Eamonn

1. Is Mr. Z morally straight? Mr Z. Has been selected by the chartering organization and has filled out the adult application which has come back with no red flags. 2. Do you have enough information to determine if Mr. Z is morally straight? Do we ever have all the information? 3. Is Mr. Z performing his duty to God? By signing the application and by being selected by the CO,I would have thought so. 4. Should you say anything to Mr. Z about this? Should you report this to the Committee or the COR? Does it matter if you know that the CO, a church, strongly condemns such material? I might if I thought that youth members were using his house for merit badges. I don't think this is appropriate material for young people to be looking at. 5. If you were the head of BSA, how would you go about determining whether a person with a subscription to Playboy is morally straight or not? How would you determine whether such a person should be allowed to be a Scout leader? The selection of leaders is done by the CO, some might see Playboy subscription in a different light than others. The head of the BSA has no part in this unless the National Council were to make a policy which stated that no Playboy subscribers would be allowed membership in the BSA. Eamonn.

Many Thanks for your kindness and your prayers. I have to admit to reading the E-mail, but not really taking it all in. It turns out that Mrs. Boots was one of OJ's teachers when he was attending elementary school.Our local CBS station KDKA reported last night on the six o'clock news that the young man had to have his leg amputated. Her That Must Be Obeyed remembers how his mother would tell OJ about her son and things that he had done as a Scout in Troop 101. She was/is so very proud of her boy. Please keep on praying for this family, they have some tough times ahead, but right now everyone is just glad that he is alive. Again many thanks. Eamonn.

Prairie_Scouter I suppose you and I agreeing to disagree is fine. A very dear friend of mine used to say that he thought he made a mistake once, but he was wrong. I wonder what you will say to the Scout who asks you why the BSA doesn't allow homosexual leaders? As a very young Wolf Cub in England we had to learn about our Flag, the Union Flag with the cross of Saint George, the cross of Saint Andrew and the cross of Saint Patrick, I liked the idea that Saint Patrick was there. We learned about the Red Rose of England,the Thistle of Scotland and the Shamrock of Ireland. No one ever mentioned that we were only talking about the six counties that make up Northern Ireland. We also had to learn the first and third verses of the National Anthem, which of course is God Save The Queen. As a Lad I never gave much thought to why we never learned the second verse. Verse one is: God save our gracious Queen, Long live our noble Queen, God save the Queen: Send her victorious, Happy and glorious, Long to reign over us: God save the Queen. And The Third verse is: Thy choicest gifts in store, On her be pleased to pour; Long may she reign: May she defend our laws, And ever give us cause To sing with heart and voice God save the Queen. But what about that second verse? It goes: O Lord, our God, arise, Scatter her enemies, And make them fall. Confound their politics, Frustrate their knavish tricks, On thee our hopes we fix: God save us all. Talk about being politically correct? But by verse five it got worse: Lord grant that Marshal Wade May by thy mighty aid Victory bring. May he sedition hush, And like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush. God save the Queen! I don't know if any of the adults in the Pack knew the words to the third and fifth verses? But I wonder how they could on one hand be teaching us little fellows all about this world wide brotherhood of Scouting and then on the other explain things like: "Scatter her enemies, And make them fall" Or "May he sedition hush, And like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush"? (George Wade was born in Kilavally, Westmeath, Ireland.When the Jacobites rose again in 1745 the speed of their advance was beyond Wade. He failed to counter their march into England.) Later Prince William Augustus, Duke of Cumberland, the third son of George II.put down the 1745 rising of the Jacobites, he defeated Prince Charles Edward Stuart at Culloden Moor (1746) and earned the nickname the Butcher by his ruthless punishment of the rebels. This led to a sixth verse:) George is magnanimous, Subjects unanimous; Peace to us bring: His fame is glorious, Reign meritorious, God save the King! You posted:"Laws change, courts change, attitudes change. Values don't, and shouldn't change, but how those values are interpreted and put into action can, and sometimes should" Well 259 years have gone by and there are still a lot of unhappy Scotsmen!! Her That Must Be Obeyed, tells me that I watch too much television, I don't think I watch that much. I gave up watching sitcoms when Roseanne came out. I was unhappy with the Cosby Show, it seemed to portray all white men as being really dumb and being racist. Now it seems that I am being force fed TV Gay men. Every time I turn on the Bravo channel there seems to be Queer Eye For The Straight Guy on.I have worked with a lot of homosexual men and I would never use the word Queer. It seems that every reality show has to have at least one homosexual man or homosexual team. Bravo just started a new series about show dogs and there had to be two homosexual men. I really do enjoy the Amazing Race on CBS and it seems that there has too be a homosexual team every year. I have no idea what percentage of the population is homosexual? But if TV was a way of measuring the percentage it would be really high. I'm sure that someone will say that this is being done in the name of diversity but I feel it's just being over done and over the top. I was active as a Scoutmaster in London for over eleven years, I don't know how many boys I got to know. I never ever had a Scout that claimed to be homosexual or confused about his sexuality. I did come across a fair share of naughty books (Playboy, Penthouse) I had Lads who late at night when they thought I wasn't around would explain the facts of life to younger Scouts or tell the other Lads about how they got "Lucky" When I heard stuff like this I would make enough noise so it was clear that I was around and then later the next day have a word with the "Lucky Lad" Me explaining how this sort of talk was not acceptable in Scouting. As a history teacher in a big school of nearly six thousand students, I never had a student or heard of a student claim to be homosexual. But now in this small town of less than 5,000, OJ informs me that two of his friends are gay. Again I feel sure that someone will say that of the thousands of Boys I knew there were sure to be some that were homosexual but didn't want to admit it openly. One of OJ's gay friends came around our house as part of the normal herd of kids that seem to be here a lot of the time. He is a real nice kid, he beat me in a game of chess. He does seem to "Camp it up" a bit when there is a crowd. I don't know if he really is homosexual or not, I don't know him well enough to know if he is really sure himself? I worked for the BBC for a number of years and there was a lot of homosexual men working there. They for the most part didn't wear their sexuality on their sleeve. I used to go for a drink with a few of them and was asked a few times if I was "Interested" I wasn't "interested" and that was the end of it. I don't know what I would say if a young Lad of OJ's age came to me and said he was thinking that he was that way inclined? If it had anything to do with Scouts, I would meet with his parents and explain the BSA policy. I kinda think I am too old or to set in my ways to accept this as being normal. While OJ's pal and I were playing chess (This Lad is not in Scouts) I made sure that we didn't get close to talking about him being or thinking that he is homosexual. I don't know how to address this. Maybe in 259 years it might be more acceptable, but it will never be normal. Maybe in 259 years we will know for certain if homosexuality is a choice? Or if there really is something that really does cause people to be that way? Who knows maybe in 259 years parents will be able to choose if they want to change the traits of the baby they are having by just filling out the form. But as things are today we have green socks with red tops, and no avowed homosexuals in the BSA. The Lautrec Restaurant at Nemacolin Woodlands offers a Chefs ten course tasting menu with wine pairings for $150.00 per person. It really is an outstanding night out.The regular menu is also very good. The menu changes by the season and main dishes change daily on Saturday they have tuna on the Hors D'oeuvers menu: Bluefin Tuna Tartare Cucumber "Water", Lemon Oil, Sea Salt, Sweet Soy, California Avocado sixteen The veal is outstanding:Naturally Fed Veal Tenderloin Caramelized Sweetbreads, Banyuls Vinaigrette, Pommes "Dauphinoise", Morels, Fall Vegetables forty Eamonn.

Hi What position do you hold in the Troop? Please don't tell anyone I said so, but a lot of the Camporees that I have attended are not that great. In fact the ones that our District were running were far from great, I swore that if I seen another Camporee where there was a string burning competition and a build a stretcher race heads would roll!! We now have the SPL's from all the Troops in the District invited to the Roundtable, they work with the District Activity Committee and things have got a lot better, which in turn has increased attendance at the Camporees. It is however worth remembering that you can't please all the people all the time. We have had canoeing Camporees, where some troops have said that they are not into canoeing, while others thought it was great. Some District Camporees are real big on inter-troop competition. Some Troops just love competing, while others hate it. You need to find out why the Troop you are involved in doesn't want to attend. Maybe what's wrong can be fixed or maybe it has been fixed already? While I don't think that District or Council events ought to get in the way of the Troop program. I also don't think that a Troop should keep clear of District and Council events just because they are District and Council events. These events along with Jamborees do help drive home the fact that Scouting is bigger than just the group that meets in the church hall week after week. Our District Camporees used to be poorly planned and other than the date there was little or no communication about what was going on fixing that and having input from the SPL's along with having them take responsibility for running part of the Camporee made a big difference in our District. You might want to tell the Lads in the troop that we don't dwell in a negative history, but we look for a positive future. Even if past Camporees were not great, they now have you on their side planning events that are fun and challenging. Whats more you will guarantee perfect camping weather!! (Don't promise nice weather!!) Good Luck. Eamonn.

DugNevius I don't have the answer. It is a sad fact that many of the guys I am talking about are proud Wood Badge trained leaders. What really vexes me is that these guys know what they are doing is wrong.As if that wasn't bad enough they have new leaders join, these new guys attend training leave with the training high and never get to put the stuff that they learn into practice, because of the "We don't do it that way" syndrome. During my time as District Commissioner, I thought that I would be clever and before the R/T Commissioner got going with his thing I took about ten minutes each month and covered the methods of Scouting. Everyone said that the presentation was good and they liked the handouts. Still nothing changed. The guy who is one of my ASM's for the Jamboree arrived at our first troop meeting not wearing Scout uniform pants. I had requested that all the Scouts wear full uniform if they had one. I know the guy has three kids, one in college and two boys going to the Jamboree, but I had to insist that he started wearing the full uniform. The other two are great!! One is the SM of what I think is one of the best troops in the District.The other is a just 18 year old, who OJ (My son) says I like better than him. He was in with me last Jambo and his Dad was there working as a RN. I was the guest speaker at his Eagle Scout court of honor. A super Lad who attended the last world jamboree and is the Wagion OA Lodge chief. We never seemed to have these problems back home in England, but that was twenty years ago and it could be that people think differently and we don't have as many people involved? I don't know. At times I think we have fallen into the thinking that some sort of a program is better than none. The thread on Commissioners did seem to be saying that there are flaws in the Commissioner service, but even if the service was perfect how would you deal with the people who know what they ought to be doing but have made the choice not to do it? Some people might say that we need to work on getting our chartered partners more involved. That might work. It would be great if we could really get the COR's more involved, maybe we need to rethink their role. Back home we had a Group Scout Leader, as a rule this was an older leader who was a mentor to the leaders and worked with the Group Committee (The group was all the programs: Cubs, Scouts and Venture Scouts - Yes they were Venture Scouts in the UK from 1969 until about three years ago) Maybe we need the Districts to be doing more in the area of offering programs that units can participate in? I really don't have the answer. I keep thinking about the Johnny Cash song, To Beat The Devil. And you still can hear me singin' to the people who don't listen, To the things that I am sayin', prayin' someone's gonna hear. And I guess I'll die explaining how the things that they complain about, Are things they could be changin', hopin' someone's gonna care. All we can do is to keep trying, keep setting the example and remember that A Scout is cheerful. Eamonn.

Prairie_Scouter I really don't know when the BSA started explaining what "Morally straight" means. I don't think it matters. This program is what it is and we can take it or leave it. I happen to think that green socks with red tops are silly but these socks are the BSA uniform socks. If I had really strong feelings and knew that this organization wasn't going to change the socks I would leave. Maybe I'm just a rule follower? But I know I don't have the authority to change the uniform and me opting to wear non BSA socks would not be setting the example that I think I ought to be setting. The BSA has made where it stands on the homosexual issue very clear and as a private organization they can do this. The BSA is not a political organization, however many of the other organizations that are our Chartered Partners are religious organizations, these organizations do have a lot of say about what goes on. We only provide the program, the youth members belong to them. Eamonn. I know a great resturant that serves a Tuna Tartar with Wasabi Caviar and Spicy Ginger

I got cut off !! Anyway as I was saying I don't know why these "Free Thinkers" keep doing what they are doing. We do have a couple of really good Troops that do things by the book. These Troops are wearing the full uniform, using the Patrol method and the Scouts are having fun and participating in a program that offers them adventure. These Troops are growing,Lads want to join, meanwhile the "Free Thinkers" are complaining that sports and video games and TV and the kids of today and any other thing that they can think of is at fault. DugNevius I think the Welcome To The Boy Scouts Of America page ought to be used a lot more in training's at Roundtable meetings. We have made a promise to the Scouts that join. We promise Adventure. Sad to say a lot of what some Troops do is about as adventurous as watching the Tellytubbies!! The Scouts never get the opportunity to put the skills they learned or were supposed to learn on the road to First Class to work, these skills are never or only rarely used and become rusty or forgotten. We promise these Scouts a challenge, yet we offer programs where one size fits all. So while there may be a challenge for the little fellow who has just joined, but the program just keeps being the same old same old. Merit Badges ought to be where a Scout challenges himself, yet I visit Troops where the weekly Merit Badge Class is in session, worse still is that the Merit Badges get forgot and are replaced with attendance at these classes being the only requirement. We promise responsibility and yet we have so many Troops that never ever have a PLC meeting. The SPL has standing up at the start of the meeting and doing a lack luster opening as his only responsibility. Troops never give the Scouts the opportunity to be responsible because it's easier not too. I am in no way saying that we need to clone Scouting programs and have what each Troop does be the same as the one down the road. As long as the Scouts in the Troop (Not the adult leaders)want to go backpacking, thats fine. If however the Troop wants to not go backpacking and the Scouts would like to attend Camporees and that sort of thing, they should be able too. A little while back I posted that my son was going to Philmont. He was unsure if he wanted to go and do the OA Trail Crew or go with a another Troop. The Troop is one that does Philmont a lot. The Leaders enjoy it. They seem to have forgot that there is more to Scouting than just going to Philmont and worse still they are a very cocky bunch. OJ, is doing the Trail-crew. If Steven Spielberg were looking for ideas of where to start making the movie I would give him page one of the Boy Scout Handbook. While I am not a violent fellow, there are a lot of Scoutmasters who would benefit with a couple of whacks from the same book. Eamonn.

Hi Fred, At the end of the six day experience, the good looking Course Director of NE-IV-153,presented each participant a small card (Bought from National, with the fall leaves and beads on)This card certified that the six days had been completed. When the ticket is completed, along with the Wood Badge regalia there is a certificate. You can buy a wallet sized laminated card from National. I have never seen the real thing. The cost was and maybe is $10.00, which I thought was a lot for a card. Our hard working Scribes included an order form in the packet that everyone took home on the last day of the practical part of the course. The certificate used before the 21st Century course came out, was to my mind a lot nicer. At the bottom of the certificate is found from the writings of Rudyard Kipling, "Who hath smelt wood-smoke at twilight? Who hath heard the birch-log burning? Who is quick to read the noises of the night? Let him follow with the others, for the young men's feet are turning to the camps of proved desire and known delight." I thought it was nice, but maybe not 21st Century enough? Eamonn.

Sad to say I feel that most of the Troops in the District I serve do not live up to the promise made in the Boy Scout Handbook. I don't think what we do in Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting is rocket science. Venturing might be or could be?? Training is great, training should be the answer, we however have a lot of guys who seem to have adapted the program, adapted the uniform, decided that the methods are good on paper,work at training but are not for them. What I don't understand is how these "Free Thinkers

I hadn't noticed that there wasn't any mugs. I don't know if there will be some for sale at the Jamboree or not. I don't collect mugs, but Scouting mugs were taking over, for a while it seemed every event came with a mug. Her That Must Be Obeyed made me go through the mugs and take the ones that didn't mean that much to the Campmaster building. The trend now seems to be travel mugs. No fear of amassing too many of them as I keep forgetting them and leaving them everywhere. Eamonn.

Hi blazer63 My heart goes out to you and the innocent Scouts and Leaders,what a nasty way to ruin a good weekend. I agree with everyone that has posted that you and the other leaders are not at fault. I think you need to meet with the Troop Committee and see how they want to handle the situation. I would hope that they would move to ensure that the camp ground owners are compensated for whatever loss they have incurred. I am not in favor of what your Troop Committee Chair is saying, but at the end of the day this ball is with him and the Troop Committee. Eamonn.

NJCubScouter You are right when you say that so far only a couple of people have stated that they are homosexual or do not believe in God. We do seem to be lost in a sea of analogy's. But here I go with yet another one. I am a Roman Catholic and like to think that I'm doing my best to follow the teachings of the church. I have several friends that were baptized in the church went on to make their First Holy Communion and were Confirmed, some went on to be married in the R/C Church. Then for reasons of their own they stopped going to church and following the rules of the church. The Parish Priest we had before the one we now have would not allow these non-practicing Catholics to be God Parents. (He did allow people that were practicing their faith in other religions to be God Parents.) This caused a stir in our small town, people came out for and against. Sure these non-practicing Catholics were members of the church, they had been Baptized and Confirmed in the church, but the Priest used the argument that if these people were not looking after their own spiritual welfare how could they be expected to be responsible for the spiritual welfare of a child? When the time came for me to look for God Parents for my Son, I didn't choose just nice people or people who were great friends of the family, I choose people who were living the faith. I used to think that everyone was aware that the BSA was a values based program. I am now not so sure if everybody is aware that the values are the very core of what we are about. It could be that we all need to do a better job of bringing the values front and center. That way maybe everyone will know that Scouting isn't just about rubbing two sticks together, helping little old ladies across the road, or camping. Duty to God, is not going to be taken out of Scouting.Not now, not ever. The BSA has stated very clearly where they stand on the homosexual issue. Membership in the BSA is not a right. If anyone feels that they can't live with the rulings of the BSA, they ought to examine their values and think about what they want to do.If people feel as vehemently about these issues as has been displayed in this forum over the past week or so, I would think that they have no choice but to look for a youth organization that is a better fit. This talk about the BSA being a political organization is pure out and out twaddle!! While it might be said that some of the Organizations that charter Scouting units are churches and my knowledge of other churches and other religions is not that great. I know that the church I attend does at election time hand out flyer's which states where each candidate stands on abortion, there has never been politics spoken from the pulpit. I also know that there are no Republicans on City Council. The BSA Web site has posted: Adult volunteer leaders not only espouse Scoutings values and beliefs, but more importantly they embody them as role models to Scouting youth. Through teaching, counseling, and role modeling, adult leaders play a critical role in transmitting Scouting values and beliefs to the boys. I have to think that this does not leave any "Wiggle" room Eamonn.

Hi. I just received this via E-mail, from a Scoutmaster that serves in our district: A former boy scout from Troop 101 and a very dear friends son was injured in Iraq on Thursday. He has been flown to Walter Reed in the States today (Sunday). Please can you hold the Family of Tim Boots in your prays and for the soldiers of Bravo 1-103rd Armor from the Connellsville Detachment who are still in Iraq. Also For my son Mark Odroneic and the 65th MP Co. out of Ft Bragg that are station in Iraq in harms way. Thanks Eamonn.

Hi scoutldr, You are of course right that just about anyone can visit or post in these forums. We do however have a number of youth members, both visiting and posting. In fact Hops Scout is a youth member and a moderator in this forum. Terry our host tells us that Nearly a hundred thousand people a month use this web site. I don't know if anything has been done to find out if these users are parents, youth members, or people who have been around for a while. Please bear with me while I play pretend. Let's pretend for a moment that I am the parent of a little fellow that has asked to join Tiger Cubs. I do a search and end up here. I really know nothing about Scouting or the BSA. Once here I read; "For the record, In My Opinion, BSA National is a political organization espousing the agenda of a group that may not be the majority of Scouter's" Posted by Prairie_Scouter,Saturday, 4/9/2005: 9:44:10 AM I as that Tiger parent might have second thoughts about allowing my son to become a member of this political organization. By the way, it's no big deal but Eamonn has two N'S. Prairie_Scouter I have no idea what you are talking about when you call the BSA "This political organization"? Scouting is not a cafeteria you can't pick and choose what policy you like and not take the ones you don't like. I strongly suggest that you visit: http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-113.htm and go to the Frequently Asked Questions. If you really feel that you can't accept the answers provided ? Then you might want to rethink you membership in the BSA. I have to admit to finding this talk about the BSA being a political organization, that favors Christen religions not only offensive but a big heap of twaddle. Barry, the circle wouldn't be complete without you. However if you keep saying that you are aging fast, who knows one day we might start believing you. CA_Scouter, No PLEASE NO MORE RULES!!Never in a month of Sundays would I suggest that we need more rules. I would however point out that A Scout is Loyal. I would hope that we are loyal to the BSA. Those of us who hold leadership roles in the BSA need to remember that membership is a privilege not a right. As leaders we play a very important role in Scouting. The BSA states on their web site: Why is the leadership role so important to Scouting? A. The responsibility for instilling Scouting values and beliefs is entrusted to adult volunteer leaders. One of the most important methods of Scouting is adult association, because association with adults of high character is critical to a boys development. Scoutings program for instilling values in young people teaches through both principles and concrete examples of adult leaders. Adult volunteer leaders not only espouse Scoutings values and beliefs, but more importantly they embody them as role models to Scouting youth. Through teaching, counseling, and role modeling, adult leaders play a critical role in transmitting Scouting values and beliefs to the boys. A boy may spend more time with his Scoutmaster, on weekend campouts and other small-group activities away from home, than he spends with his own father. While I would hate to step on anyones first amendment rights. It seems to me that if we are going to be leaders in this organization we need to walk the walk, if we do this while using every opportunity to disagree with the rules, surely we would be guilty of hypocrisy. Proud Eagle, beasties mom and busylady, thanks for joining our circle and please don't burn my marshmallow. Last but not least OGE. Please don't worry about the move!! Years ago I was lucky enough to have a pair of brothers in the troop from Jamaica, it didn't matter what you asked them, the answer always seemed to be "No worries man" Eamonn.

Has anyone heard who the big name band will be at the Jamboree? Last time the Lad's I was with were not over the moon about The Osmond's Second Generation. Of course everyone thought the girl band The Three Of Hearts (Please correct me if I got the name wrong.)were cute and really good looking. Sad to say I never heard anything more from them. I think they were brought in at the last minute to replace Barbara Mandrell? The Scouts attending this Jamboree were asked to participate in an on line poll, but I never seen or heard anything more. Eamonn.

orennoah Thanks for making me smile. I love the polypropylene, heck I still call Styrofoam, Polystyrene!! And have to think about Aluminum. Miki101 Do you think that the HEADQUARTERS GAZETTE would take the form of blog? Somehow I see BP as being the worlds greatest Blogger. Eamonn

Sure Bob we will just make the circle a little wider. Eamonn.

Hey Unc, No Chives?? Eamonn.

BP said: Scout is never taken by surprise; he knows exactly what to do when anything unexpected happens. Be Prepared... the meaning of the motto is that a scout must prepare himself by previous thinking out and practicing how to act on any accident or emergency so that he is never taken by surprise. An individual step in character training is to put responsibility on the individual. Scouts of the World - Brothers Together The patrol system leads each boy to see that he has some individual responsibility for the good of his patrol. The uniform makes for brotherhood, since when universally adopted it covers up all differences of class and country. There is no teaching to compare with example. Trust should be the basis for all our moral training. Give the old Boy a cell phone with GPS, a laptop and he would be good to go. Eamonn

Hi scoutldr At the bottom of the page you will read: This is a private community provided by SCOUTER Network and reserved for Scouting related discussions. If someone does not meet the requirements laid down by the BSA or the requirements laid down by the Scout Organization of the country in which they live they are not Scouter's. It kinda goes hand in hand with "Is the Pope Catholic?" You are not and can not be a Gay Scouter in the BSA, nor can you be an atheist. I wonder what Miss Manners has to say about gatecrashers? SCOUTER-Terry, our host posted: Remember, when you post here you are not just participating in a discussion, but creating a searchable archive of ideas and resources that will be used for years to come. Nearly a hundred thousand people a month use this web site, and the "living archive" of content you're helping create will be here long after many members leave. How beneficial will your mark be to those who follow? (Posted: Friday, 7/9/2004: 7:40:00 PM ) While many of us who are members of the BSA in good standing do at times use these forums to vent or let off steam, there are those who are using the forum to bash the heck out of Scouting and the BSA. I have to admit to not reading the works of Miss Manners. What does she say about the guests who come to the party uninvited and then do nothing but complain about the party that they were never a part of in the first place? SemperParatus I for one have enjoyed your postings and I believe that you have indeed helped others in the time you have been here.I don't know about the past three weeks? I think the level of unkindness over the past three days has been really horrible. If there are hundred thousand people a month looking in on this site don't we as Scouter's have a duty to be loyal to the BSA and show these hundred thousand people that we are trying to live up to the standards laid down in the Scout Oath and Law? Eamonn

There is a lot of threads in the Issues and Politics group, that seem to be so closely related I at times was unsure which thread I was in. Sad to say there is a lot of things that are being said that are not in keeping with:A Scout is kind.Which is a shame and would if I were a parent thinking about allowing my kid to join Scouting make me rethink the whole idea. These forums are a place for Scouter's to discuss Scouting. At present to be a Scouter in the BSA you have to believe in God and not be an avowed homosexual. If you don't meet these requirements you can't be a Scouter and really have no business here. I know that I would never meet the requirements for membership into the World's Woman's Christian Temperance Union. I am not a Woman and do enjoy the odd alcoholic beverage every now and then. I suppose I could ask them to change the rules and allow me in, but somehow I think I would be wasting my time. I could point out that Men can do as good a job as Women at raising kids, cooking, washing, nursing and being Astronauts. I might point out that some of the most gifted men that lived on the planet were complete alcoholics and I have spoken with guys who can put their hand on their heart and claim they drive better after drinking a six pack. If that failed I could point out how many people the alcoholic beverage trade employs and how much money is spent ensuring drinkers drink responsibly. Yes this is about as daffy as I could make it. But if you don't meet the requirements to join or remain in the BSA, please do me a big favor and leave. Eamonn.

OGE This seems like a good time for a song! How about this one from Don Williams? I'm not that keen on Country and Western, but my little sister was a big Don Williams fan. Artist/Band: Williams Don Lyrics for Song: I Believe in You Lyrics for Album: Don Williams - 20 Greatest Hits. I don't believe in superstars, Organic food and foreign cars. I don't believe the price of gold; The certainty of growing old. That right is right and left is wrong, That north and south can't get along. That east is east and west is west. And being first is always best. But I believe in love. I believe in babies. I believe in Mom and Dad. And I believe in you. Well, I don't believe that heaven waits, For only those who congregate. I like to think of God as love: He's down below, He's up above. He's watching people everywhere. He knows who does and doesn't care. And I'm an ordinary man, Sometimes I wonder who I am. But I believe in love. I believe in music. I believe in magic. And I believe in you. Well, I know with all my certainty, What's going on with you and me, Is a good thing. It's true, I believe in you. I don't believe virginity, Is as common as it used to be. In working days and sleeping nights, That black is black and white is white. That Superman and Robin Hood, Are still alive in Hollywood. That gasoline's in short supply, The rising cost of getting by. But I believe in love. I believe in old folks. I believe in children. I believe in you. But I believe in love. I believe in babies. I believe in Mom and Dad. And I believe in you. Eamonn.

The other night I was channel surfing in bed and stopped at a PBS station. I had missed the start of the show. But knew it was one of the Independent Lens productions.I found out later the show was titled: Let The Church Say Amen. http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/letthechurchsayamen/storefront.html I was raised in a fairly strict Irish Roman Catholic home. As a young Lad I was very active in the church, serving Mass as an alter boy, and participating in activities at both the parish and diocese level. For a few years I thought that I was being called to be a priest. Everyone else did as well, Headmasters, House-masters, Teachers, Priests and my parents.When I was about 17 or 18 I like a lot of young people became involved in politics. We were going to change the world. I joined the Young Socialists and really did believe that Socialism was the only way to get things where they ought to be. Going through some old photos the other week OJ didn't know the young man with the long brown hair and the bushy beard. About this time I thought my vocation was not a religious one and maybe teaching was more up my alley. (I was wrong on that one as well!!) For a while I turned my back on my church and my religion. As I watched this storefront church, something I had never seen before I was really taken by the faith that the church members had. The church was active in doing things in the community which was great, but the faith that people who didn't have that much had in God was a real eye opener for me. I was the person who said that Scouting without God would be shallow and if God was no longer a part of Scouting I would pack up and move on. I have over the years had a lot of Lads from a lot of different religions in the troop that I served. I think everyone knew that I was a Roman Catholic, so inviting the Lads that were R/C to attend Mass with me was a no brainer. The Lads that were active in whatever religion they were in was easy. The challenge was the Scouts that had never ever been inside a church. Sure their application had C of E filled in the space for religion and sure in some schools there was still a very quick school prayer offered at the school assemblies. But the Brits are no where near as religious as their American cousins. I never seen Scouts or Scouting as my ministry. There was no way I was going to convert these C of E form fillers into Roman Catholics. I like to think that maybe, just maybe there were times when the opportunity came along that I did bring God, front and center not as the God of any one church, but as the God of nature and beauty, the God of quite times sitting around the campfire embers. Much as I admired the people I seen on the TV standing on street corners with bull horns, I can't see me ever joining them. But standing next to a Lad looking at something wonderful and saying "God this is beautiful" is more my style. Eamonn.

Hi acco40, If Ernie was still alive he would be in his high 80's or maybe even his 90's. I'm unsure what acceptance there was in his time for homosexuals? Other than Quentin Crisp and a few others who were mainly in the arts, homosexuals were not as open as they seem to be today. I have no idea what sort of relationship Ernie had with these Nephews. I knew and was great friends with several men who never married and much preferred the company of other males. I never thought of them as being homosexual, in fact sex was never talked about. There may well be leaders in the BSA who are aware of their attraction to members of the same sex, but never act or follow these feelings or urges. I don't know if these people are homosexual or not? I have been very happily married for going on 23 years and have never discussed my sex life with any of our youth members, in fact I think I have never discussed my sex life with any of our adult members. Ernie was much the same, whatever he did in his bedroom was his and he didn't share it with anyone. His reasons for doing this were also his. At this time the rules of the organization that we choose to belong to state that avowed homosexuals are not welcome. A gay lifestyle is not the example that we want to set before our Scouts. However just as there isn't any uniform police there are no bedroom police. Eamonn

It comes down to what do you want to offer? Day care for busy parents or a Scouting program for the Boy's? Eamonn