Eamonn

First the important thing to do is find out what the Lad wants. Does he want to join his pals or work on the AOL? If the AOL is something that He (Not anyone else!!) Really wants to complete, then I would do everything possible to help him reach this goal.And yes I have no problem playing loose with the rules. We are talking about a little fellow who made a bad choice, but now wants to correct it. This in my book is what we are about, helping Scouts make choices. I would view it differently if he was 17 and hadn't completed an Eagle Scout Rank requirement. Eamonn.

What does he want the Scouts to call him? I would ask him and use that. Eamonn

Hi Fred, I am sad that the course didn't meet your expectations. I do think that things are getting better, we now have a lot more Cub Scouter's taking and Staffing the courses. They bring a different slant to the course. The first new course I staffed was very much an new course with old Boy Scout Staffers. While they/we did stick to the syllabus, there seemed to be a lack of understanding. Here is where I have to Duck!! I think that because there is so many more adults in our Packs that a Leadership course is more needed than it is in our Boy Scout Troops. If you ever get the chance try and watch the video about the new course. IMHO, I think that the team that put the new course together were trying to preserve some of the things from the old courses, mainly the Boy Scout course. The new course in the UK no longer uses Patrols, which of course means people are not going around saying I used to be a whatever. In some ways this is good - When I first took the course back in the very early 70's, at Gilwell Park there was no singing except at the campfire. I was a very proud member of the Cook coo Patrol. My so called friends on this side of the pond take great delight seeing me having to get up and sing a solo when we do the Back To Gilwell. When possible I try to just sing with the Bears, as I was in the Bear Den at NECS58. It might have been possible to present the new course, without using Patrols and Program names, as they have done in the UK. I can't help thinking that this might have upset a lot of people. I think I have posted about my going to lunch with the Director of Communications at Gilwell Park a couple of years ago. He said that at a Gilwell Reunion (Something everyone who can afford it should try and attend!!) He was between two guys, one from Japan and one from the USA. At the campfire they sang Back To Gilwell, these two had tears in their eyes and the English people present didn't know the words. I feel sure that you will be selected to staff a course in the very near future and you will be able to add the Cub Scout prospective. Eamonn.

While all of this sounds like a lot of fun, I do have some concerns that we might forget why we went to camp in the first place. When these activities become more important than the program we have to rethink them. Eamonn.

I have ordered a life time supply of the new Badge Magic stuff. Sad to say I am severely sewing impaired. Yes I do have one knot on one shirt upside down. This was pointed out to me by a unit commissioner, an old guy who I nicknamed Pockets. While I never called him this to his face and I also know it was very Un-Scout-like, the reason for calling him Pockets was that he was about as useful as pockets in your underwear!! I wouldn't tell the Nitpicker, I would just enjoy the fact that he is a sanctimonious twit and leave it at that. Eamonn.

How old is the Lad? Eamonn.

Hi EagleScout316 We have in the past looked at this and in my view the best thing to call people is what they want to be called. I much prefer that people call me by my first name and am not keen on being called Mr anything. My son wants to be called OJ,at this time he doesn't want to be called Oliver. I ask people what they want to be called,some people like Bill, Bob and so on. Some little while back there was a good thread on nicknames,these are nice if the person who is being called the nickname is happy with it and it doesn't cross that very fine line and become teasing or hazing. Some people are very proud of their titles. I have two very dear and close friends one an MD and the other a PhD. In everyday conversation I call them either Doc or by their first name and they are both fine with that, however at a recent dinner where name tags were used they were both very upset when their name tags didn't include their title. Back home I know several people who have titles most are happy to not use them, I however make it a rule to ask first, in fact most of these guys will let me know after a few "Your Lordship or Sir's" what they want. In my son's Troop the adults are a mix of people who are Mr Somebody and people who are called by their first name or nickname. The Scouts are happy and don't seem to think that using a leaders first name is in any way a sign of disrespect and on the other hand don't seem to think calling someone Mr. Is out of order. So it boils down to what do you want to be called? Eamonn

http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=ba&c=ja Everyone on the bus will be required to have a photo ID, and drivers must have a valid driver's license. Hope this helps Eamonn

Ditto to all that has been said. Eamonn

I have read a good deal about Scoutreach, I am sold on the idea. However I'm a little unsure if what we in the Council that is stuck with me, is the direction that I think we need to be heading. A couple of years back the Field Director hired an Americore Volunteer. He was to work with our Scoutreach Packs. Soon after we got this guy we started a couple of packs in low income housing areas. Having signed up HUD as the CO. Halfway through the year the guy quit. It turned out that he had not been to any of these packs for months. This year we got another Americore Volunteer, he went and signed up every child that he met: Boy, Girl, anyone under the age of 18 was signed up. Then he quit. The Council found an under-employed Scouter that they paid to go into these units. It seems that he goes in once a month with a craft, the kids do the craft and he is on his way. I was preparing a Scoutreach presentation for our OA banquet, so I called the guy to find out what OA members could do to help. He tells me that they don't have a lot of kids. He goes on to say that all the kids are girls!! There are no boys. The memo that came out a few weeks ago about Schools and Government agencies not chartering units came as a bit of a surprise. The FOS Community chairman I have is a super nice guy, he is a member of the Lions Club. This club and its members make up a good part of the District community FOS campaign. Talking with the new DE, he is under orders to get this Lions Club to become the CO for one of these packs. This pack has no leaders, no committee and no boys. Due to the transient nature of the people who live in these apartments they more than lightly never will have any real leadership, at least not with the set up we have now. The Lions Club is no where near the unit and I don't see the members ever even entering the area where the apartments are. Our last DE wouldn't even drive there, she had her 80 year old Dad drop her off and pick her up, because she was worried about her car. Do the kids in this area need Scouting? You bet they do, but lets work with real CO's. Maybe spend some money uniforming and training local people, heck while we are at it a few male cub scouts might be a good idea. Eamonn

OK,while I have not spent time formulating these ideas into anything that might be called a document, these are some thoughts. This program is our program. If we move away from the idea of meeting goals and move toward establishing real quality, people or organizations need to be accountable for using our program. This should come from National. Something that informs each and every Chartering Organization what obligations they need to fulfill in order to use our program. While what these obligations might be is up for grabs and need to be looked at long and hard, the penalty for non-compliance should be that we refuse to allow that unit to be chartered.Or a provisional charter. It seems that we really do not have the man-power to deliver Commissioner Service to all of our units. If this really is the case (I think it is.) Maybe we need to rethink and replace what we have. Just as we have Training Teams, why couldn't we have Unit Service Teams or Commissioner Teams? Some units that are well run and have good adults working in the unit really have no need of our help. We just tie up valuable people assigning them to these units. Other units need special attention, so lets send in the team. If we cover sending these people into the units that have in the past refused our help in the agreement with the CO. They would have no choice but to allow us in. We need to improve our communication with the CO. Why don't we send a quarterly report to the CO from the Service Team stating how the unit is really doing. There is one unit in our Council that meets with each and every leader before they recharter. Why don't we adopt this idea and have a member of the team sit in on the meetings? Members of the team would need to be well trained and understand that they are there to serve. If we go with a team, we could have team members who do specialize in certain areas. These are just some thoughts. I kinda think that some people will have very strong feelings about them. I also think that the National Office is never going to stand up to our Chartering Organizations. Eamonn.

Welcome Scout Commish, yes there is a lot of stuff in this thread. Bob, I think you knew that I was aware and had used the Commissioner Role page in the past. Maybe I was unclear, I was hoping that you would post a Bob White outline. I do think that we need to recognize that most newcomers to Scouting come in as a way of spending QT with their Son. The average guy on the street has no idea what a commissioner is and with that in mind there isn't going to be people banging on the door to sign up. There is no reason at present why a CO can't demand that adult leaders attend training. But maybe they know more about the new leader than we do? Maybe Mom the Den Leader, who has four kids and works full time is just not able to attend round-table and training's? Surely you are not saying that we turn her away? Maybe we need to take a real long hard look at the role of the DE. If we as a small Council are spending nearly 25% of our budget on salaries we need to know that we are getting some bang for our buck. No I'm not saying that anyone is getting rich. However if we are to have one DE per 1,000 youth members and we are paying approx $35,000 a year we have to expect service at the local level. I have no problem with UC's working with unit committees, which would include COR's, I do however want and expect the District Executive to meet with and work with the Unit Executive Officer. I know a lot of great Scouting type people who are just not trained or equipped to deal at this level. I as a District Chairman am always on the DE's case to get out there and involve the unit Executive Officer. Eamonn.

I do not see myself as being anything more than the average fellow in Scouting. People tend to remember me because I talk funny and because of the mop of white hair. I do read a lot and have a good memory. Scouting is my hobby, I really enjoy the people, what we do and I hope that at the end of the day we are doing some good. While I never pretend to have all the answers, people in the District do look to me at times for advise and answers, because I read a lot and have a good memory I try and provide the answers and because of BSA training I can ask the right questions so that I can go very light on the advise. Maybe I live in a fools paradise, but so far in our area the "G" (God, Gay, and Girls) questions are not on the agenda. In fact if anything the majority of people when asked are very pro BSA. The community where I live look at Scouts and Scouting as being something that is good and wholesome. I wear the uniform because it is the uniform. I wore the uniform when I was a Lad, because it was the uniform and we all wore it. Not wearing it wasn't an option. While there are areas in the BSA that need attention, there will always be areas that need attention. I am concerned about the decline in Cub Scout numbers. However I believe that once the unit leaders are given the tools to "Go get'em" Along with the support from Councils, Districts, we will turn this around. I have for some time been worried that the goals that are in place are becoming bigger than the program and are in fact hurting us. I'm hoping that others who have more influence in such things share my concerns and will in time correct this. I have been active in Scouting programs in two countries and have relatives that are active in three other countries, I also have worked with Scouting units from other countries. One thing that I see is that we all are trying to do much the same thing and as far as the quality of the program goes, it is very much dependent on the adults who lead the unit. I have seen packs and troops led by excellent leaders who understand this game and give it true purpose and I have seen leaders who deliver what I see as their own take on what they think Scouting should be. This of course begs the question is some sort of a program better than no program? In the District I serve we have 42 units of this 42 I would say that only about 10 or 12 are by the book units. Of the Troops most are led by Wood Badge trained leaders who have adapted the program to suit how they see or think the program ought to be. These leaders know what they are doing is not the way things ought to be run and continue doing what they want anyway.Sure we could yell "Off with their heads", or "Fire the lot of them!!". But we know that isn't going to happen. In fact if we were to lose these leaders we would lose the Scouts and there would go the Council. Sure there are people like me who try and nudge, shame, preach, pester and beg these leaders to get back on the right track. At the end of the day we come back to the old horse to water theory. For now I'm OK with nudging,preaching, pestering and begging in time I might go back to being part of a unit and trying to set an example and showing that it can really work. However I think I have lost some of my faith and now believe that the guys who don't want to do it never will do it. I see the glass as being half full and the stopped clock as being right twice a day. If this is complacency, then I'm guilty of it. Summer is coming and we will have approx 1,500 Boy Scouts at our Council Summer Camp, about 1,200 Cub Scouts will attend Day Camp. Kids will march in parades, parents will attend Scout picnics and about 50,000 lucky Lads will attend the National Jamboree. A lot of the stuff I have worked on and spent time on will bear fruit. Could it be better? Sure it could, but it could be a darn sight worse. Eamonn

Somehow Grassfire managed to get my E-mail address, more than lightly from a friend of mine who was trying to be helpful. It seemed to me that they spent more time trying to sell me signs for my yard and other stuff than really doing anything. Eamonn.

I have to admit that while I did read the "Doctor making house calls" the idea didn't work for me and while I did make mention of it, I never really thought of it as being that important. While I am not sure and I think that if I'm wrong someone will correct me! But didn't the BSA sometime back do away with Commissioners? I seem to remember our Council Commissioner saying that they had but due to problems with getting charters in on time they brought them back. If the only real work we have for Commissioners is rechartering I wish someone would have told me. I was some time back admonished in these forums for being a little too tough on the Commissioners in the District when I was serving as District Commissioner. My problem was that while all of these people were super nice people many of whom had given a lifetime of service to Scouting and the BSA,they were all very old. Some due to failing eyesight were unable to drive at night, others just were not up to doing the job. I inherited a nice old Lady, who had been a Den Mother when my mother-in-law was also serving as a Den Mother. She was my Assistant District Commissioner Cub Scouts. I swear that if I heard "Well I don't know!!" one more time I was going to be arrested. The elderly gentlemen that seemed to make up the Boy Scout Unit Commissioners were what was left over from a time when all of our Boy Scout Commissioners were Free Masons and belonged to the same lodge, most of these men were in their 70's. It seemed that no one ever mentioned the idea that Scouting appointments are for twelve months. These guys and girls seemed to think that they were lifetime appointments. Add to this an underlaying feeling that they were superior to the people serving in the units. Changes had to be made. Sad to say, while I love our Council Commissioner dearly, I received no support from him, in fact his main concern was that my changes would change our national ranking that shows the ratio of Commissioners too units. I would be interested to see a job description of what is or might be expected of a unit commissioner. Eamonn.

I posted before how pleased I was with our council JSP (a new acronym!!) We have permission from the Fred Rogers Foundation to use a likeness of Fred on the patch. Mr Rogers, was a WQED Pittsburgh production, but Fred was a lifelong resident of Latrobe Pa. His Widow has agreed to attend our shakedown weekend and will be presented with a patch. I am not a patch collector or trader but I am really pleased that this is working our so well, maybe for 2010 Arnold Palmer will agree? We did name the airport after him!! Eamonn.

Lynda J While I have served as both Camp and Program Director for Day Camp and have had a RN on staff to take care of medications, in fact with a policy much like the one you have posted only I didn't allow anything other that Bee Sting pens and Inhalers. However looking at the wording of the G2SS I have to wonder if I was overstepping the mark? I can't remember if there is a Standard or if there is how it reads.I think the way I now read it the choice is with the parent. I don't know if location would come into play? Eamonn

Hey Bob, I think this must be about the longest post you have ever posted!! I have no idea if anyone from the National Office looks in or not. I know that I did read something a while back where the National Office asked if I went to certain web sites that deal mainly with Scouting, several were named Scouter Network wasn't on the list. I have not seen, heard and have no knowledge of any proposed changes to Commissioner Service. However I do trust you and know that you are not just flapping your gums. As you know I spent about five years as a District Commissioner. I am not going to take offense at your profile of a Unit Commissioner, mainly because you were clever enough to use the wording: "at who usually gets tapped as a UC". While I don't know what is happening elsewhere I do know that I have never selected an active unit leader to serve on the District Committee or as a Commissioner. My thinking is that this just defeats what we are trying to do. How can we support our units if we are taking away the very people who are leading the units? To do so would be just daffy. I do think that you may have gone a little over the top with the "Family Doctor". I did appoint a Assistant District Commissioner to look after Emergency Cases. But I preached the "Friend Of The Unit" more than anything else. I in fact raised a few eyebrows by telling the Commissioner Staff that they needed to be warm and fuzzy. As for recognition for Commissioners? Most of the Commissioners I know have no idea how they came by the recognition that they have. Wrong as I may have been, I used to look over the records just before the District Dinner and surprise them - They had no idea what they had done to merit Arrowheads, keys or other awards. As I sit here I can see a Distinguished Commissioner plaque which came with a really ugly bolo tie. I have no idea what I did to earn it. I do know it was never a personal goal,it just arrived. So I agree that the promise of some badge is of little or no consequence. I am not yet ready to start thinking about making attendance at anything other than safety training's mandatory. I firmly believe that people will attend and will even pay hard earned money to attend quality training.While the on line fast start training is very convenient and standardized, I can't help feeling that something is missing and wonder why more people show up for the NLE having never heard anything about Fast Start? I am a big fan of the NLE training, I wish I could say the say about the Cub Scouting Specific training's. As for Commissioner Training? It just isn't happening in our area. The College of Commissioner Science, closed up shop and moved without leaving a forwarding address. For some reason at least in our Council Commissioner Training does not fall under the responsibility of the Council Training Chairman.Commissioner Training seems to just float aimlessly, kind of like a kite without anyone holding the string. Bob, I am yet again confused!! You state: " it is the IH and CR that the UC should be meeting with regularly not the unit leaders". But then go on to say "Commissioners should be the hosts of and quality monitors of all training". I can't help thinking that you are going easy on the DE and the Professional Staff. The people who serve on the Executive Board and the SE are selected in part because they know where the big bucks are. Those who serve on the District Committee take care of meeting District Goals. When we meet as a District Committee I set 30 day goals, people are accountable for meeting these goals, the DE is responsible for checking their progress and reporting back to me, at which time I if need be follow up. We have strong Membership and Finance Committees. Surely you will agree that agreement to charter a unit is an agreement made with the CO and the BSA and as such we need to send in the professional person to oversee that the agreement is being kept by both parties? Could it be that we need to be more selective in who we allow to be our Chartered Partners? Sad to say I think I was the twerp who posted that we are not retaining 50% of our Tiger Cubs. I think that we need to do a better job of selling the idea of Stewardship to our pack leadership and really push the idea that these little guys are why we have a pack in the first place. You and I must be reading different reports, I have seen that we lose more Cub Scouts from the Bear Den than any where. I will admit my information is dated 2002. I do agree that poor programs send youth members packing faster than anything else. Is it really that hard to make the program full of age appropriate Fun and Adventure? While I don't pretend to know all the answers, heck I'm not sure what all the questions are. I do think we need to take a long hard look at what we want from the Commissioner Staff, if all we want is a group that will ensure that charters are in on time? That ought not be too hard a position to fill. I think that we need to look at moving Commissioners over to the Training Team, involve them more with training. We now at long last can track training on Scoutnet. Lets really make the District Goals more to do with what is happening in our units. Membership goals are fine, but goals for retaining the youth that we have recruited would tell a better story!! I have heard a lot of stories about what the Commissioner Staff do in other Districts and in other Councils, sad to say a lot of what I hear about them doing is about as far away from Commissioner Service as I can imagine. Commissioners who run every Camporee, Commissioners who do all the FOS presentations( Yes I did my share as District Commissioner, because I was invited to the event and was there anyway!!) These guys and girls are doing everything except what they are supposed to be doing!! While it seems no one ever admits it, there comes a time when I have looked at the District, seen that we were not going to reach the goal of Quality District and have used that year to clean house. Is the troop with no advancement, no outdoor program, with Dad as SM and his son as SPL that meets in the SM's house to play video games really a troop? (Lord knows who was signing the charter the COR had been dead and buried for three years!!)Did I suspect this the year before and let it slide? Sad to say I did. In fact the UC refused to have anything to do with them!! Bob, you have covered a lot of stuff in one posting. Please don't think that I'm in any way trying to be disagreeable, that is not my aim. Maybe we need to break this down into bite size pieces. Topics like what is the present real role of the UC? And What do we think it ought to be? What do we do with the CO that refuses to participate? How or What can we do to involve the COR? (Post cards only have a very limited success rate.) You start the ball rolling and I'll join in - I may not see eye to eye with you, but I'm sure you will get my little gray cells working. Eamonn

While I think that the course works better over the 2X3 Days. The October Sky presentation seemed to work better on a six day course. EagleInKY, a number of people on our course who had taken management training said much the same as you have, I don't think there is very much that can be done. In the UK the Scout Association is making money selling their course to corporations British Airways and BT are sending their managers to Gilwell to take the course. lynn, I made our Council buy new padded chairs for our course I heard about one council that used wooden benches, the ones they used in their dinning hall!! That must have been hard in all the wrong places. I know that my back couldn't have made it. One participant got so upset during the Game of Life that he armed himself with a big black marker and put a line through the first Scout Law that was written on a flip chart. Things got really intense. Maybe a little too much so for me. Eamonn.

Keep going - Don't Stop now. Eamonn.

Welcome. Eamonn

You should receive a pre-course assignment. A list of 20 questions. This list is a very useful tool. Take the time to really think about your answers. You don't have to share them with anyone unless you want too. Just before the course take the time to go over it again as things may have changed. Bring the list and your answers with you. If you have any special needs be sure and let the Course organizers know before you arrive. Knowing the correct wording of the Cub Scout Law and Promise, will be very useful. The course is very worthwhile and the tools you take home from it will benefit all the people you work with, not just in Scouting but also in your family and employment. It is a lot of fun and the course and the staff are there for you. Everyone wants you to get the most out of it and enjoy it. Without you there is no course. Eamonn.

I must have the wrong thinking cap on!! What is a TLC? And I'm unsure what you mean by homework?? It does sound like you have some great ideas. Eamonn.

The hut would be the property of the chartering Organization, and they would if everything went wrong end up with the hut and any bills that were outstanding or on going (Standing charges for utilities) If your CO is the church that would be the best arrangement. I don't know what sort of area the City Park is in but I would worry about vandalism. Private property can cause headaches about ownership, the property would have to be deeded over to the CO or the Council unless there was some sort of rental agreement. The big thing is to make sure that the CO is aware of what is going on when and they don't one day wake up to find that the troop is gone and they are left holding a Scout Hut that they have no use for. Eamonn.

As so often happens in these forums I find myself agreeing with more than one poster. Eagle Dad makes some very good points as does mich632. Train them, Trust them, Let Lead, only works if we follow the formula as it is written. A lot of what we do does come back to "Do My Best". Different Lads are good at different things and their best might not always live up to our expectations. You and the leadership team need to do everything that you can to catch this Lad doing things right and reward him for that.He may need a lot more support than any other PL in history, but that is what Scoutmasters are for!! A meeting with him where he gets to set down his goals on paper might help this might work best after you have made sure that he has taken the Patrol Leaders Handbook home with him for a couple of weeks - A couple of "How are you coming along with it" might also help. If the Lad was elected to become Patrol Leader, he would have to do something really terrible for me to even consider removing him. Scouts can learn just as much from making the wrong choice as they can from making the right one!! Eamonn.