Eamonn

There are a lot of places where you can find out about the OA. Looking over your previous posts, you mention that you have had a group of Lads doing something with the OA. So I'm a little puzzled by your question. There are no secrets in the BSA.Everything we do is open to and for the parents of the Scouts we serve to observe or witness. While the ceremonies of the OA are for members, if a parent wanted to see what their son was going through they would be admitted to watch, While it is a youth organization, the head of each Lodge is the Scout Executive who holds the title "Chief of the fire," The Lodge adviser is a appointment made by the Scout Executive. Membership is by election, your troop should have a youth member who is the OA Rep. He working with the Lodge officers should hold annual elections in each troop. If you contact the Lodge Adviser in your Council, I feel sure that he will be able to dispel a lot of the myths and secrets. When I look at the direction that the OA seems to be taking I am both pleased and very excited. I have long admired the work and cheerful service that OA members have performed at camp and for camp, now it seems that there is a move afoot to break into other areas or at least become more visible in areas that they were already working in. I think we will see a lot of good being done by the OA and OA members. Eamonn.

Since I haven't taken the 21st Century Woodbadge, I can't comment! But there doesn't seem to be much interest in this topic. Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Ed, this is what you posted on 11/16/2004. Since then you have added six more postings. For a guy with "No comment" that seems to me to be a lot. While no one would ever question your right to post your feelings or your view point, I would wonder how you explain "No comment"? By your own admission you have not taken the course and while I could be wrong but by posting this you infer that you don't know much about the topic? You continue by saying that there isn't a lot of interest in the topic. I for one was very interested, but from what you posted I thought that you had no interest in it. I must have been wrong. Could it be that your renewed interest is not in the topic and that you are just using your postings to take shots at other forum members? I will understand if "No comment" is your reply. Eamonn.

Bob, While it might seem like splitting hairs, all the sessions in Wood Badge do deal with Team development, not group dynamics. We in the forum will never be able to be a team. While some forum members do seem to come together as smaller groups. We will never really ever get past the Forming Stage. I suppose if we were to have some sort of a goal we might be able to move in a set direction. But without that we will always remain a group. While there are Forum Moderators, there are no Leaders who could if we were a Team help us move from stage to stage. I am in 100% agreement that the team development model, is a tool that both leaders and team members can use in Scouting and with the Patrol method.We in Scouting do believe that Leadership is a skill which can be taught. Helping teams move from the orientation stage through dissatisfaction toward resolution and finally to performance is the job of the leader. Eamonn.

Yes I know that I should and could give you the line about the selection of leaders. Who selects who and the stuff that you more then lightly already know. Sure I agree with all of it. Still when push comes to shove, if I'm the Scoutmaster I want and need people that I can trust. People who will assist me. If they can't, they need to go find a Scoutmaster that they can assist. You can bet your last dollar that when rechartering comes around I will enjoy talking to the Committee chair. and the COR, and letting them know that I no longer require the services of that ASM. "Dear John, Many thanks for your past services....." Eamonn.

Help!! As ever I have gone and got myself a little confused (What's New About That!!) In the 21st Century Wood Badge Course, Bruce Tuckman, the educational psychologist who came up with four stages of team development in 1965 (He added a fifth in 1977) Is mentioned as a background note. The Forming, Storming,Norming and performing are not part of the course. This is replaced in the course material with the Team Development Model, by Ken Blanchard. He uses the: "Pickup Sticks", "At Odds", "Coming Around", "As One". There is a copyrighted diagram which I think is taken from : The One Minute Manager Builds High Performing Teams. While knowing the stages that a team goes through is an important part of leadership, neither Tuckman or Blanchard intended these to be used as tools for evaluation of past performance. I have read most of the books that Ken Blanchard has written, I have to admit to not knowing much about Bruce W. Tuckman. I have copied his explanation of the stages including the fifth stage. Trying to answer Bob White's question about Storming or "At odds". This is a time when the group members are experiencing a lot of dissatisfaction,and the morale of the group is low. Some members of the group will present differing points of view and there could be conflict within the group and even the task or goal could be brought into question. "Why are we doing this?" Or "This is not worth doing!" Might be heard. Even though the group is at odds or in a storm, this is where the group start to understand each other. It might also be a time when a better way of dealing with or going about the task at hand or arriving at the goal might be found. It might also be a time when it become clear who the best team leader might be? Storming in Group Development is not to be mistaken for Brain Storming. Stage one: Forming Individual behavior is driven by a desire to be accepted by the others, and avoid controversy or conflict. Serious issues and feelings are avoided, and people focus on being busy with routines, such as team organization, who does what, when to meet, etc. But individuals are also gathering information and impressions - about each other, and about the scope of the task and how to approach it. This is a comfortable stage to be in, but the avoidance of conflict and threat means that not much actually gets done. Stage 2: Storming Individuals in the group can only remain nice to each other for so long, as important issues start to be addressed. Some people's patience will break early, and minor confrontations will arise that are quickly dealt with or glossed over. These may relate to the work of the group itself, or to roles and responsibilities within the group. Some will observe that it's good to be getting into the real issues, whilst others will wish to remain in the comfort and security of stage 1. Depending on the culture of the organization and individuals, the conflict will be more or less suppressed, but it'll be there, under the surface. To deal with the conflict, individuals may feel they are winning or losing battles, and will look for structural clarity and rules to prevent the conflict persisting. Stage 3: Norming As Stage 2 evolves, the "rules of engagement" for the group become established, and the scope of the group's tasks or responsibilities are clear and agreed. Having had their arguments, they now understand each other better, and can appreciate each other's skills and experience. Individuals listen to each other, appreciate and support each other, and are prepared to change pre-conceived views: they feel they're part of a cohesive, effective group. However, individuals have had to work hard to attain this stage, and may resist any pressure to change - especially from the outside - for fear that the group will break up, or revert to a storm. Stage 4: Performing Not all groups reach this stage, characterised by a state of interdependence and flexibility. Everyone knows each other well enough to be able to work together, and trusts each other enough to allow independent activity. Roles and responsibilities change according to need in an almost seamless way. Group identity, loyalty and morale are all high, and everyone is equally task-orientated and people-orientated. This high degree of comfort means that all the energy of the group can be directed towards the task(s) in hand Stage 5: Adjourning This is about completion and disengagement, both from the tasks and the group members. Individuals will be proud of having achieved much and glad to have been part of such an enjoyable group. They need to recognize what they've done, and consciously move on. Some authors describe stage 5 as "Deforming and Mourning", recognizing the sense of loss felt by group members. I will, I promise get around to putting this is a Scouting context. If we are looking at Team Development as being the same thing as Group Dynamics?? I don't remember a session on dynamics - Unless they were talking about me!! (Joke.) Eamonn.

Much as I like to see the Bridging Ceremony done at the B&G. I can see where you are coming from. In fact I still have one part of my anatomy that is numb from the last really long B&G. But we won't go there. They had saved the ceremony till last and by the time they got to it half the people had left the hall. The Leaders had tried to keep things moving. Still the meal was a covered dish, so it was served Buffet style. That took a long time. I did a quickish FOS presentation (Under 10 minutes) The Cub Scouts from each Den performed something either a song or a skit. The Parish Priest, did take a little time explaining how the church had been happy to have chartered the pack for 51 years. (Yes it was the pack that I had been CM of) How about just presenting the Webelos Scouts the AOL at the B&G and then doing the Bridging Ceremony at the March pack meeting? I do think it is nice for the other little fellows to see the ceremony. Eamonn

I echo all the things that have been posted. I really do hope that he will be happy in this new troop. With all your dealings in the Advancement Dept. You might want to offer your services to the District Advancement Committee. We have a couple of parents that sit on our District Advancement Committee they have been a great addition to the District Committee. There are times when we forget that out youth members do have parents!! Even though we are all parents. I think I remember you posting that Mr Goodkid had been active on the committee of the "old" troop. I'm guessing that he has taken early retirement?? from that position. It's just a thought, you could sign up and attend the next New Leader Essentials course when it is offered. Then you would be all set and ready to go. The Council or the District does also offer training for Committee members. We don't as a rule get a big turn out, so we only offer this once a year as a Council training. Again my very best wishes to you all in your new troop. In the wise words of Tony the Tiger I hope it's Grrreat. Eamonn

I had to think on this one a while. I see where you are going but don't think this will get us there. It is a lot easier for me to answer the last part first but that would be cheating. I did notice that the last time you mentioned this you didn't use the terms that Ken Blanchard uses. I'm going too. Where I am having my big problem is that I'm a little unsure what the goal was /is? I think the goal was to supply mich 632 with information about the optimum patrol size. In fact looking at what he posted more closely I see that he was trying to do a survey. Something I did overlook when I replied. In fact me not really looking at what the goal was and me getting it wrong is part of the reason why we were all at: Pickup Sticks. We all took off in different directions. The goal was sat sitting there but we were all happy to shoot off in different directions. Our next step was that we became At Odds. The goal remained the same but the morale of the posters fell off. It was if half of us were shooting for the goal or at least in that direction. Sad to say I think this is where we left it. Hopefully if we had continued we would have found common ground and reached the Coming around stage. All of us seeing the goal, maybe still coming at it from different directions but we would have Come around. Maybe given enough time we would have all seen the goal and worked As One - All of us working as one heading toward the goal as one. We would have come through Orientation - Pick Up Sticks Dissatisfaction - At Odds Resolution - Coming Around As One - Performance. The Catalyst? What changed the goal? I think came when we started looking at combining Patrols for camp- outs. Once this crept in some of us (Me!!) Lost sight of the goal. As for the length of time each step would take? I think that as we don't have any way of knowing what is going to happen next or who is going to do what next there is no way of knowing how long each step would take. Someone or something could pop up and we might have to go back to the start. It's getting late I will sleep on this and come back to it later. Eamonn

Far be it for me to speak for the powers that be - Who ever they might be. I think the 21 st Century Course is designed to be a Council course. Our course was a cluster course, so I did try and keep the out of town people within "Meeting Distance." Of course there are advantages and disadvantages. I liked the idea of seeing how things were done in other Councils. But the real truth is most of us will do our Scouting in our own council. Eamonn.

mich632 I know that I really ought to spin off. Please forgive me for not doing so. Bob and Barry, I could I suppose sent you both Private messages. I could I suppose move on and pretend that I never read both of the postings. Please believe me when I say that I hold both of you in very high esteem and do respect you both. I have not taken the time to look back over old or previous postings or threads. I am sure if I did I would find that most of the time I am in agreement with Bob. Sure the stuff that Bob posts is not warm and fuzzy, but when it comes to delivering the program to the Scouts Bob has to my mind been on the money. I have used a lot of the ideas that Bob has posted and a lot of what he has posted has defiantly got my little gray cells to go into over drive. Barry,after me, you seem to have as much fun in this program as the Scouts and Cub Scouts do. What Bob may lack in the warm and fuzzy department you make up for. Again If I were to look back there have been times when the world is right and God is in his heaven and things have gone so well for me that I have used the "I Love this Scouting stuff." as a closing. We do in these Forums have people who are very passionate about certain things or certain areas. Some get very worked up about First Aid, for others it's Religion or the plight of poor under privileged Scouts. For the most part even if we don't agree with what they are saying or posting, we or at least I can sit back and admire their passion. Bob is very passionate about this program.While I love Scouts and Scouting, I do not come near having the same passion that Bob has. Rarely if ever when Bob posts something is it wrong. Sad to say, some in these Forums mistake this passion for smugness or arrogance. This leads to personal attacks on Bob Which are wrong. People ask a question. He gives them the correct answer and it isn't what they wanted to see. So they attack. Barry you know how much I enjoy your postings and your take on things. I hope you will continue to allow me to enjoy them. Eamonn.

BadenP, I think you missed the point that my last posting was a joke. I posted earlier what I think a DE does all day. DE's come in all shapes and sizes just as there are DE's that do an outstanding job, there are other that don't. The DE that served our District for the last eight years was one of the very best. The new Lad that started on Oct 1st? The jury is still out on that one. As a very active District Chairman who is also a Council Board Member At Large (I also serve on the committee that oversees the Salary and renumeration for our professionals) Along with serving on the Area Committee. I see a lot of DE's. I hear a lot of reports about DE's. I do think that we the volunteers are guilty of not treating them with the respect that they deserve. While every DE should understand that most volunteers work during the day and phone calls in the evening are to be expected. I think people phoning after 9:00 PM unless there is a dire emergency are just being rude. I feel the same way about weekend calls. Treating DE's like dogs-bodies is an insult. At times our expectations as to what a DE knows are way too high. While there are some who have a wealth of Scouting knowledge, there are others who know very little. This does not in my book prevent them from being great DE's. As long as they admit that they don't know and do their best to point the person asking in the direction of the person or people who do have the knowledge. I have to admit to being very taken back at a Regional Meeting last month which Scout Professionals attended at how many new DE's were there and how many had less than a year in. It would seem that something isn't working. I have spoken to a lot of people who should know why we are having such a tremendous turn over and as yet no one can put a finger on it. I sat in on the interview of our new DE. The Field Director was in charge. He kept on saying about being a sales person. When he did the introductions his big line to me was that the new DE is an Eagle Scout. I'm still trying to put them two factoids together? I explained to him that Quality District was a very high priority in our District and that Membership and Finance were the areas that he would be doing the most work. I'm not sure as yet if he really understands that I was really serious. Our DE's are lucky in that they do not have any program or Council assignments, that is left to the Program Director. Still it is a hard job. Made harder because most volunteers do not know the pressure that is put on DE's to ensure that they meet Membership and Finance goals. Eamonn.

If helping the younger Scout reach First Class is the best program that we can come up with for the older Scouts? - Reruns of Fear Factor seems to take on new meaning. I feel sure that we can do better. Eamonn

Cubbobwhite, please forgive my English sense of humor. I hate them DE's that are androids they seem to start out K, but once the battery runs low on power there is only one course of action - Promote them to Field Director. When their eyes start flashing red it is time to send them to Scout Executive reprogramming. Yes give me a real person any day of the week. I'm sorry I just couldn't resist. Eamonn

I don't see any requirement for Rank Advancement that requires a Scout to help Scouts on the trail to First Class. In fact I think that unless he is an exceptional little fellow the expectation that you have is far too high. Scout Spirit is always a tough call. I do not believe that grabbing a kid and making wear a Scout uniform is going to turn him into a little Angel. We are trying to help young people make ethical choices over their life time by instilling the values of the Scout Oath and Law. I thank the good Lord that while my son is not a little Angel he is a good kid who really likes to please people. Which sounds great, but at times he uses the fact that people like him to "Pull a fast one". He is a kid and is a boy!! While life would be a lot easier if there was some kind of yardstick or benchmark that we could use to measure Scout Spirit. Sad to say there is no such thing. We need to work with each Lad as an individual. Each and every boy is a special case. If he is failing to do stuff that is covered in the Scout Oath and Law. We need to have the Scoutmaster have a chat with him. The Scout Oath says "... I will do my best.." The Scoutmaster needs to find out if this Lad is really doing his best. Working with the Lad they need to set goals. These goals need to be something that can be reached. As for everyone watching over him. Please stop watching over him to make sure he doesn't get out of line. If you are looking for the bad stuff you sure as heck are going to find it. Start watching over him to give him a pat on the back when he does things right. Each and every time he makes an ethical choice or decision we are making progress, so is he. Let him know that he is doing a good job. As for his Mother, sit her down and explain what Scouting is all about. Tell her that Eagle Rank is something that her son has to want a goal that he has to set. Let her know that everyone in the troop is there to help and support her son in reaching his goal. But the goal is his and his alone. Make her aware of all the good stuff that her son does and is doing. I will bet she hears the bad stuff from others. Tell her that her son is working hard to do the good stuff more and more. You might also want to let her know that the Eagle Scout Rank is not easy and only 4 or 5% of Scouts reach it. The Scoutmaster could use his Scoutmaster minute to reinforce living the Scout Oath and Law. Along with setting goals and reaching them. As a group of leaders you might want to spend some time looking at the mission of Scouting and the words in the Scout Oath. Scouting is a strange game even when you think that you have done your best it asks you to come back and do better. I try and remember how I was when I was the age of some of our Scouts. I was wearing the Scout uniform but there are still people around who will attest that I was no angel. Still thanks to a lot of caring and loving people I made it to become a Queens Scout. I think if it wasn't for these people who cared I never would have made it. Eamonn

We have in the past gone over this at great length. Bob White is spot on when he says that the information you need is in the resources that he listed. We treat each Scout as an individual. There could be a lot of good reasons as to why a Scout might miss regular troop meetings or outings. Blanket rules only serve as a disservice to the people that we are here to serve. If you want to do a search through Search Forums, you will see all the different points of view. But at the end of the day you need to look in the BSA material. Eamonn.

While 99.9% of the time I agree with the stuff that comes from National. I do think that allowing Scouts to also be members of a Crew is not such a good idea. Both Venturing and Boy Scouting are good programs.However to date no one has been able to put forward a good enough argument that will convince me that allowing this multiple registration serves any good. Reading your original posting I have to admit that when you said older Scouts (14+) I was surprised that had 14 year olds in the older Scout category. Most people who say that they are having problems with older Scouts say it is with the 16+ Scouts. I think that I can understand how a group that has had frequent changes of leadership will feel let down and fall into bad habits. The job of sorting this mess out can be a real chore. Still someone must have done something right in order to keep the membership as strong as it is. It does sound to me that the Troop and the Crew are working too closely. I see the relationship between a Troop and a Crew as being much the same as the relationship as that a Pack has with a Troop.The pack offers their program, with its' own leadership and it has its own committee.While there may be the odd occasion when the pack invites the troop to participate in a cub event or help with a Webelos Scout outing. It for the most part does it's own thing, while the troop does its own thing. I would hope that once a year the SM and the PLC would meet to plan the annual program. They would do this for the troop. They need to make this plan for the Scouts that are in the troop, recognizing that the troop has boys of all age groups. The Troop is an independent unit. Just as the pack does not take the troop program into account when they make their annual plan. The troop should not take what the Crew is doing when they make the annual plan. The same should hold true for the Crew. The Crew holds its election of officers and they plan what they are going to do. Regardless of what the troop is doing. If you are a leader in the troop, that is where you work - With the troop. There are Leaders that wear both a Troop hat and a Crew hat, just as there are Boy Scout Leaders who are in the pack. They need to remember that Venturing and the Troop are two different programs and not allow the two to become some tie-dye mix of both. If I were the Scoutmaster, I would of course wish the local Crew or the Crew that had the same chartered partner as the troop all the best will in the world. I would had them to my list of resources. Sure if they had some sort of expertize in some area I would want the boys in the Troop to participate in this if the PLC said that there was an interest. If I was the Crew Adviser,I would welcome the idea of helping the troop and use this opportunity to show off how great the Crew is. If the Officers in the Crew gave it the green light. As you in your posting mentioned Scouts, I think that you are with the Troop. You don't list what your position is? If you are the SM. I think if you have not already done so you need to meet with the PLC.Tell them that the next meeting will be the Annual Planning Meeting. Ask them to go back to their Patrols and brain storm. The Patrols are to work on "Making Troop 123 the best show in town. Explain how a brain storming meeting works. You need to get hold of all the School Calenders, District and Council Calenders, dates of community events anything that might lead to a conflict in the plan that you are going to make. You might ask the Patrol Leaders to check and see if there are any other dates that are not on the calendars. Arm yourself with as much information about all the places you think that they might to go. Meet with the SPL, explain to him that he is in charge of the meeting. You will be there for support and will help if asked. Let the PLC make the plan. They should examine all the ideas that came from the Patrols. Your job is to try and do as little as possible. This can be really hard. The other week a friend of mine in the UK said that he was looking for a Crew that might be interested in forming an exchange type program. They would be willing to put up a crew from the USA and then the group from the UK would come over here. I thought that this was a great idea I had a crew all picked out and spoke to the Crew Adviser. He agreed it was a great idea and said that he would ask his officers. There I was like a bull in a china shop and there he was doing this the way that they should be done. You say about the troop camping at the same old place. You may well be right, but did they choose to go to this new site? If they didn't can you really be disappointed when they didn't buy into going there. Eamonn

Sad to say 2001 was my first National Jamboree.I had gone to the World Jamboree in 1975 as a very young ASM. Our 3rd ASM for this Jambo, was a youth participant last time. He attended the last Word Jamboree in Thailand. He is a super young man and I feel very privileged to have him on the Leadership Team. This will be my last time going with a Troop, after this I hope we can find someone to pass the torch too. I hope that there will be a place for me some where on staff. I was talking to a friend of mine who works in the Relationships Division at National he said that he would take me if I became an ordained minister!! He of course was joking. I think right now that God isn't ready for me and the devil won't take me. - Anyhow that's what I hoping. Eamonn.

Much as I hate to be a kill joy. No not everyone has that problem. My son is 16, loves being the SPL. He only ever misses a Troop meeting when there is something going on at school or for school. While all Scouts promise to help other people at all times, if when they attend a troop meeting all that is expected of them or from them is to work with the younger Scouts- Is it a wonder that they want to stay away. Scouting is supposed to offer fun and adventure. Collecting the older Lads and calling them a Venture Patrol is not what being a member of a Venture Patrol is about. Allowing them to meet as a Patrol and having their Patrol leader present their ideas to the PLC and then having an adult follow through supporting them and their ideas will go a long way to keeping these older Lads active in the troop. These older Scouts do have a lot more things going on than the younger Scouts. Planning needs to done well in advance, communication needs to be open and very clear. At this age you are dealing with the boy not his parents, sure they are still around but the boy is now deciding what he wants to do or not do. The big thing that most adults have got to learn to do with this age group is listen and listen and listen some more. They really hate to be preached at. They are very trustworthy and expect the same from everyone. They will help the younger Scouts out from time to time. But the main complaint that I hear from older Scouts is that they want to do things away from the younger Scouts. From the tone of your posting it would seem that you have a very big down on these Lads. Maybe if you lighten up a little and try thinking about Fun and Adventure dealing with them will be a lot easier for you and better for them. Eamonn.

I really do want to thank the Camp staffers that have taken the time to post in this thread.Please know that I very much respect you and want to thank you for what you are doing. Your "Take" on what being a Camp Staffer is to be very much admired. However, I still think that we have to be careful. I am a volunteer in this organization. I gladly donate my time to do the job or fill the role that I was offered. At this time I do not do anything for this organization outside of being a volunteer. I have offered my services in areas that I am normally paid for. I offered and they accepted. If the BSA were to ask me to do this full time, I would need to be paid. I have a good idea of what people who do the same job that I do are paid and I would expect the offer of employment would come with a salary within that range. My requiring a decent salary would in no way be any reflection on what I feel about this organization. As my son is only 16 he hasn't really had any real need for money. Sad for him, his father is not the nicest of fathers. He has said that he will not pay for a car and he will not pay for the extra money it will cost for car insurance. The insurance alone is going to cost $1,000 a year. He is an active Scout, who would be a good if not great addition to our Summer Camp Staff. He has been asked by the Scout Executive and a few others. At present he has said "No - You don't pay enough." This is coming from him not me. I suppose he could work at the camp and save enough to meet his expenses. There are seven weeks when the camp is open and a week for staff week, then about a week after for tear down. When he goes to college his expenses will be a lot bigger. Without an offer of real money he will not even give working at camp a second thought.He just will not be able to afford it. There are a lot of people who would love to spend the summer working at camp who would do a great job, but they just can't afford it. This is hurting the programs that we are offering the Scouts who attend Summer camp. Maybe the young people in our area are just mercenary, but as I look at the age of our camp staff I can't get over how young they are. Most will not return when they go off to college because they can't afford to work at camp and save enough for the coming year. I am aware that money doesn't grow on trees and that Scout Councils do not have the money to subsidize the camp in order to pay the staff more money. This would mean raising the cost of the camp for the Scouts that attend the camp. If the cost becomes too high the attendance will go down and there still will be no money to pay the staff. I wonder what would happen if National were to come up with a salary scale for camp staff? I know that as a parent of a boy who attends camp I would gladly find an extra $25 or $50 to send my son to camp for a week if it meant that the quality of staff members would improve. $50 is only the commission on about ten cans of popcorn. Or an extra $1.00 a week. Eamonn.

While I am not a merit badge counselor. I am often asked to help out with the Citizenship in the world merit badge, because I am still a British and an Irish citizen. Most of the Merit Badge Counselors for this badge do ask the Scouts to pick two countries. A lot of the Scouts will ask me how to become a British and or an Irish Citizen, when they interview me. Other Lads will do a search on the net. As you are the MB Counselor, you are very much the Boss. While you can't add or subtract requirements you can be a nice guy and maybe ask them to list 3 or 4 ways to become a citizen of their chosen country. I would go with 3 because I'm such a nice guy. You can of course leave it open and see what each Scout comes up with. Some will hit you with so much stuff that it will amaze you, while others will hit you with less than half a page. But as you are the Boss what you accept is up to you. Eamonn.

Have you been to the National Web site? ( www.scouting.org) Follow the link from "Other BSA web sites. There is tons of info there if you click on the guide book. Hope this helps. If you get stuck in the trading post near the NE-Region, I will be spending some of my hard earned cash. Last Jambo I bought all the ASM's Jamboree Beach towels as my thank you for putting up with me. Sad thing was that I forgot to buy one for myself. I see that they are selling off Jamboree Jackets at a huge discount. There isn't very much info and the picture isn't that great. Does anyone have one? Should I spend a few more of these hard earned dollars and buy one? I did stock up on the Jamboree shorts that were really cheap last time. Even though they didn't have the cargo pockets. Which I never use any way because they are way to small for anything bigger than a Zippo lighter!! Did anyone visit the Indian Lore display located n the Merit Badge Midway last time? I went on the Sunday after it stopped raining!! The man in charge was really outstanding I stood there for at least half an hour with drips from the tent running down my neck. I was in total awe. I didn't catch his name. Still he was outstanding I hope that he will be back in 2005. With his permission I would love to video tape his presentation. In 2001 there was some mix up and we didn't get the bucket to carry the waste water to the disposal area. I had, as luck would have it got 5 gallon buckets with lids for each of our Scouts. My idea was that they could store their sleeping bags in them when they went out for the day. I had also brought a couple of hundred black plastic garbage bags. So when the waste water carriers weren't there we shared the buckets with the troops near by. I also asked each Scout to bring two rolls of toilet paper, which the Quartermaster looked after. When the toilets were cleaned the toilet paper got soaked. We also had the Scouts carry small packs of Kleenex and a small bottle of hand cleaner in their fanny packs, which had two water bottles. One big change we are making this Jambo to our equipment is that we are using metal tent stakes made from re-bar. That hard soil was a killer last time. Eamonn I have just noticed that the Jamboree 2005 has it's own Forum. Way to go Hops and Thank you Terry.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari? At least that is What I think you meant to say Beaver. Still it has been said: Parva leves capiunt animas. Eamonn Una voce

I never had much luck with Brothers in the same Patrol. As Bob says the new Scout patrol is great. However if you don't use it. I would ask both the boys where the little fellow should go? I had an older Brother in the troop when I first joined he wanted nothing to do with me. So there wasn't a problem. I also agree that Parents do not run the troop. Eamonn.

Backpacker, I do see that you addressed your last posting to Bob White. However as you posted it on the forum and didn't send it as a private message I hope you don't mind me adding a few comments. There seems to be some misunderstanding about what "By the Book" means. I see the things that are printed in the G2SS not as guidelines but as policy that must be followed to the letter. In this forum we have at times discussed at great length what the words mean. I kinda think we all know what the guide is saying or the point that it is try to make. When we attend training's there is a lot of material presented.Most of it is the material that comes from the BSA,at times some presenters feel the need to add other material that they feel is important or participants ask questions that are not covered by the syllabus. This is all well and good as long as the stuff that they add is correct. We have a program that is offered to other organizations. Most accept the program "As is" Some adapt it to suit their needs. While we hear a lot about "Uniform Police" and other groups that enforce Scouting. There are no such groups. We offer the program to groups that share the same values that the BSA has. These groups select the people who will deliver the program. We offer all sorts of things that will help in the delivery of the program. The methods of Scouting are what makes our program different to most if not all other youth groups. I see some of these methods as a must. The ideals of Scouting is something that if we don't agree with we are in the wrong organization. Some methods should be easy. Hopefully if we are offering a Scouting program Outdoors is a no brainier. Adult association ought not pose a big problem. Advancement might take a little bit of thought and planning. Some of the methods might take a little more time and should be marked as "Goals". Uniform could be a goal if you have just become a leader of a troop that didn't wear full uniforms. The Patrol could be marked as a goal depending on the situation. Reading these forums there seems to be a lot of people who want to hand over the running of the troop to the Scouts. Which sounds wonderful. Bad thing is that they seem to forget about training the Patrol Leaders and supporting the Patrol Leaders. I think that it took me a long time to really use the Patrol Method, because I was doing it wrong for such a long time. Of course while we were doing it the "Eamonn Way" things were a lot easier and ran a lot smoother. Once I really handed over the running of the troop to the Patrol Leaders things were very rough. At first the boys were very unsure what to do. I still felt the need to jump in and take over - Even though I tried to convince everyone including myself that I was only advising. All the time I was doing it wrong the troop seemed to be doing well. The bad thing was that I wasn't allowing the Scouts all the opportunities that a true Scouting program should. Even once I "Got it" There was a time period that passed until the Scouts in the troop really understood what was going on and how the system really worked. Of course there were times when things didn't really work out. We had Patrol Leaders who were not up to par. Still I like to think that I worked harder with these Lads than some of the others. It is possible to run a youth group with the same aims as we have and do a first class job of doing so - But without the methods it really isn't Scouting. Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

I'm with you and your way of thinking. While the BSA does not have a rule that states Scouts have to be in uniform while traveling. I do like to see a troop or pack in uniform. Last year I was having lunch in a local fast food restaurant, there was a troop there. The little Lads looked tired and some still had not seemed to have been able to locate their combs. I spoke to the Scoutmaster, who said they were returning from Gettysburg. Thats about a six hour drive from where we were at. These guys must have got a very early start. As I returned to my table I overheard two little old Ladies remark how nice it was to see Boy Scouts and how cute some of them were, they went on to say how they never see any Boy Scouts any more. While this wasn't in the district that I serve it was in the Council. When we think about marketing, we seem to forget that people do like to see the youth members and when they see a uniform they know what they are looking at. Of course it might not always be viable to have Scouts travel in uniform. Our OA Lodge had 22 members travel to NOAC by van. The trip took 3 days, so they wore activity dress. On the way home they stopped at different places of interest and did change into full uniform. It does seem a shame to spend all that money on a uniform and then not wear it. Sad to say OJ, who does have several full uniforms, has taken to not wearing the shirt. He now carries it and puts it on when he "Has to." This is the kid that wants all the newest and latest patches on his uniform?? One day I will wake up and understand the the thinking of a 16 year old. When that times comes I will be a little old man saying to my pal that you never see Scouts any more as we munch on lunch in a fast food restaurant that is offering a discount for old people. Eamonn