Eagledad

>>the Scoutmaster does not get veto power over nominations or the boy's choice for SPL

Hi All My Webelos den meeting agenda started with the Webelos running an opening ceremony (about five minutes, then 15 minutes talking about assorted subjects, two skits for the next pack meeting being one. WE then spent about 40 minutes working on two activity badges followed by a 20 minute game that usually involved running. We finished the meeting with a closing ceremony, which included awards presentation of completed activity badges. The way I was able to do this agenda was by going to two 90 minute meetings a month. I had sixteen Webelos, so I divided them up into two groups. Each group took responsibility for a skit and had to be ready for it by the pack meeting. Most of the time the scouts showed up 30 minutes before the meeting to practice the skit. Once they got use to the routine, they usually had the skit down in 15 minutes of practice. Same for the activity badges. Since I had two groups, they would work on one badge for 20 minutes then switch with the other group. Even though I was required to split my group, I think you can do this with a smaller group as well. I let my activity badges set the theme of the meetings, but I also tried to get the required badges out of the way as fast as I could. I asked my parents to parents plan and run the badges. They were given two meetings to complete as many requirements as possible (One month). If they could complete the badge, we came back to it later. I planned my meetings all the way through the year so I could assign the parents at the beginning of the year. I must say that my program was a struggle until I lengthen the meetings to 90 minutes. Then it got real easy even with the taking the third week off, which I enjoyed as well. As for the CM, I suggest that you ask him what he requires of the Webelos at his pack meeting. The Den meeting is really the Den leaders business until it becomes obvious that the meetings are not meeting the expectations of the BSA. Until then the SM really shouldnt micro manage the den. Also, I found it easier to keep track of the scouts completed requirements by putting the requirements and scouts on a spreadsheet and marking off each requirement as they completed them. My assistant would sign the books during the meeting. But the spreadsheet made it a lot easier to see at a glance where each scout stood without thumbing through the books. I hope this is not too confusing. Barry

As I got better at this scouting stuff, I became offended with the idea of adult authority. I think it gets in the way of pure scouting. After every new election of youth officers, I told the PLC that if I could not support or give logical reason for anything we did in the troop, they could throw it out. I did that so that I didn't make scouts do anything just because I was the adult and had the authority. It is one thing to ask boys to do something because you know that it can better their future. It is something different to tell scouts to do it because that is what you want and you have the authority. My biggest test was the uniform. I like to teach adults that rebellous scouts are just expressing in their own way that they don't understand because they haven't learned yet better ways to ask and learn. When this happens, you the adult need to either figure out a different way to explain the subject so that they do understand, or back off and rethink the whole thing. Again I use the uniform as an example. I find that the uniform is the hardest method for adults to apply without forcing their authority. It is a real test of how to use auhtority in a boy run troop. Great Question. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Yes, I commented on another thread that the scouts in our area would relate to that video. Barry

>>For me it is the direction scouting needs to go. Brian

>>I've had luck just saying that "The Go-See-It for this month will be ________ to fulfill a Tiger rank requirement. I need someone to help out by contacting ____________ to set it up."

>>For some parents, just registering with the BSA is traumatic enough. You have to be flexible or you could lose them and their boys for good. Give these parents "little" jobs, but no more.

>>So I too cheer those that become great citizens without choosing to complete requirements for Eagle.

While reading the responses in this thread, I enjoyed thinking back in my days of watching M80s and Cherry Bombs blow up milk carton and gallon coffee cans to smithereens. To be fair, we were only trying to send the coffee can to the moon. Who knows, maybe the desire to build a can strong enough to withstand the thrust generated for a Cherry Bomb (1/4th stick dynamite) is what drove me to be an Aeronautical Engineer. Every December dad drove our family to Grandmas in Laurel Mississippi for Christmas. At that time, fireworks was a common way of celebrating Christmas and my cousin always took the time to show me the fine art of using fireworks in ways not advertised at the fireworks stand. One year just when we thought we had pushed our experiments to new frontiers, my dad presented us with a one inch pipe about 18 inches long that he and uncle Lee turned into a marble cannon sometime in the early 1940s. We fired a dozen marbles down the ally behind grandmas house that day. Never saw them land, never saw them again for that matter. At the time the cannon was made, my uncle was an Eagle. My dad was a 15 year old SM because that was during WWII when few adults were around to be a SM. I actually thought the Polish cannon was real. I guess Im a bit naive, but I have personally shot potato and tennis ball cannons, so a Polish cannon seemed reasonable to me. I was waiting to read what it was and kind of thought it might fit the description of what dad made back in his teenage days. I guess sometimes we let our emotions get the best of us. Barry

I have a friend who over the past 40 years as been a Council Commissioner, District Commissioner and Unit Commissioner. He started each of his UC's with a successful unit and a not so successful unit so that the UC could learn from the differences between the two programs. He did not give them units in different sections for the reasons already being mentioned here. However, my own district will give you what you are willing to take because they dont know how to recruit and dont have near enough UCs. If a new inexperienced UC wanted several units in different sections, they would get them. Barry

>>Are the Troops making it too easy to skip meetings and campouts, in order to keep them at least minimally involved in Scouting? Does patronizing to these marginal Scouts hurt the rest who show up consistently?

I understand what you are saying, and you give a good explanation of how some parts or our culture are handcuffed to the addiction of fat government. I just happen to work for a government agency that gives out lots of grants for research. The reason scientists rely so heavily on government grants is because the government is so willing to give them without a lot of accountability. Not that we dont need some of the research, but if scientist really think the research has value to our society from the research, they dont need the government, they just need to work differently for funding. Trust me, a lot of scientist that rely on government funding are just freeloaders. The system needs a good slimming down. Now tell me, if Michael J. Fox and a few of his buddies ran commercials asking for money to fund Stem Cell Research, do you not think they would get the funding from folks who want the research? Instead they just go out and politicize and polarize our nation. How about a compromise. Change the rules where labs can accept public funds as well as government funds. That allows everyone to choose if they want to fund it then. It is truly and issue about the quality of life, not about who wins and who looses the next election. If we are so willing to kick Boy Scouts out of government buildings because a minority of folks disagrees with their policy, how can we not also accommodate folks who disagree with the morality of life? The above is also not and expression of my personal views. I just dont like folks blaming all their ills on the politics they oppose. Thanks for the thoughtful and kindly worded reply. Have a great week. Barry

>>Secretly I think, only if we can get the right wing politicians to stop obstructing stem cell research.

Hi All These are very good questions. Looking at these questions from both the CM side and the SM side, I learned that scouts mostly needed the confidence of meeting and participating in activities with strangers, learning new skills and camping overnight in a tent with other scouts. I know that sounds very simplistic, but I found that Webelos who had the most exposure to standing and performing in front of a audiences had the most confidence to joining a Troop where just about everyone is a stranger. Most of the Webelos that I found afraid of the Troop program were afraid of camping. But that doesnt mean they need a lot of camping, that means they need enough experience to take away their fears. The largest group of new scouts that we ever lost who as Webelos camped every month for a year and knew all the first class skills. They were bored to death in our troop. Now I know that knowing a few skills helps a lot in building confidence, but reality is the Troop is going to go all through that again. Rather, I learned scouts needed enough skills to feel familure with the environment. They didnt need to be experts. When I first was dragged in Cubs as the Cub Master, heals dragging, the pack averaged 30 or so Webelos every year with only 10 percent crossing over to troops. Five years later after changing our program, we had 98 percent crossing over with 80 percent of those scouts continuing into their second year into the troop. What we did was make sure that the scout had opportunities at the Wolf and Bear age to build self confidence. Mostly we did this with songs, skits and presentations. At the Wolf age, I asked the leader to help her scouts practice and perform the skits and songs with their scouts. I asked the Bear leaders to help the boys practice, but not to perform with the boys. The first year Webelos handed their Scouts the skits and asked them to learn the parts and practice. The Second year Webelos picked out their own skits practiced on their own time (usually before the meeting) and performs the skits. Every den was going to stand in front of the Pack at every pack meeting. The Webelos were expected to do at least two skits or songs at every meeting. The Webelos IIs lead every Pack opening and closing ceremony. The Den would pick two scouts who had to show up 30 minutes before the Pack meeting to train the Wolf or Bear den next to carry the flags in the ceremony. The Webelos I den also selected two scouts whose job was to assist the Webelos IIs, but in reality, it was basically training them for next year. The two Webelos IIs stood in front and did all the calling for the flag and prayer presentation. The Webelos Is stand slightly back and to the side of Webelos IIs. As you can see, each age group is given just a little more responsibility and exposure to standing in front of the group. Also, the Webelos IIs are expected to show up early to set up the chairs for the Pack meeting, and the Webelos Is are responsible for cleanup. Other activities I did specifically to get scouts ready for Boy Scouts were camping. Our Webelos did one campout in September and May where they also prepared the Pack Campfires. And they went to a summer campout where they camped for at least three nights. I learned that most scouts who were afraid of camping never camped in a tent with other boys and never more than one night at a time. So I made sure that the Webelos had camped at least once without sleeping with a parent and had camped at least once two nights or more in a row. I did teach some scouts skills but more to have games that reassembled the patrol they may join. I asked the Webelos dens to start their Den meeting like a Troop. One scout was selected call the flags up and lead the Scout Law and Oath. It usually took at least a year or more for most scouts to learn the oath and law without a cheat sheet. I had no trouble with cheat sheets. I was more concerned about time up front as leaders. Doing those ceremonies were huge confidence builders because the very first thing they will do as new scouts is the opening ceremony. My Webelos were always bragging after visiting a Troop that they could lead an opening as good as the scouts in the troops. That was the kind of confidence I was looking for. Our Webelos were given the responsibility of role modeling for the Bears and Wolves. I told the Webelos they had to dress in full uniform because it shows the younger scouts how to dress. The Webelos always assisted the CM when presenting awards and anything else where the CM needed more than two hands. The Webelos helped with running the pinewood derby event and they were asked by the Bear Den leaders teach Flag etiquette and knots at their Den meetings. Now that may sound like a lot for Webelos, but they loved it. And I praised them a lot. Webelos were different in that they got to wear the cool military boony hats. Those are great hats because you have the choice of several colors styles. Our Webelos were very cool and every Bear and Wolf couldnt wait to be one. I think that is more than you were really asking for. So I will let other share their experience and ideas. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>My opinion is that it isn't a good match, and I told Mom that as well. Am I correct that the Pack decides the assignment, provided that the den leader is willing to take on the den chief? Is that the Committee or the CM? Of course the SM would need to approve as well...

>>The reason for a prohibition on fixed-blade knives is some ignoramus doesn't understand how to do real risk management.

MarkSs reply is right on and exactly what I was going to say. This is a difficult age for boys to take on this kind of responsibility and I think made worse because most of his patrol is the same age. I doubt really that your son is the problem as a leader, but instead the patrol dynamics is the problem. It may be mixed age but if most of the scouts are only 12, likely the patrol isnt very mature. I think this is one of those situations where along with guiding your son as a leader, there needs to be some coaching and guiding of the patrol as a whole. Just getting someone to sit down with the group and ask what is going on will give the boys a chance to explain their side, but almost more importantly give the mentor opportunities to coach these guys on the importance of follow ship, team work and understanding the task of the patrol leader. Its not that it will fix the problem because positive patrol dynamics takes a long time to develop. But it may ease the problems enough so that your son can finish the next couple months. Meanwhile, a search for a good patrol mentor is in order. I say mentor because Ive seen some older scouts do a good job at that role. Hope this helps, I understand the struggle when the SM isnt much of a help. That is his job after all. Barry

>>Eagledad, you are of course correct with the use of acetone instead of alcohol

>>Not to excuse inappropriate behavior - the boy needs some clear limits - but let's work on the adults rather than tossing a disruptive first grader out without some serious effort first to deal with the problem.

I've done this ceremony many times and it is always a hit with the scouts and parents. I do agree, practice, practice practice. Here is a copy of the Post from where I got the ceremony from way back when forums were just starting. Oh, I used a Hiking Stave with clothes pins instead of the two hangers. Let us know how it goes. ------------------------- Magic Neckerchief Graduation Ceremony Script This Ceremony is written for Webelos Graduation to Boy Scouts. With slight modification, it can be used for any level rank advancement. It is written assuming several scouts, but with minor changes could be used for a single scout. Materials: Neckerchief (if using Webelos neckerchief, the Webelos patch must be removed - it holds too much acetone, and will result in burning the part of the neckerchief above the patch) 2 coat hangers and 2 safety pins 1 large mouth Peanut butter jar with lid Acetone Water A lighted candle or advancement log with lighted candles Fire extinguisher Setup: Stretch out the hangers, attach one safety pin to each. Mix the "Magic Water" in the jar. This should be done outside with good ventilation. Keep the lid tightly closed except when dipping the neckerchief. Magic water consists of EXACTLY 40% Acetone and 60% Water (2 parts Acetone to 3 parts Water) You will need an assistant for lights, one for handling the dipping of the neckerchief, and one off-stage with the fire extinguisher (just in case).. When it is time to dip and burn the neckerchief, use the following procedure: 1. Attach the corners of the neckerchief to the hangers with the safety pins. 2. Lightly shake the jar of Magic Water to remix the components. Tightly wad the neckerchief and dip it completely into the jar containing the Magic Water. The whole neckerchief must be wet or the dry part will burn. 3. Squeeze out the neckerchief and quickly extend it, holding the hangers. While this is being done, the lid must be replaced for fire safety. 4. Pass the neckerchief over the flame. Make certain the neckerchief is spread between the wire holders. It cannot be rolled or folded in any part. Make certain that the neckerchief is well in front, or off to the side of you. We used an old broom stick, with the hangars attached to it so that no one had to be real close. If you work quick enough, the whole neckerchief will appear to be engulfed in flames, and the flames will extend several inches above the top of the neckerchief. 5. Shake gently when just the edges remain burning. This will extinguish the flames along the hems, which hold more acetone than the body, due to the additional fabric here. You must move very quickly through steps 2, 3 and 4, or the acetone will evaporate before it can be ignited. The jar of acetone must be kept away from the flame, and be covered at all times except when actually dipping the neckerchief. Acetone is highly flammable. You might want an additional assistant or two to help with this. Practice the steps above outside, before the meeting to make sure that you can get it right when the time comes. It will be embarrassing if the wet neckerchief doesn't burn due to evaporation of the acetone. This trick works because the acetone burns, while the water keeps the neckerchief from burning. Remember that the acetone will evaporate pretty quickly, or you will miss the effect. Script: Tonight Webelos Scouts _____________________ are graduating to boy scouts. Will they come forward with their parents. These young men have completed their Cub Scouting activities. There remains but one test before they may cross the bridge into Boy Scouts. "Have they done everything they can to BE PREPARED?" Deep in the heart of the mountains and deserts of New Mexico, there is an Indian village along side a small stream. The village and the area around it are very green and lush. This is very unusual, for the village is in the middle of a very harsh desert land. While hiking in the area several years ago, I came across this village and stopped by the stream for a rest. There was an old Chief sitting in the sun by the stream, and I asked him: "Why is this area so green and your people so healthy?" The old Chief replied: "The waters of this stream are magical. They assist all who come, by telling the people if they have done everything they need, to be prepared. By hard work with the assistance of these magical waters, my people have done the things needed to be prepared and prosper in life." I thought for a while and said: "I too could use these magical waters, for I know of many young men who are working hard to be prepared for life. Could I take some of these magical waters with me?" The old Chief smiled and nodded. "It is for the youth that these waters are most special." "Take something special from one of the young men who are to be tested and dip it in the water. Pass the special item over the flame, and if the special item burns, but is not consumed, then they have done everything needed to be prepared." From one of the cub scouts before us, we take the Webelos Neckerchief. And dip it in the Magic Water. Then pass it over the flame of the Spirit of Scouting. Scouts, you have passed the test and are prepared to cross over into Boy Scouting. May the Great Spirit of Akela go with you throughout your scouting days.

Actually I thought we lost those Webelos. After Sunday service, our Troop typically works on a service project, advancement for those who want it, and a PLC meeting. Then we break for lunch, break camp and do a game or two of Capture the Flag before we load the cars. But the Webelos and their leaders were so exausted that they left after Sunday service. I was nervious we ran them in the ground. Some of the scouts could barely walk to their cars. I ran into one of the leaders the next day and all she could say was they were all still trying to recover from the weekend. I thought we lost them but a week later I got a call from both Den Leaders that the Webelos told their parents that they didn't want to visit any more troops because they wanted ours. That group had 18 of the 25 new scouts we got that year. The stations were mostly First Class Scout skills. We did the navigation in the canoes, which turned out easier that expected. It was impressive because all the design and planning was done by the scouts. It was a good experience for us because the next year our scouts planned and hosted a Night Trooporee for four other troops. That took the troop six months to get ready. They did that under the Star Trek theme. What a weekend, we got nine inches of rain in four hours time. That was my younger son's first campout and he still remembers it well. But it must have went well because two of the four troops planned a trooporee in their own Council. One of those Trooporees turn into the model their District used for District Camporees for the next few years. Who would have ever thought that the one night camporee campout we did for ourselves would have led to all that the next few years. Wow, does scouting get better than that. Great memories. Barry

>>Many studies show that people without insurance are therefore more likely to postpone medical care until their problem becomes severe, because they want to avoid the 100% out of pocket expense. This ends up being economically inefficient in the long run, both for individuals and for society as a whole

>>The pack leaders are meeting this Sunday and we will discuss this issue.

This is a wonderful post WDL Mom, thank you. I think parents in general underestimate their own kids. I am struggling with this right now with my 16 year old daughter. She is teaching me through a lot of humility to ask first before I assume. I only want add that at first as a SM, I didn't really appreciate the Den Chief experience very much. It was hard for me to monitor their performance and I had some issues with them when I was a Cubmaster. But we started to observe that every scout with Den Chief experience was consistently a better Patrol Leader in their first few months of service then those without the experience. The difference was so significant that we started using the Den Chief position as one form of JLT. I even brought that idea into our Council JLT program when I was the Council JLT Chairman. I look forward to reading stories about your son in future years. Thanks again. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>So we can all deliver a quality program with a focus on basic scout skills, what kinds of Mafeking type adventures does your troop do?