Eagledad

gwd, you are a successful SM of a successful boy run program. So I know you have answers to your questions. Your program is the best, why do think that? Barry

>>Talked with their (former) Den Leader last night and she told me that story. Seems she was also afraid herself of joining our troop because "you guys are doing it right and that just scares me." She meant that we do, in fact, turn the leadership over to the boys and allow them to make mistakes along the way.

>>And I don't know that that would be a good thing.

>> Are the alternate requirements for scouts with permanent disabilities something to consider in a case like this?

>>Patrol elections are a BSA invention dating back to the period before the BSA used the "Patrol Method," when the Handbook for Scout Masters advised "Scout Masters" to keep their Patrol Leaders completely powerless and PLs had only a symbolic "team captain" function. BSA elections have evolved into Patrols as "Leadership Development" mills where the Scoutmaster trains the most popular boys how to be "leaders."

>>But, maybe it would just have been better to forgo having a Spring Camporee this year.

May I suggest that you first talk with the parents. I got in the habit of talking with all parents as I meet them, if time allowed. Sometimes we talked about good things, sometimes it was bad. But I didn't hesitate to describe what was going on and just ask if they saw anything at home. I've been watching these medication discussions and the one thing that frustrated me was the parent not telling me anything, like that fact their son is on some kind of medication. When several of these kinds of situations occurred, I started asking justifying my question with past bad experiences. If after you have talked with the parents you feel there is something else that needs to be done, then go to a professional. I've had to do that too and trust me, it is not fun. Councils way of handling such issues is to first let the unit deal with it, then they will follow picking up the pieces where they fall. I don't disagree with that method, but you can find yourself dealing with a lot more than you bargained for. In 99.9% of the cases, parents are trying to do their best. We need to assume that when we talk with them. Go talk with the parents first. Barry

Yes, I was just thinking about this runaway thing. I've had one scout who ran away back home and one who ran away from home to come to summer camp. In both cases, I had a long talk with the parents to get a grip on their family situation. True, we are trained scout leaders, but in these kinds of situations, we are really just parents wanting everyone to come home safe. Barry

Depending on the numbers, we may or may not have NSPs, but all our new scouts are assigned a TG responsible for making sure they get a good start. Usually on their first meeting night, the new scouts are going through the exercises to pass the Scout Badge. We do that mostly to teach them our policies for filling out the hand books, asking the SM for a SM Conference and then asking for a BOR. All these responsibilities are up to the scouts, so we show them how to do it right off the bat. Then the new scouts spend the next few weeks learning the basic camping skills getting them ready for their first campout. After that, we will initiate them into tenderfoot skills, but basically from there they are slowly let go to do skills on their own. We provide and offer enough training that if they wanted, they could be First Class in 8 to 10 months. Our program tries to use scout skills through the yearly program no matter what the theme. We typically do first aid every Spring to re-teach those skills. I think we do OK, but we could do better. Now for my Philosophy I used when I was SM. When I was a boy scout, I dont remember Eagle being the top emphasis. I was in a very active Troop of 80 scouts and we didnt have our first Eagle for eight years. First Class was the big hurdle and the rank that everyone celebrated reaching because that is the mark where a boy supposedly could be left out in the wilderness on his own. That was how I tried to run our First Class program. Not sure how well I did, but I have always been offended by todays approach that First Class is just one stepping stone to getting the Eagle. There are a lot of discussions about scouts who dont get past TF for a couple years, and I agree with the idea that it is their choice. But when I was a scout, there was a lot more pressure to being first class mostly because it was important for the boys safety and survival in the woods. Of course I can also remember that First Class had tougher outdoor requirements. There is no doubt in my mind that if we would celebrate and respect the First Class rank like we do the Eagle today, we would have less discussions about scouts who dont really aspire to the Eagle rank, and we would higher numbers of older scouts. I think the quality of programs would climb because there would be more focus on skills and less on advancement. National developed the FCFY program because they found that scouts who earned FC in the First year tended to stay in the program at least another two years. This was also about the time that National wanted to raise the number of Eagles. I think the flaw in Nationals approach was that the units they polled who had quality first year programs werent focused on numbers, they were focused on quality of skills. But that isnt highlighted in todays Scoutmaster Handbook. My wife and I talked a little about the lost Scout last night and she asked where the other scout was? Now she never camped with our troop, but she was talking about that the first rule a scout learns in our Troop while camping is the buddy system. Im sure its the case for most troops, but since this is discussion about FYFC, Im curious to where that rule should fit. Should we add it to the advancement part of the program so it is taken more seriously? In each case of lost scouts that have become National news the last few years, the buddy system either wasnt used or fell a part. I can't recall a single story about the two scouts who got lost. Barry

>>I guess what I intended by this thread was to suggest that as long as they're being active in the program, it may be better to have a few happy older TF scout than a bunch of very young 1st Class and Star scouts who are totally at a loss for how to proceed. (And sure, I realize some younger guys really are ready to tear through the ranks - good for them too! - but I suspect that they're not all that common either. Most, though not all, of the boys who I've seen do this in the last couple of years are being pushed - hard - by their parents, rather than responding to some inner drive at age 10-11-12.)

My thoughts are little different Eamonn. I look back on myself when I was young and dont remember looking up at the trees and sky while I was backpacking. I dont remember the smell of the woods or the quiet of the morning as the light fog faintly hung over the field of wild flowers. Did my scouts, my sons, see the romance of men casting flies in the stream as they sought the elusive trout? Are young eager teenagers capable of stopping to watch such things in the background of green mountains or emerald blue lakes? God has a purposeful design of man. I think maybe you didnt go wrong, you just havent seen the plan blossom into its fullness yet. There is more of you in him than you think. Barry

>>I did of course check this out before plans got made for the trip. As we are going to commercial outfitters, this is not going to be a problem taking our 12-13 year old Scouts. It's a good thing too because we only have two Scouts 14 or over right now!

>>How far do you let boy-led go? Well I think you set the parameters: here's what we (adults) can support. And then you let them fill in the details.... Sometimes we have to make choices.

I have to commend you for your patience. I think you will see a change with in a year, two at most, as he is goes through his physical and mental changes. He is turning into a man and self evaluation in the world is part of that change. Sounds like you are part of a really good troop because in my experience, maturity is based a lot from the experience of the earlier years and if a lot of scouts are accelerating through advancement after age 13 as you say, they are having great experiences. As a mother looking ahead, Im sure this is pretty tough. As someone who watches mothers looking 5 to 10 years back, you will find it all worth it. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I was thinking tho, is there a time when attendance requirements are important, like safety? Our troop does a lot of High Adventure and we usually spend a lot of time preparing for the trips. We usually highly express the participants (adults and scouts) attend the different sessions to get prepared. While I want to say the participation is given in the text of requirements, we have never asked anyone to leave a crew. However, there are several times I think we should have. Problem is you get into the back country and you are stuck. In just about every case I look back on where a Crew member (adult and scout) didnt have good over all experience, it was usually a direct result of not being prepared because they had missed several trek preparation activities. I did get a lot better at training participants and preparing them what was to come, but there is still always that person who has good reasons to miss the preparation. Im more philosophical in my nature and how I approach scouting, so I am rarely hard nosed about things like age, rank and attendance requirements. But experience is showing me that this is one place I think attendance requirements are needed, if for nothing else, life and death. Barry

>>And, as my husband tells me often, we wouldn't be where we are today if you didn't have the vision of what this troop should be. So, my question: Is it OK for the SM to take care more of the indoor part of the program (leadership training, mentoring, conferences, etc.) and leave the outdoor part to the other adults?

>>Leaders lead and follower make excusses.

>>I don't buy the morality argument because while some people seem to need their values dictated by a rule book, others can reason their way to the same values with no rule book.

>>Actually, the purpose of the cuss cup is to deter cussing. And in all the years we have used it, the cussing as decreased to the point of it no longer being necessary.

I have observed in my own experiences and watching PLCs that generally attendance requirements are an easy attempt for lesser experienced leaders to fix difficult problems. But as the leadership gets more experienced and more skilled at their jobs, the attendance requirements go away. Looking back on it, I dont have a problem with some level of attendance requirements for that reason (with in reason). Its kind of like developing a program using JLT. The BSA JLT (TLT) course isnt really all that good, but is a good start for new troops trying to bring JLTs into their program. If our troop has attendance requirements, they were from way way back when. If they are still there, it is only because no one has taken the time to edit them out of the job requirements. Neither the adults nor the PLC have needed to use required attendance for a long time. Barry

>>Mike went on to earn his Eagle & we never had another problem like this again.

>>Or we can just chalk up scout spirit as an ideal to be reached, as defined by the scout and coached by the leadership.

>>Pint- you should have spoken to the toilet-tongued Scouts immediately after using those words and not when you got to a clearing. That gives anyone who may have heard the impression that that behavior is condoned by the troop.

>>He has supposedly changed his mind recently and does want the Eagle award himself, but has failed to show "scout spirit" in any form.

>>By erecting an impermeable barrier between themselves and those on the outside of the social group, people highlight differences and obscure similarities (Think: We dont allow black people in our country club, even if they, like us, are wealthy and have Ivy League degrees).