Eagledad

>>The Eagle COH is the Scouts responsibility; just like you stated. After he his EBOR, tell him to give you a call and let you know when the date for his EBOR is determined.

>>While advancement is the measuring stick many use for the program, I see it as just one of the many tools we have to help develop young men.

>>Our troop is taking a high-adventure trek to the Pecos Wilderness in the Sangre-de-Cristo Mountains this summer. We are staying a day in Santa Fe to do some sight seeing and get acclimated to some higher elevations before we take off on our trek.

>>Despite claims to the contrary, we really DON'T embrace diversity, do we?

>>1) Has anyone ever done/seen the NYLT split up over several weekends. That seems like a good way to schedule it for maximum participants, and around adult and youth staff work schedules. But, to me, I think splitting the course up would be a net negative.

Yes and we moved it. You would be surprised how few weeks there are to choose from. Wood Badge itself takes up six of the weeks in our council. The best weeks to get camp are in the middle of summer after summer camp. But, those weeks are taken up by family vacations and high adventure. So we got creative. We started experimenting different weeks. We tried Fall Break, Christmas Break and Spring Break. When I left the program we were doing Fall Break and Spring break. But Christmas had a very good turn out as well. The thing about Fall and Spring breaks is they are close to the Wood Badge courses. So instead of us spending a few days opening and closing camp (Christmas Break) we worked close to the Wood Badge courses to save on everyones time. All Councils are different, but the Council staff needs to be really open minded and look for school out weeks that don't conflict with other programs that pull older scouts. Watch out for OA events too. Our best source of youth staff came from OA, so they helped us out a lot with equipment and adult volunteers. But there a couple of OA events that can conflict as well. Like I said, there aren't that many choices. But I certainly wouldn't do it on a weekend where older scouts have to attend another event. Barry

>>The discussion died down with the suggestion that maybe we try to insitute your idea with the younger Scout's, that the troop will pay for tham to go to NYLT once they turn 13y/o, and that it would be a prerequesite for ASPL and SPL. If they opt not to go, they can be a Guide, Scribe etc., but not SPL or ASPL.>> Hi All This is a pretty interesting discussion. I spent several years involved with troop and council JLT, which at the time was called JLTC in our Council. I also communicated with a lot of Councils comparing their JLT programs and performances. Many if not most councils customized there courses as well. The answer to the question of how to fill the courses is first find out why the troops are not going to the course, than fix it. About 10 years ago our Council did a pretty in dept polling of scouts and adult troop leaders to on our JLTC program hoping to understand why we were struggling to fill one course a year. We found that most scouts come back pretty hyped up from the course. But interestingly the main complaint about the course was basically the same from the scouts and adults. They didnt see any noticeable difference in Troop program and performance after the scouts came back from the course. The scouts complained the adults wouldnt let them try the new skills, and the adults were frustrated the scouts werent using any new skills. Further study found that the problem was the adults didnt really know what the scouts learned; therefore they didnt know how to help the scouts take advantage and use the new skills. The scouts on the other hand didnt really make an effort to use their new skills because they didnt really know how to implement new habits and skills into the existing environment, which was much different from simulated program in the course. Being a SM and the Council JLT Chairman, I saw both sides of the problem. The scouts didnt know how to use their new skills in an old existing program, and the adults didnt know what the new skills were to help them implement them into the old program. Example; During our JLTC course, each scout will have written least 20 meeting agendas. The problem is we found that 90% of troop adult leaders dont teach meeting agendas at all. As for the age thing. JLTC was design to develop skills for senior leaders, generally 14 and older. I assume NYLT is the same. We did allow exceptions because some troops are young and dont have older scouts, but it was rare that a 13 year old got much out of the course because the subject was over their head. We had some homesickness, but our main problem was boredom. Now I know of some councils dummy down their material so that they can fill courses with younger scouts, but that usually reduces the course to a Patrol Leader development level JLT. That is fine I guess, but that is really the SMs job, not the council. Looking back, my guess cost is a huge issue. Of course many troops can help the scouts out, but there are a lot of poor small troops out there. These troops spend all year just trying to get to summer camp, NYLT is just simply out of the question. This was a huge issue for use back when JLTC was just around $100. The problem with filling courses comes down to course reputation. We made a lot of changes to our JLTC to change the perception and it worked. We were filling two courses a year looking at a third. But I would say it takes at least three years to change a perception, so it is likely your course will struggle to fill for awhile even after you attempt to fix the problems. Barry

>>That's fine - they should see what a PL is supposed to do, except for attending PLC's.

>>Our local camp has done away with the axe and has restricted wood cutting to just buck saws. Full handled shovels are also included.

>>Ok, there I have said it. I am crossing the Atlantic in a canoe.

>>The TG should be like a guy looking to be replaced. That is, in the beginning he should be basically a Patrol Leader. Gradually he should be move away from the PL role to an Instructor role. The NSP-SA should be just like the Scoutmaster of a truly boy-led troop. He should be in the deep background, only coming forward to make the occasional inspirational message or present a recognition. He should be available to the TG and PL for advice and guidance, but they should have to come looking for him. And of course he should be available for the usual conferences with individual Scouts.

>>When the following years cross oversarrive, the OBS Patrol moves out of New Scout Patrol status and becomes a "regular patrol", they now participate in a different program, but they are still with their buddies. In three years, they graduate to the level of a Venture Patrol. The same eight scouts, in the same patrol, who have stayed together with the program that the troop offered to it changing as the boys matured

Well! I apologize Gonzo1, my advice doesnt fit your situation at all. Your problem is not really a PLC high-jacking problem, it is purely an adult problem. It is very difficult to give advice when we cant see the dynamics of the adults, but I can see how frustrating this is. How does this mother get so much power? How does she hold so much respect and is it her good oh boys club? My one quick suggestion is to somehow get across to CC and SM to get all adult leaders trained. Then bring in a district trainer who will spend a lot of time on the boys part of the program. It is a way of sneaking in the training so everyone can see how the program is running and how it should run. I was brought in to train a troop like this once for about the same kind of reason. I was told later that there was a lot of pressure to change after the training. >>Would some of you please email me a sample PLC agenda / meeting notes for our SPL, please email to jgonzalezdc@doctor.com Thanks

I think Beavah's reply works temporarily for the immediate situation, but usually there is more than one adult thinking this way. And usually they act this way more out of ignorance, not self serving aggressiveness. Happens a lot when a unit gets a few new adults who have a strong personality and they take off in a direction they think is appropriate for the program. They just need a little education. When this happened in our troop, I asked the CC to give me 20 minute on the next committee meeting agenda to teach Aims, Methods, and BOY RUN. We didn't have any trouble after that. By the way, when you teach adults about the program, have the SM Handbook, SPL Handbook and PL Handbook with you so they see that your are doing by the book, not by the Barry method. Have a great scouting week. Barry

From Kudu >>Start by telling this problem Scout the truth: a BSA Troop is NOT "boy-led," it is adult-led. BSA adults do not believe in B-P's Patrol System, so they took all the evaluation powers away from the Patrol Leaders and gave them to themselves. BSA leaders call their Patrol Leader powers "Adult Association." >Patrol elections are a BSA invention dating back to the period before the BSA used the "Patrol Method," when the Handbook for Scout Masters advised "Scout Masters" to keep their Patrol Leaders completely powerless and PLs had only a symbolic "team captain" function.>BSA elections have evolved into Patrols as "Leadership Development" mills where the Scoutmaster trains the most popular boys how to be "leaders.">If it doesn't matter how the program is set up then you must agree that the BSA's Eight Methods of Scouting are of no real importance, but the Adult Association Method, which strips the Patrol Leader of his authority over Tenderfoot through First Class advancement and sets up adults as both moral and technical judges of a Scout's Advancement> Eagledad writes: I don't trust you Kudu Your continued personal attacks are especially inappropriate in a thread about Scout Spirit. Kudu

>>the BSA has the adult-led method called "Adult Association" which is a collection of powers taken away from the Patrol Leaders and given to the adults by the adults.

>>It is designed not to develop kids in as much as to keep parents and kids happy.

>>Since the BSA program, which is used for TLT, states an adult will sign off, I don't see how that can be seen as "emasculating" the PL.

Hey, Im with you brother. It is much better to build a system that forbids human actions of kindness and compassion for fear of that one thing that might possibly happen someday. Idealistic principles should trump common sense and logical reasoning so we can justify throwing out the baby with the bath water. Preach man, preach. Barry

I know, I know, those are all fine Great words Merlyn, Im sure they bring you joy every time you recite them. Still, more boys had access to scouting before adults forced their legalistic idealism on the system. Barry

Never the less, more boys (including boys from families of atheist and Wicca) had more access to scouting before the interference by those trying to force the program be more inclusive. Barry

>>I've seen it done both ways, though myself I always did the elected thing. These days, I lean toward appointed or screened, with youth input. Makes for more youth-run in all the other areas.

>>My answer is pragmatic. If we already ignore this stuff (and I sympathize with desire to remove dead weight), it is just as easy to keep the status quo which is a de facto 'local option' approach. So while I support the removal of the DRP as ineffective or widely ignored and the word, 'God', on similar grounds,...as long as the de facto local option approach continues, I'm OK with that too. In effect, both ways amount to the same thing. The fundamentalists and absolutists will not turn back the clock on this because the numbers are declining and BSA needs to be as inclusive as possible. And, given that the fundamentalists and absolutists are here still, in spite of the widely-practiced local option approach, they are not likely to leave because of it. They just flame off once in a while. And that's kind of interesting to watch too.

>>he is NOT the BSA PARENT figure who judges the Scout's behavior by taking Advancement away from the Patrol Leaders and holding it hostage to his judgement.>However the author looses integrity when the dialog is interlace with insults, rants and negative comments toward other people or other programs. It goes without saying a negative style of discussion doesnt live of up to any definition of the Scout Law and Oath of any Scouting program of which Im familiar.... Hit the "send" button on that classic example of the BSA "Adult Association Method" a little too quickly there, Barry?

Just because they are go-getters doesnt mean they are doing it right. Or that you are doing it right. To me the question isnt whether you should let the PLC realign the patrols or not, the question is why arent the patrols working better as a team and how can we get there? The way I see it, the go-getters are not learning the leadership skills of delegation and the non go-getters are not learning anything about working as a team. Whose job is it to get over that hump? Remember, adults have to learn more, faster, so that they dont hold back the scouts growth. In this case, you have an opportunity to try new ideas to help the scout to work better as a team. At the same time you are going to learn what works and what doesnt work. Every boy has a button, find their buttons. Barry