant Commissioner Cub Scouts or the District Commissioner, if the DE was free invite him or her as well. The meeting would not be in the Cubmasters home.(I have a hard time being stern with people in their own home.) Starting with the big items that the pack is not doing right we would cover all the "Sins".The time for being nice has past. We (The District) need to tell it as it is. In fact wrong as it might be I would go out of my way to scare the heck out of the COR. Cub Scouts camping without a Tour Permit would sound like a hanging offense! The way pack funds are being managed would seem like a capitol crime. There is a very good chance that before the end of the meeting that the pack might end up with out a Cubmaster and a Pack CC. This would be their choice. There is a good chance that before the end of the week the pack could lose these two, that would be up to the CO. Working with the COR (If there wasn't one, or he was just a name I would talk with the CO and see about getting their permission to act on their behalf. This may not be kosher, but I have done it in the past.) We would come up with a plan. The plan would would be putting the pack on something that would seem a little "Probation". Working with the Pack Committee to undo the stuff that is wrong getting the Pack Committee Trained. Working with the Leaders to get them Trained. Of course this will only work if the CO wants it to work. If they say that they are happy with things as they are. That is the end of it. I would then butt out.Of course I'm not a Commissioner. However Zippity, you could start the ball rolling when you meet with the COR. if they ask you to take a hike, what have you lost? Eamonn.

I don't see that the Region is "Stacking the deck." Sure there are lists of people who are eligible for promotion, and people who for one reason or another want to be promoted or leave where they are at. The Council does not have to go with the first list and could go through lots of lists. I see what the Region does as trying to help.Not as stacking the deck, the final word comes from the volunteers, we make the final choice. Eamonn.

Meamemg, First thanks for the kind words. I agree that we do need to do a better job of listening to what our youth members are saying. My problem is that I don't think that the District Committee Meeting or the Executive Board meeting is the place. I really don't see that having a couple of youth members sitting in on a meeting is anything more than window dressing. While I hate to seem like I'm blowing my own trumpet but I think we have made a lot of progress by having our SPL's come to Roundtable. The original reason for inviting them was to find a way of improving District Camporees. It worked,we seen attendance go through the roof. We started by having them take over the camp fire and the Scout's Own. We have had a really great Camporee where the Venture Crews planned the theme (Buckskin Games) They were in charge of the activities, the SPL's planned the Campfire and Scout's Own and the District Activity Committee worked with them on promotion and lunch. We have had the Council High Adventure Committee send a guy in to talk about upcoming Council trips to Philmont and Sea Base. The Council Training Committee have sent people in to promote JLTC. We have used the contact list to ask the SPL's to help with recruitment. While I have no way of proving it, I think that the SPL's have helped improve attendance at R/T, they are asking the SM for a ride. All in all it is working. Still we are walking a very fine line, I do not want the District to start getting in the way of the troops program. The SPL's were there when the Council Key3 came to do the Fireside Chat, they asked questions about camp and council activities. We have not as yet had 100% turn out, but are in about the 75% range, I think we are really hearing what they are saying. They are seeing real results and know that we will follow up. In some ways it has been an eye opener for the Scoutmasters. Or I should say some of the Scoutmasters,we can't make troops do anything. We are setting the example by allowing these Lads the opportunity to come up with ideas that will turn out to be things that will activities that they want to do and will be the leaders of. At almost every R/T all the District Key3 are there, after the meeting we spend a few minutes going over what happened. Thanks to them being at these meetings we have made improvements in advancement, we now have a fixed time and place foe Eagle Scout BOR's and the Merit Badge list can be E-mailed to any Scout who contacts the Dean of Merit Badges. The Scouts are there for the dreaded announcements, so they are not only informed but have the opportunity to ask questions. When you look at the agendas of District and Board meetings program is not the main item. All the areas that make up program: Camping, Advancement,Training, Activities. Have their own committee and Chairman. In our Council these committees are made up of the District Chairs for that specific area.These committees meet a few times a year and report to the vice-president for program. He reports to the Executive Board. Something which is a very big deal to the people involved in it becomes one line in his report. At the District meeting, we do spend a little more time on program, but again it is a very small part of what we do. The program is delivered by the units. Sure everyone has an opinion about just about everything. I'm sure if we were to ask our Scouts about, Finances, Commissioner Service and Membership, there would be some good ideas, the same would be true if we asked Cub Scout parents, Boy Scout parents, Crew Members and just about any other group. Most Lads of Scout age would find this all very boring.Heck most of the adults find it very boring!! It is however very necessary. I am all for us doing everything we can to make Scouts and Scouting a fun and adventurous activity for our Scouts. I'm painfully aware that there is about a 35 year age gap between them and myself. I used to think that if I ever heard "Check Your Resources!!" Again I would go insane. I'm starting to feel the same way about "Feedback Is A Gift." Of course both are very true. I just think that we need to find the right time and place. I don't think a couple of token empty seats is the way to go about it. Eamonn.

Hi and welcome to the forums. Without wishing to come off as some kind of "Smarty Pants" I have tried to imagine that we were having this conversation in real time -Whatever that might mean? I wonder if the conversation might go something like: Eamonn: Hi 99 how is it going? SMT99: Fine, but I'm having a problem with some of the POR's listed in the book, mainly the Librarian and Historian. Eamonn: What sort of problem? SMT99:The VAST majority of Scouts who get the titles do little to nothing with them. It's like a 'free-bee' for the position clause for advancement. Heck, even the chaplain's aid says a prayer a couple of times a month, and I'm supposed to pass him for same requirement that a patrol leader or ASPL had to really struggle with. It just doesn't make sense to me. Eamonn: Do you think that the problem is that the Scouts are just not doing enough or that they just don't know what to do? SMT99: I know that given 100% of my attention, I could make sure that the Librarian & Historian positions actually DO SOMETHING. Eamonn: So what would you say that your goal is in all this? SMT99: I want these boys to experience leadership! And if they go from one easy job to another up the ranks, when will they learn it? Eamonn: I wonder if we should change that question a bit and ask who will they learn it from? Who do they work with? SMT99: That would be me. Eamonn: What tools do you need that would make what you are doing with the Scouts better for everyone? SMT99: I have all the books, the Scoutmaster and the Scouthand books, I have done all the training's and I'm a regular at the monthly Roundtable meetings. Eamonn: What would happen if you asked the PLC to work with you and you spent a little time writing a job description for these positions? SMT99: I don't know, but what the heck it's worth a try. Eamonn: Of course being that we are working with one Scout in each of these positions we have to remember that cookie cutter job descriptions may not always work. We could have a Lad who has a learning disability and has a hard time with reading, so we have to remain flexible. We want the Scout to do his best and his best may not always live up to our expectations of what or how the job could be done. It's a very tough call. How do you think we can do what's best for the Scout? SMT99: The Scout? Eamonn: Yes the Scout, not the Patrol or the Troop but the little Lad who has agreed to take this job on. SMT99: I would need to meet with him. Eamonn: Great!! Remember all the things that were covered in Wood Badge? The Vision, Mission, and Goals? SMT99: Sure. Eamonn: If you met with the Scout and went over the job description, that the PLC,with your support had came up with and asked him "What do you think needs to be done to make our Library or Troop records better? This could be his vision. Something very simple. Maybe as simple as: Our Troop Library is going to be really good." You could then ask why? Of course there is going to be a fair amount of looking at his shoes, raised eyebrows and he may even think that you have gone off your rocker!! But with a little help from you the two of you will come to some sort of agreement. Maybe along the lines of: The troop will keep track of all the books and video tapes that we have. Add a couple of words and it could become "The mission of the Troop Librarian is to keep track of all the books, tapes and AV equipment that belong to troop 99." Eamonn: So what comes next? SMT99: That's easy the goals. Eamonn: This is the part that will help the Scout learn Leadership, so far he has come up with his vision of what it should be like. He has come up with his mission about what is going to be done. The goals are the tasks that he is going to work on to meet his mission. This is where you need to really be there for the Scout. Working with him you can help him come up with a set of goals that are : Specific. Measurable. Attainable. Relevant. Time-Based. SMT99: Do these goals have to be for the benefit of the Troop? Eamonn: No. A Scout could have as a goal that he will meet with the local Librarian and find out how the books are cataloged there. Or he might visit a local Historian and see how they arrange their archives or a local photographer and get tips on how to use the troops new digital camera. SMT99: This is all very well and good, but I just don't have the time to do all this. Eamonn: Maybe you need to see if as ASM or a Troop Committee member could help. You will need to see the Scout is coming along with his goals. He might need to change them if something isn't working out. SMT99: Most of our Lads are air heads they will forget the goals as soon as we finish talking. Eamonn: Yes!! That's why it's very important that they write them down. SMT99: So what happens next? Eamonn: Hopefully you or who you have asked to work with the Lad have been supporting him and checking that he is working on his goals, so when the SM conference comes along. He will dig out his list of goals and the two of you can discuss how things went, what if anything does he think he has learned from doing the job? What parts of the Scout Oath and Law did he use to get the job done? What changes would he recommend that the PLC make to the job description? How did he like working with the person that you asked to work with him? What goals would he change if he was to start all over again? Of course the big question is; "Do you think that you really did your best?" SMT99: Thanks, I will have to spend a little time seeing if this can work. Eamonn: Your Welcome. Leadership is a very big word. Some people see it as the act of leading others. Some see it as getting a job done. As leaders we need to have an idea or a dream that we working toward, we need to identify our mission. The BSA has both a Vision and a Mission Statement. The chartered organization that we work with have looked at our program, our vision and our mission, they like who we are, what we stand for and where we are going. One of these Organizations has selected you as the person who will deliver this program to the youth that they want to reach out to. Along with the BSA statements, there is SMT99. He shares in the statements, his values are in line with both the BSA and the CO. Troop 99, has a lot of good people who have an idea of where the Troop is heading. SMT99,has brought his skills and his talents to the table. He also has personal goals. Of course we don't know what they are. We do know that he is doing his best for the Lads in Troop 99. From the posting I see that he wants some sort of a standard. The standard is there, it just needs to be found. I am in total agreement that just giving a Lad a patch and a title without a goal is teaching him all the wrong lessons. I don't agree that we need to rewrite the requirements. At the end of the day it comes down to accountability. If we don't hold the Scout accountable for doing something. He will do nothing. If we don't work with him and offer him the opportunity to do his best. Can we blame him, when he doesn't do his best? I think that a Lad who can with the help and support of others, come up with a vision, a mission and set goals which he really tries to meet is learning a lot about leadership and responsibility. I also believe that a Lad who does nothing needs to learn that life doesn't reward people who do nothing. If we allow patch wearing and title holding to be the standard, we are letting everyone down. Making it work is not easy, but isn't that the message we are trying to get across to the youth that we serve? We can do nothing and in return will not see any good return and will be doing a lot of harm. Even the POR's that seem "Daffy" give us the opportunity to put some of methods of Scouting to work: The Ideals,Advancement,Personal Growth,Adult Association,Leadership Development. It seems like a good deal to me. Eamonn.

Boy Oh Boy, we have been playing this game for almost 100 years and the problem with communication is still just that a problem. I have a couple of thoughts. Back in the day, I when I was an SM made a point of going to the Scouts home to meet with his parents. I tend to talk a lot so the most I ever got in any one night was three. I seen this meeting as a vital part of my job. I got to see what what sort of home the Lad was coming from. I got to cover all the important things like where to buy a uniform, what it cost, where the patches went, where we were going for summer camp. But just as important it gave them a chance to size me up. They got to see that I was just a normal one headed two eyed old Lad. Meetings were never hard.Wednesday was games night, Thursday was swimming and Friday was troop night. We had a Troop newsletter that went out once a month. Most of it was taken up with Patrol news. A Scouts Mum would cut the stencil and the Patrol leaders would make a big mess running it off on a very old Gestedner (sp) machine. It took almost as long to clean up as it did to prepare the newsletter. I hate announcements, for the most part they are a waste of time.I normally had a word with the SPL and he took care of them. For the Jamboree, I am using E-mail and phone calls. Still the parents are coming to the meetings and asking questions. I will be working on the PL's to start working more with their patrols. Eamonn.

Blaze, I forgot in the other thread to welcome you to the forum. Starting or resurrecting a troop is not an easy task. What you guys are doing is wonderful. I wish you nothing but the best and thank you, I'm sure the little fellows from the pack will have lots of fun and plenty of adventures in their new home. Eamonn.

Give your District Training Chair a call and see about having the Troop Committee Training done ASAP. Pick up a copy of the : Troop Committee Guidebook. Scoutmaster Handbook and the Scout Handbook. Read them all. Grab a hold of AV-048 The Barbecue: Working With the Troop Committee Video AV-048VG The Barbecue: Working With the Troop Committee Viewer Guide . Watch the video and then share it with your committee members. Read :Selecting Quality Leaders. This works if you follow each and every step in order you will find it in your Scout Shop or on line at: http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=cm You need to establish a good relationship with the COR and the Unit Commissioner. You and the Scoutmaster are very much a team, the more you know about what his job is the better for the troop. People may look at him as being the Captain of the ship, but coming in and out of port the Ships Pilot is the guy steering the ship. You are the pilot. Most pack committees don't do much stuff with the boys, this is different in the troop. The Committee does a lot more. If you don't have a uniform now would be a good time to buy one. Don't be afraid to look in on the troop at the troop meetings or when they are at camp. If the COR isn't as active as you would like don't give up on him, invite him to everything, send him reports about how the troop is doing copy the Executive Officer. Be selective about who you invite to become committee members, remember this is a management committee not a parents meeting. You are meeting to keep the troop moving ahead, dead weight will only slow you down. Most meetings will have you asking people to do things, you need to hold the people you ask accountable for getting the job done. Don't wait until the next meeting to find out that they haven't done it, give them a call and ask them how it is coming along? Use the rechartering next year to see how the troop leadership is coming along. If someone isn't working out, then is a good time to let them go. Remember the troop is there to serve the Scouts not the leaders. Take the time to reward the leaders thank yous are very important. A CC who stops in at summer camp with a cake for everyone will make a lot of friends. Eamonn.

Working with youth members is not the problem. Many of us having been doing this for a number of years. Some of us are vain enough to go so far as to think that we are fairly good at it. If the District Committee, decides that we need to enlist the help of the OA or a Venture Crew, I have no problem asking the Chair to go and visit them. Just as we don't invite every person who does something for the District to sit on the District Committee. I don't see the need to invite youth members onto the committee. The whatever Chair. works with these guys and reports back to the committee. As for a couple of youth speaking their minds. I must attend different meetings than the ones that you do. We meet once a month for 90 minutes. There are reports on what has been accomplished, goals are set. The Committee is made up of people who will get the job done. The Agenda is set by myself and the DE, we focus on reaching goals. Near the end of the meeting we have a DE Minute, something like a Scoutmasters minute and we have a Pride and Soft Spots, where I get to state how I see we are doing. We don't have the time or the need for people speaking their minds. We do at times look at such things as unpaid pledges, I do not want youth members in on that sort of discussion. We have had events that have ended up in the red. At times the comments about the person who allowed this to happen are very blunt. Again not for the ears of our youth members. I have never seen a diagram from National that shows youth members on a district committee. We do invite SPL's to attend certain Round-table meetings and we have a Venturing RT where youth members are a vital part. If anything comes out of these meetings it is presented to the District Commissioner, who brings it to the key3 and can make it part of the Commissioners report at the District Meeting. The DE can bring it to a staff meeting and I can bring it to a Executive Board meeting. My Son is the AVC in our Lodge,while they do have an outstanding web site and do a good job with communications. From what I see it is very much one way. Sure we have a handful of youth members who are officers in the Lodge and they are working their hearts out. The truth is that most youth members see the OA and their involvement as something that happens at camp and on OA weekends. The older Scouts are pushed for time due to school activities, social activities and troop activities. In most of the troops that I see the OA Rep. position is not in any way living up to expectations. While I am not that active in the Lodge I have noticed that all the youth officers are the son's of very active Scouter's. While I am very happy with nearly all of those who sit on our District Committee,I am 100% happy and sure that these people are trustworthy. We don't need the example of youth members to show us that gossip and rumor can do untold harm. While it would be unfair of me to say that all OA members don't understand how things work. I have seen people who ought to know better engage tongue before brain. For example I attended the August OA weekend, mainly because I knew that OJ was receiving Vigil Honor. We I'm sad to say have one District that is fast becoming a rebel outfit. A member of this District and an ex-Lodge Adviser approached me and the group of youth members and started telling me that he didn't want to hear anything more about this FOS #$%! He went on to say that he had been present when a local business man had presented the Scout Executive with a check for $110,000.And that no one ever tells the volunteers about this. The real facts are that this money was from a golf outing and that 80% of the proceeds from this annual event go into the endowment fund. He then walked away leaving me to explain to these young Lads, what an endowment fund is, why we have one and answer a lot of questions about how the money for the council is managed. It is hard to explain to a 14 or 15 year that yes we have just got over $100k, but no we can't spend it on the new Nature building. While things in your Council may have been a little bumpy. I am pleased to say that while we have had bumps in the road I have never seen political factions. About five years back we did fire our Scout Executive. If anything this bonded the board members more than anything. We knew that we were being watched, we knew that we had to make Quality Council. The search committee that interviewed and reported back when they thought that they had found the right guy, was made up from a good cross section of the board. We knew that we had to do everything that we could to support the new Scout Executive. We had discussed at Board meetings what strengths in what areas the person that we hired would have to have. We as a Board seen the need to bring more money into the Council, we wanted a guy who was good at raising money. The Board is made up from community minded people. It is fair to say that there are not as many program people on the board as there used to be. We have a lot more business people, people who are CEO's of big corporations, people who are experts in their fields. Many of these people are new to Scouting. They do a great job for the Council. Some of us "Program Types" have our own little thing that we think is more important than anything else. Mine would be Training. I would love to see us spend a lot more on training. Other people have their own pet project. We all know that we are not going to win every battle. Sure a new dining hall at camp would be nice. Sure a Cub Scout World would do wonders for the Cub Camping numbers. It would be nice to find a way of subsidizing the cost of Jamborees. But we just can't do it all at once. We have about 30 -40 people turn out for our meetings. I know all of them. I don't dislike any of them. After the meeting there are normally about half of us who stop for a spot of tea!! Every now and then someone will ask "Why didn't you support me on such and such?" It's a fact of life that rarely if ever are we going to make everyone happy at the same time. Each and every person at that meeting is trying to get what he or she sees or thinks is the best thing for the youth that we serve. The normal Boy Scout or Cub Scout has no idea that there even is a board. Most unit leaders know that there is one but don't know or care who sits on it. They don't have to know or care,they are busy delivering the program to the youth in the unit. Sure they see the new buildings at camp. Some really like them, some are less than enthusiastic. They know little about the funding of these buildings or the hours that went in when the project went over budget. They see the DE at the R/T meeting they don't know that if a line of credit hadn't been approved by the board that the DE wouldn't have got paid last month. We I'm thankful to say don't have political factions, we have a group of people doing what they can to support the youth in our area and bring in as many more as can be recruited. Eamonn

A friendly visit from someone in the troop would go a long way to see that this gets done. Eamonn

While nearly all the troops in the district do not ask the parents to pay for the cost of rechartering, they do deduct that amount from the Scouts account or take the money from the troop fund. Your committee will have to decide how they are going to manage the money that the boys raise. Most troops in our area, including the troop my son is in, put all the money each boy earns in his own account. His troop asks that the parents do not allow it to fall below $50.00. Everything they do is subtracted from that account. At rechartering time that amount is taken out. If the committee/ troop leaders say that they need to buy something - Lets say five new tents at $200.00 each they divide the $1,000.00 by the number of Scouts in the troop. There are about 50 in his troop so they deduct $20.00 from each Scouts account. For weekend camp-outs rarely if ever does any money change hands it too is just deducted from the account. Trying to do activities for free is a very noble idea. Bad thing is that just doesn't work. It places way too much emphasis on fund raising and takes away from the program. It also seems that the older the Scouts become not only do the activities that the Scouts want to do become more expensive, but it seems that both the Scout and his family become less interested in participating in events that raise money. There are people who think that I'm very mercenary when it comes to Scouts and Scouting. I very strongly believe that Scouts and their families will pay for a quality program. The vision of the BSA, talks about fun and adventure, while fun is cheap adventure and what our Scouts see as adventure isn't cheap. We are doing what we can to prepare the Scouts that we serve to become good citizens. Learning how to manage money is part of this as is being thrifty. A free ride isn't teaching them anything. My son decided that he wasn't going to sell popcorn this year. He is going to the Jamboree next year and one way or another will go to Philmont. I have said that I will half of whatever the costs are. Him opting to not sell was a very dumb move on his part. I sold popcorn about $600.00 worth, which brought in about $240.00. I donated the profit to our district FOS.He lost out. If he had that $240.00 I would have matched it.That $480.00 would have gone a long way. Sure it hurts me a little, but I think he has learned a lesson. I do hope that the Scoutmaster and the committee take a long hard look at this before the troop gets underway. Eamonn.

From your postings, it does seem that something in the Council in which you serve has in the past not worked out the way it ought to have. I'm guessing this because you say that the Region is now running the Council. Again I'm guessing but I only know of a couple of reasons why this happens.Sad to say none of them are good. You don't say what went wrong in order for this to be happening? I think that someone,- The Camp Director?? Might have thought this was a good idea. In many ways it is. Still I know that the guys here in Southwestern Pennsylvania would tell the person who thought this up, to stick it in his ear, if they were already registered in some other position. I very much doubt if a camp is going to fire a quality adult staff member for not joining a crew. If I were in your shoes and I really felt strongly about this I would bring this up at the interview for the next season. If they say you have to join, I would voice my opposition and apply for a camp staff job at another council. Of course I'm not you and to be very honest am a little unsure what I would do. Eamonn.

Having got it wrong on the other thread about Councils and chartering - You would think that I would run a mile before trying it again. But here I go!! I have never seen a charter that was for less than a year. I have seen them for 18 months, but never less than a year. Maybe some wise person could let me know if this is true or not? We did hear talk about the camp staff forming a crew. Nothing ever came of it. One advantage that I can see is that all the camp staff would be members of the BSA. This is a good thing. I'm sure that it would help with some insurance issues and do away with some gray areas. For example if the Camp staff do an activity after camp to celebrate a great summer, they are not working or being paid, so the BSA insurance would cover them. It also does away with the idea that they know nothing because they are not BSA members. The Council is not the chartering organization, if it were one of the council key3 would have to be the executive officer. I don't see that happening. As most of the camp staff are normally already registered in a home unit, I don't think this would do much for membership. It might boost the Venturing total a tiny little bit. I might have a problem with the quality of the program that is offered, but I might have a problem with any unit which might be chartered by any other CO!! I fail to see how the council or the camp or anyone else can make a youth member who is already registered in his or her unit join this crew. It just don't work that way. The same would go for people taking leadership positions. The camp /council can't make you become a leader of a unit. It don't work that way either. I think that when this was started it was crafted in such a way that the Council is not the CO. If too many people are worried or upset, the charter will more than lightly run out over the summer and all these people who are worried or upset can go to bed and sleep the sleep of the righteous -ZZzzzz Eamonn

We do have two youth members who are supposed to do something on our Executive Board, but I have never seen them at a meeting. To be very honest the meetings are very dry and while maybe an older Venturer or OA member might get something out of them I fail to see why they would want to attend. It being a dinner meeting at $30.00 a plate doesn't help. I do not see what real use a couple of youth members are on the board, they can't vote on a lot of the stuff as they are not of legal age. As for the District Committee,everyone who sits on the committee has a job too do. Maybe in time if the OA Scoutreach mentor program takes a hold there might be something for them to do with the membership committee. A lot of this youth membership on committees and boards is just window dressing. I see what we do as serving the youth and having them there would do little if anything to further this. There is talk of inviting a couple of the youth OA members who are Section Chiefs to sit in on the area meeting. It too is normally as interesting as watching paint dry and there is a lot of items covered that really are not suitable for youth members.Not that it is a secret, but if it were to be retold the wrong way could do harm. I don't know what you mean by "Political factions"? We are there to serve the units and the youth members. I became District Chairman, after being nominated by the nominating committee, I serve for three years. The goals that we as a district have are nearly all covered in the Quality District requirements. When my term as District Chair is over, it would need me to be nominated onto the Board in order for me to keep my seat on the board. What do you mean by "Political factions"? Eamonn

I have never been a Scout Executive. I have gone head to head with a few Scouting professionals in my day. You don't say what led to the Scoutmaster asking the Lad to leave the troop. Was he working under the orders of the CO? If so the Scout Exec. Had no choice but to stand with the SM Are you sure that the boating types are not a Crew? Even still the Scout Exec. Is no way responsible for the program that is offered. I agree with what OGE, has posted about the serving of alcohol. The Scout Exec. May have been hired to do a certain job or take care of an area that is in need of help. Sad to say a lot of Councils are hurting big time when it comes to finances, while others are hurting in the membership department. If things aren't done it could be that the Council will receive a provisional charter, which is a way of sending the message"Buck up or else!!" The else is that there will no longer be a Council. If this Scout Exec is working away trying to get things done to improve or even save the Council, and there are people preventing this from happening. What choice has he but to remove these people? That mighty dollar is needed to secure the program in the Council and ensure that the Council doesn't end up just having a history. You can do a lot by asking everyone you know to up their FOS donation and do what they can to help and support the Scout Executive in his efforts. Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

$1,500 added to what you may have is a great start.However why are you keeping a reserve? The money was raised for the troop, the troop needs equipment. Equipment will help provide the Scouts a program that is fun and will provide them with adventures. Money in a reserve will earn about 3% interest (If you are lucky!!) Buy what you need. Look at the cost of the stuff that you will need for next year, build that into the budget and raise the money and then buy the stuff you need. Forget about the reserve, think about serving the Scouts that will be in the troop. Eamonn.

Bob does bring up a very good point when he says the need. It is far more important that a representative of the Chartering Organization is invited than the guys from the District or Council. I as Bob says,only visit units that invite me. If I ever on the very rare occasion do need to pop in to see a leader. I always apologize for doing so and do not want any sort of a fuss made. I admit that I do pay attention t what is going on and at times have been known to mention it. When I was District Commissioner, I might say to the Unit Commissioner, that I'd looked in at such and such a unit and everything was going well and give him a pat on the back or I might say that I'd looked in and was shocked that something wasn't going very well and ask him to see if he could help. If you invite me to a B&G, I munch away and unless the Cubmaster has asked me to do or say something I'm happy just munching. There are a lot of troops that never invite me to anything and I have never been to anything. The important person for a unit is the Unit Commissioner, he ought to know what is happening and why it is happening. During the fall a lot of Scouts from the district are busy with soccer, football, band. If I were to look in and see the poor attendance I if I wasn't aware of this might think something is wrong. The DE or the Scout Exec. really can't do very much to help a unit, so them attending or not attending a function is of little or no consequence. They can of course thank the leaders and give the Scouts a pat on the back, but in most cases the Scouts have no idea what these people do. Some Scouts may not even now who they are. Please don't ever think that these guys are special, they aren't. They are working to support your unit at a different level. Your unit is important to them and please believe me they do know what is going on. The unit Commissioner is reporting to the District Commissioner, who reports to the Key3 and the Council Commissioner, who reports to the Council key3. Everyone wants to see each and every unit do well. I get reports on every unit once a month and if things are not going well, I get weekly reports at our weekly key3 meetings.Some people do phone the DE if they have a problem. I have told our DE to ask them to call the Unit Commissioner. A DE can do a lot of harm trying to take care of things over the phone and this isn't her or his job. The delivery of the program is in your hands. You were selected to lead the Den. You should be working to ensure that the Den you serve is getting the best program ever. The DE along with the Commissioner staff are at the monthly round-table meetings. If you feel that there is something happening in the pack that needs attention, you have the Pack Committee and a Unit Commissioner, if that isn't working the District Commissioner is the guy to call. Eamonn.

Mark, As I read this I thought that you could expand it a little bit. What makes something right or something wrong? Why do we do things that are right? What part do your values play in something being right or wrong or your doing the right thing? Which of the Scout Laws cover your values? This might be a bit much for a SM's minute, but could be a nice camp fire discussion. - I think you know the setting I'm trying to get at. What you have is good for the SM minute. I think that maybe I'm a little bit like the painter who keeps adding brush strokes and never knows when the painting is done. I think I may have heard this some where else it went something like: If a branch in the forest falls when no body is there does it make a sound? When you are in Wal-mart and can take 3 pieces of bulk candy and are trusted to put a quarter in the little box to pay for the candy. No one is checking the little box or watching is it more right that you pay for the candy? Why? Eamonn

Have just checked my E-mail and there was yet another E-mail that was titled "Do Not Delete." I hate that. But it got worse, It went on to say that if I forwarded it to all my friends that something good would happen at 11.00. It then went on to tell me that the person who had sent it originally didn't want to hear of anyone deleting it!! The E-mail contained a lot of American Flags with Eagles in them and went to ask how I had slept last night? Them it showed pictures of how the troops were sleeping. The pictures were good. Then there was a prayer and another threat not to delete it. I deleted it. I have asked my friends not to send me stuff like this I really don't like the threats. Eamonn

Kristi From reading your posting it seems that the pack has some really big problems. We as a District have been planning, pushing, training, promoting the popcorn sale since late July. I can see a unit deciding not to participate. But I don't think a leader in the District could say that they didn't know. If I were in your shoes I would ask the CC why the pack decided not to participate. This is a committee decision and not up to the Cubmaster. It may be too late for this year but it should be on the annual plan for next year. Eamonn.

Our Scout Exec. was complaining that he never gets an invite to Eagle Scout COH. In the District we have 22 packs, nearly all invite the key3 to their B&G. They nearly all have these in February so it just isn't possible to get to all of them. We have four districts so the Scout Exec is really pressed. Most Scout Execs. Are happy to leave the unit activities in the hands of the District Executive. During my Cubmaster days we invited the Scout Exec and the District Key3 and the Unit Commissioner. We expected the Unit Commissioner to attend. We also invited the FOS guy to come and do his stuff -We knew that he would be there. Eamonn.

Hi,welcome to the forums. If you look back to the pack budget, you will see the basics.Rechartering, Boys' Life magazine along with the cost of insurance. Say a ballpark number of $30.00 Per Scout. You might be able to borrow camping equipment from another troop or the Council to get started. I very much like the idea of troop/patrol equipment. This is very expensive. Please buy the best quality that you can afford. Visit another troop and ask to see what they have in their QM's store. Some stuff is easy to get. American Flags can be donated by your Congress man or other elected official. Ask your Chartering Organization if they would like to donate the troop flag. When the pack that I was involved in wanted a Troop Flag the church said no, but they put a request in the church newsletter. One family not only donated the flag but also added $5,000. Their son was an Eagle Scout and a policeman who had got killed. At Scout Sunday the flag was blessed and a few more parishioners came forward with a few more bucks. You do need to come up with a wish list. While you really ought not go out begging for this stuff it is better to have the list on hand when somebody asks if they can help. If you can tell them that a tent costs $250.00 you will do better than just saying a few kind words and coming away with $20.00 Budgets are fine but they can at times be just wish lists. First where is the money going to come from? Most times it has to come from Fund Raising events. You can have events where all the money goes to buy equipment. Dinners and breakfasts are good for this as everyone is working together and there are no clear lines that anyone made more than anyone else. You might decide to take a percentage from all the Fund raising events. I'm thinking that you will be starting with a Den that is crossing over? To get all the stuff you need I would guess that you are in the $1,200.00 range. Coleman has a nonprofit price list, which is worth looking at you need to apply on line at the Coleman web site. Don't stop doing outdoor activities while you are getting the cash. You don't need your own equipment for summer camp. Or to do day hikes. There are a lot of good plans for patrol boxes on the net. Again a visit to a local troop is a good place to start. It really is a good idea to start off as you will continue, buy Patrol equipment. For now I wouldn't go too much for back packing equipment. The day to day running of the troop is not that very expensive. Eamonn.