Eamonn

When a Scout joins in a game, he can without knowing it come away with all sorts of "Good Stuff" He might come away with learning about teamwork, planning,sportsmanship. In fact a lot of what we adults spend six days learning at Wood Badge can be taken from playing games. The take home message is a good one. A Scout leaves his Scout Handbook, he can decide to sing the song or do the dance and make a fool of himself. I fail to see anything good coming from this. Unless you want to say making a fool of yourself is good. Scouting provides a lot of opportunities for Scouts to get up and be showmen, this is different than a Lad hamming it up in order to have his Handbook returned. It is not about knowing the Scouts, it is about doing the right thing, because it's the thing to do. Eamonn.

I can't help thinking that the reason for Cub Scouting is to prepare these little fellows for Boy Scouts. You might want to look at the programs that are offered to the Webelos Scouts. Maybe they could be more about getting ready for the big adventure that is to come. Eamonn.

This hypothetical news flash for the most part sounds like what has happened in the UK. Scout Groups can be sponsored by organizations or they can be stand alone Groups. While trying to find the "Outlander Promise" in the POR (policy regulations and rules) on the UK Scouting web site. I thought it strange that it wasn't there. The gay thing wouldn't upset me that much. I do however think that Scouting without God would be very shallow. With that in mind I would find another organization that I thought was closer to my values. Eamonn.

Hi Bob, Are the leaders untrained because they are new? Will they in time take the training? How do we know that all the homosexual scout leaders are homosexual? I have problems with the word avowed!! Back home the District Commissioner is very much the "Top man". We had Ernie as our District Commissioner, he held the position for all the time I was in Scouting in the UK. (About 20 years) Ernie was never married and did at times have nephews living with him. He was very active in the Masonic Lodge. He was a wealthy man and was generous and an all round nice fellow. I never ever in my wildest dreams thought about Ernie being anything but Ernie. Ernie passed away some years back. I was discussing the differences between Scouting UK and the BSA with a very close friend, who is a very high ranking policeman in the Metropolitan Police. He informed me that Ernie had been homosexual. It seems that one of Ernie's "Nephews" had gone missing and Ernie had asked my friend to help find him. Ernie and I were never really close. I admired him and respected him. I know that he did a lot for the District and for Scouting. I don't know if any of the Leaders in the District that I serve are homosexual. I never asked. There could well be a couple that have never admitted it openly. I see no reason why they are unable to carry on if they are happy to do so. They would not be setting a bad example to the youth if they never come out. Eamonn.

What happens when a Scout refuses to sing the song or do the dance? The Scouts playing the game can look at the game and the rules and decide if they want to join in or not. This is a game. If you want your Scout Handbook back you have to act like a twit because leaving it was a twitish thing to do!! Is hazing. Eamonn

I just want the Quail-Notes. What a resource for bird-brains. Eamonn

jkhny You have been posting in the forum for just over a year. While many of us, me included do at times use the forum to vent or let off steam. So far you have not managed to say anything nice about the BSA or the Council that you serve. I really think that if I was as unhappy with things as you seem to be I would pack my bags and move on to a organization where I would be happy. Of course that's just me. Maybe you are happy casting doom and gloom, if that is the case I really do feel sorry for you. Eamonn.

Hi Beav, You know any wise words that I might post. You know how this game ought to be played. You know what needs to be done. OJ, is a good Lad. I was unhappy with his reading skills so we (Her That Must Be Obeyed and I) made him redo second grade. Which is a decision that I think really was for the best. He is going to be 17 in July and will finish 10th Grade. He always has been an active Scout, rarely if ever missing a troop meeting or camp-out. He was already in a Den and active in Cub Scouts, when we made him redo the second grade. He earned his AOL and joined the Boy Scouts at ten and a half. Things were great in the Advancement department while he was at the elementary and in the first year of junior high. Then he started to find new things that he wanted to do. Up until then he was doing stuff that we wanted him to do. Soon he was playing soccer, in the choir, doing track and active in the OA. I have lost track of how long he has been a Life Scout. All he needs is to complete his project and BOR and he could be an Eagle Scout. I think we are lucky that he is a grade behind, I think if he was where he should/could be he just wouldn't have the time. A lot of Lad zoom through the first few ranks and then find other activities that they want to follow, slowing them down is doing them a great disservice. Eamonn.

I will be Camping with Troop 412 in the Northeast Region sub-camp 4. Just follow the line of happy smiling Scouts!! Eamonn.

Without wanting to take anything away from the Pope, but I can't change or be responsible for anyone else, how they act or what they think. I can only change me and responsible for me. We honor the Pope by trying to follow his example. "Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me." Eamonn.

The passing of a friend is always hard. I would hope that when my time comes that my friends will remember the good times that we have shared and a Wood Badge dinner would be the ideal setting. I feel sure that your Eagle Patrol friend really has gone to the Happy Land. Eamonn.

I thought I had pasted the link at the top. The shock of the amounts awarded must have got to me!! Eamonn.

While Eagle being above the rest is questionable? Having attended the course and worked on the goals that will help you reach your vision and mission, you have helped Scouting and the BSA reach its vision and mission. This is without question a very good thing and you are to be congratulated. Wood Badge is not an end and we all need to take the time to reflect where we have been and look at where we are going. It is important that we also time the time to celebrate our success's and enjoy reaching mile posts. I hope you got to do that at the dinner. Congratulations and well done. Eamonn.

We had everything planned and ready for the Troop to arrive at the Jamboree on Monday. There has been a change of plans and we will now arrive on Sunday. The invite to arrive early had nothing to do with my extremely good looking knees, but was made so as to help keep things moving on the Monday. I think it will be better for our Scouts. They will have a little extra time to get the site set up and a day to go and explore, finding out where everything is. One of the ASM's from the other Troop said that he could if need be keep his Scouts in their site till Monday!! I just raised my eyes toward Heaven. I'm really looking forward to meeting as many Forum Members as possible. The Beaver is bringing bug juice and Bob White has a surprise. I just hope it has nothing to do with him singing!! Only thing worse would be my singing. Eamonn.

What the Uniform should be? It should be worn correctly. It should be the sign of a Lad who belongs to a program that is filled with fun and adventure. It should be worn by adults who are enthusiastic and doing everything they can to ensure that the program is filled with fun and adventure. No uniform will ever be right for every activity so don't wear it to go swimming, wear something else. Eamonn.

The ACLU is alive and well and making money. Yes the ACLU is profiting in such cases as those against the Boy Scouts, the Mojave Desert Veterans Memorial and every public expression of America's religious history and heritage. They are making millions of dollars in taxpayer-paid "attorney fee awards" authorized under the Civil Rights Act, 42 U.S. Code Sec. 1988. While the law was paved with good intentions - to ensure legitimate victims of civil-rights violations could obtain representation - it has been exploited by the ACLU in First Amendment "establishment of religion clause" cases in which there are, in fact, no attorney fees incurred by the ACLU or its plaintiffs, who appear to be "mascot plaintiffs" with de minimis claims like "Oh my God, I saw a cross!" Elected and appointed officials at the local, state and federal levels have been literally terrorized from standing up to the ACLU in fear of enormous attorney fees being imposed by unelected judges not answerable to the taxpayers. As far as is known, not a single American judge has had the courage to exercise discretion to deny attorney fees to the ACLU under 42 U.S. Code 1988, which is the sole authority for awarding attorney fees. Delegates at the National Convention 2004 unanimously adopted Resolution 326, "Preservation of the Mojave Desert Veterans Memorial," which calls on Congress to amend the law and end judges' authority to award attorney fees in cases brought "to remove or destroy religious symbols." The Department of California sponsored Resolution 326 after a federal court in Riverside, Calif., for the first time allowed the ACLU to pursue a precedent-setting lawsuit to remove a solitary cross at what is now the Mojave Desert Veterans Memorial. That case, Buono v. Norton, illustrates the ACLU's fanaticism and disrespect for veterans, and it exposes the threat of further legal attacks on veterans' memorials by the ACLU or others. In 1934, a private citizen strapped two pipes together to form a cross and mounted it on a rock outcrop in a remote, privately owned area of the Mojave Desert. The purpose was to honor the service of World War I veterans. President Clinton, as one of his last acts, issued an executive order incorporating the area in the Mojave National Preserve. The ACLU seized on that fact to file a federal suit to remove the cross in 2000. A district court ruled for the ACLU and awarded it more than $40,000 in attorney fees. Veterans protested, and Rep. Jerry Lewis, R-Calif., who represents the area, achieved legislation officially establishing the site as the Mojave Desert Veterans Memorial. The legislation authorized an exchange of the 1-acre site for five acres from a private owner, placing the memorial on private land. However, that did not satisfy the fanatical ACLU. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals held the case was "not moot" because the land exchange, although legislatively authorized, was not complete. Further, the court found the lead plaintiff - the first and sole remaining plaintiff - had legal standing to complain of civil-rights injury. The lead plaintiff, Frank Buono, is a retired Forest Service employee who later moved to Oregon, but claims civil-rights violation and injury because he sees the cross when driving back on visits. ACLU's attorney fee award for representing him was increased to $63,000. Upon such de minimis dross as this is constitutional law being made by judges, and the ACLU is profiting financially, at taxpayer expense. They're still at it. The ACLU filed a motion in District Court in December to declare the land exchange unconstitutional, claiming it doesn't comply with the spirit of the injunction. Other examples of ACLU abuse are multiple, nationwide and glaring: - The ACLU reaped some $940,000 in settlement from the City of San Diego when it surrendered in ACLU's litigation to kick the Boy Scouts out of Balboa Park. The Boy Scouts are appealing. The American Legion has filed a friend-of-the-court brief supporting the Scouts. - The ACLU received some $500,000 to drive the Ten Commandments out of the courthouse of Alabama Judge Roy Moore, notwithstanding the fact that the same Ten Commandments are on the massive doors and the wall of the U.S. Supreme Court itself. -Portland Public Schools were ordered to pay the ACLU $108,000 in a case brought for an atheist who objected to the Boy Scouts being allowed to recruit during non-class time. I have to wonder what comes first money or civil liberties? $50,000 per Commandment!! Eamonn.

Hi packsaddle You said Eamonn, I'm not sure I understand your last post. Could you elaborate? Mr. Westley, is trying to say that the DoD allowing the military to use the BSA to assist in its training is somehow linked to the Establishment Clause. Barnes-Wallace, 275 F. Supp. 2d at 1276 (finding that lease provided to Boy Scouts for city park was not result of religion-neutral process and thus violated Establishment Clause). While some of the arguments may be the same I fail to see how these two matters are linked? Eamonn.

Knowing that in the very near future I could be half way Down a rappelling tower and Hops might be at the top!! But putting that aside. Kudos to both for managing the Mr. Smith Thread and keeping it to only one thread. I was sad to see the thread on Commissioners closed - But if the line was crossed it was crossed. I do at times have to remind myself of the 5th English Scout Law. A Scout is a brother to all Scouts. That doesn't mean that we will always see things in the same light, it doesn't mean that I am always right or that the other person is always wrong. If something sounds like twaddle, looks like twaddle and passes the twaddle test. I deem it to be twaddle and ignore it. I do like reading and seeing things that make me think about where I am and if the other guy could be right. Giving the little gray cells a work out is good. Having Hops and OGE has helped us not fall into the situation we had a little time back with Jason and his many clones or was it clowns? Both these Scouts are doing a good job and I think the Forum has improved because they are here and because of what they do. Eamonn.

How do we get from City of San Diego's leases to the Millitary use of the Boy Scouts for traning ? I see no mention of the DOD or the Jamboree . Eamonn

There are no words just a hole. I have loved and admired this great man for such a long time. When the Pope came to Ireland, Scouts all over Ireland lit fires from coast to coast at sunrise, I helped the troop that 5 young cousins were in. We then all drove like crazy to Drogheda, which isn't that far from the Northern Irish border. The Pope went into the cathedral, which houses the relics of Saint Oliver Plunkett, after who my Dad, myself and OJ are named. Because of this we missed the Mass at Phoenix Park in Dublin where he delivered an open-air sermon to more than 1.25 million people - nearly a third of Ireland's entire population. I was at Wembely Stadium. It was packed with young people singing "He's Got The Whole World In His Hand". I was in Toronto,my cousin is married to a detective who was one of the team that guarded the Pope. I will get over my sadness and will celebrate the life of this saintly man. After being a very active church member and an alter boy, who at one time thought of becoming a priest, in my college years I questioned my faith. This Pope had a lot to do with me coming back to the church. Pater Noster, qui es in caelis, Sanctificetur nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum, Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo, et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie, Et dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem, Sed libera nos a malo. Amen. Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. God Bless Our Holy Father. Eamonn.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec2004/n12062004_2004120609.html Support for Boy Scouts to Continue, Rumsfeld Says By Donna Miles American Forces Press Service WASHINGTON, Dec. 6, 2004 Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said the Defense Department has a "longstanding, excellent relationship" with the Boy Scouts that's mutually beneficial and should continue. Rumsfeld, a former Eagle Scout and Distinguished Eagle Scout himself, said Dec. 3 during an interview on Fox News Channel's "The O'Reilly Factor" that he'll work to make sure that relationship doesn't come to an end. "This is a good relationship. It ought to continue, and as long as I am here, I'll do everything to see that it does," he said. At issue is an American Civil Liberties Union lawsuit challenging DoD's support of the Boy Scouts. The ACLU suit centers on the Scout oath, which acknowledges God. The group said the oath violates Scouts' religious liberty and that government sponsorship of the program is tantamount to religious discrimination. DoD, however, has a departmentwide policy that prohibits official sponsorship of any nonfederal organization, including the Boy Scouts. Officials said the department entered into a limited partial settlement that reiterates this policy. Army Lt. Col. Joe Richard, a DoD spokesman, said the partial settlement will have minimal effect on the military's relationship with the Boy Scouts. "The settlement does not prohibit the Department of Defense from supporting the Boy Scouts of America," he said. "Boy Scout units are permitted to meet on military bases, and military personnel are allowed to remain active in Boy Scout programs." Legislation in both the Senate and House of Representatives aims to protect DoD and other federal agencies that sponsor the Scouts. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, also a former Scout, introduced legislation last month stipulating that no federal law should limit any federal agency from supporting the Boy or Girl Scouts, including meetings held on federal property. Another resolution in the House would allow DoD "to continue to exercise its statutory authority to support the activities of the Boy Scouts of America, in particular the periodic national and world Boy Scout Jamborees." Rumsfeld wrote Frist in late November to support a proposed concurrent resolution. "The Department of Defense takes great pride in its longstanding and rich tradition of support to the Boy Scouts of America," the secretary wrote. Many Thanks for the link to a local TV Station. Now take a look at what the DoD is saying. Eamonn.

And your point is??

RMV Thanks for a very enlightening post. I spent a lot of time working with and serving inner-city Scouts. Not as any sort of a Scoutreach or special program, just a young (Yes I was young once!!) Scout Leader in the UK. At the risk of being disagreeable I must disagree about the methods of Scouting. Sure some of these Lads have made bad choices in the past, some continue to do so after they join Scouting. But we I would hope will always try everything we can try to bring a Lad back into the fold? I would be interested to see what methods don't or wouldn't work? Having finished being disagreeable, I do think that we are close to being on the same page. Eamonn.

Back home when I was SM, parents didn't want to attend camp and get down and dirty. Last summer the troop that OJ is in took about 28 or 30 Scouts to camp which is over 90% of the troop, they also had 16 adults. Many of the adults were there just to keep an eye on their kid. Other than answering calls of nature and eating many didn't leave the troop camp site. It seems that the Good Scout Fairy, takes ten bucks from them, sends them to the Scout Shop to purchase a Scout shirt and there is a magical transformation, just like that they become ASM's. These people are too busy to attend training's and in my view add little to the program. While the turn out for campouts is way down less than 50% (I think because as well as trying to find dates when the Scouts are free, there is now a need to find a date when Father and Son are free.)I have on occasion had to visit the site where they are camping and much the same as Summer, there is a parliament of Dads sitting around a fire doing nothing and adding nothing to the program. There are about 36 Scouts in the troop. Parents provide transportation and they have a trailer for the equipment. For trips that are a long way from home they rent mini buses. Large troops can be a real pain.If you want to try and run troop events. I am still up in the air about the ideal size for a troop. When we got above 80 we seemed to lose something, but when we split the troop that didn't work. Trying to get 100 people to camp was a nightmare, just getting the equipment there was a real headache. The good thing that happened was that we started having the Patrols do more stuff as Patrols. We also had ties with our Venture Unit and had some of the older Scouts do stuff with them on a limited basis. Maybe? If you started looking at doing things as Patrols and not as a troop the parents would be an easier task. You will need a really good Quartermaster staff and open lines of communication. The end result can be very beneficial. You will really be using the Patrol Method. The Parents will have to do stuff, not just sit around the fire!! There will of course be times when the Troop will want to camp as a Troop and there isn't much that can be done about that. Eamonn.

I have not read the book in question. I have heard that PBS did a documentary on the subject? I didn't see that either. Douglas S. Smith Jr. is responsible for what he now seems to admit doing and as I posted it is very sad. Sad for his family and those close to him. I don't know if cases of abuse were or were not mismanaged in the past. I do know that millions of kids have gone through our programs and are better people for doing so. I am not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, I didn't even spent the night at a Holiday Inn. I think maybe a 16 year olds record would be hard to investigate or look at being as it would be a juvenile record? Maybe the Gentleman from New Jersey could help me out on that one? We as an organization are doing a lot to try and prevent our kids from being abused. I like to think that we as individuals are going out of our way to train our youth members, prevent situations and report suspicions. If people were harmed in the past and there is proof of negligence the courts will come into play and whatever damages that are proved will be paid for. Eamonn.