Eagledad

I think ane evaluation is another good source of communication. True, there are the reviews and confrences, but we tend to get in a groove or rut (depending how you look at it) that could leave folks out. We once did something like this for the families so both the parents scouts could rate the troop. We found out that while the scouts were happy with the program, the parents had some questions about the way we did some activities. For example, there was some concern that adults weren't allowed to the PLC meetings. But the policy is any adult could attend if they first called and got permission from the SPL. Most parents didn't know that. Simple fact that needed a better explination. So we got more proactive in explaining why we did things the way we did. Truth is the adults and scouts need to learn how to evaluate each other and their program through reflections, so these kinds of evaluations aren't needed very much. But an evaluation one in great whiles can be a pretty good reflection itself. Barry

>>I personally don't ever want to be SM, I do think it's important for these young men to have a good male role model... I hang around because I think it's also good for these young men to see that a woman can do all the same things they do

>>And if someone woke me up in the middle of the night and asked me to go watch em pee, I would first wonder if they were serious, second if they were high off of anything, and if they insisted I would probably punch them.

Philmont doesn't really have a problem either. It has the appearance of a problem because the scouting community network is broad spreads news really fast. One incident sets off a pretty big alarm. Im trying to remember, but I want to say that they have had only two bear incidents in the last 20 years with only one of those requiring medical attention. Barry

>>NT in Bissett, MB doesn't use bear bags. The trees that far north just aren't big enough to properly hang a bag. So, bear canoes are the norm. You put the food packs on the ground and a canoe upside down over them, away from the tents. Then stack your pots on the canoe. Anyone hears the pots, rally everyone awake to scare the bear off.

I have always wanted to hike the Mid Alantic area, they say the view is unbelievable. I'll give you a call when we head east so you can point us to best spots. I can see that Philmont is quite a jog from your part of the county. I grew up in New Mexico, so its home to me and Philmont is just a day drive for us from Oklahoma. I'd say we are lucky, but I'm not sure Philmont can beat what you already have. There is the Philmont program of course and that is unique. But as far as a great back county experience, hard to beat the Mid Atlantic. Barry

I guess we are all different in our habits, but I was taught a long time ago that shelter always comes first in the wilderness because a person is a lot more susceptible to hypothermia when they are fatigued. I actually saw this happen to a few scouts on a Northern Tier trip and it certainly made me more aware of the risk. Thatis also what is taught at servival schools. Also the odds to me that a bear will wonder through a bunch of loud campers busy setting up their camp is much smaller compared to being caught in an afternoon rain shower. Ironically the BSA Guides on our Pecos backpacking trip werent near as worry about bears as their counterparts are 100 miles away at Philmont. The Frank Rand Staff were very concerned with hypothermia because they had a couple of very serious incidents. But Philmont has 40000 scouts come through every year and they have to worry about public perception of safety, so they have to show an aggressive reaction to incidents. I think their policy is wrong because it doesnt set a good example for boys who will be future wilderness campers, and I told them that. But they explained their marketing situation and I understand. Im not trying to be defensive because I want everyone to think I am a know it all, Im just explaining why I do it this way. Truth is we are only talking a matter minutes either way. But I guess my experience with hypothermia just reinforced what I was taught. And while I have a very deep respect for bears, Ive set up camp in the rain a lot more than I seen a bear even near a camp. So I play the odds I guess. Barry

I found it interesting at Philmont that the crews very first task after reaching a camp is putting up the bear bag. Back county protocol any other place in the world is set up your tent first incase bad weather sets in. But the bear attacks at Philmont motivated the staff to create an aggressive bear policy. They are so serious about bear safety at Philmont that one adult in another crew was pulled off the trail for being caught not following the bear prevention policies. He was warned once and then asked to leave when he contested the policy to the ranger. The ranger left camp and came back with the camp director who was in no listening mood. And yes, we did have staff members walking through a couple of our camps checking that we were following the bear policies. They are very serious about protecting the scouts against bear attacks. As for our experiences, we found skunks wondering through the camp to be pretty convincing. Beary

>>well the benefit i see to a patrol of 1st years is that they would all be on the same page in terms of advancement.

80 to 90 percent of what a boy learns in a hands-on program like Troops is learned by watching other people perform in natural settings. Boys in New Scout patrols learn about 40% as much as scouts in mixed age patrols because the scouts in mixed age patrol have constant role models to watch. Boys in same age patrols only learn when someone (adult or troop guide) come in to instruct them in a school type format. And the boy scout experience is not near as much fun when you have to sit and listen to teachers all the time just to learn simple skills. Its rare to find a good boy run troop that uses same age patrols because the scouts tend to be exclusive and cliquish. In fact, I have personally never seen a good boy run program with same age patrols because it requires to much adult intervention to maintain a minimum level growth at the boy level. However, there are times when a troop has to use a new scout patrol. One is when a troop receives so many new scouts, the existing patrols cant function with the influx. We found a patrol can only handle two new scouts at a time without messing up the dynamics. Barry

Can you explain why you think the buddy system is required in a tent? I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but we only incourage the buddy system when the scout leaves the campsite. I always tried to look at things like this under the definition of: does it help the scouts practice fitness, citizenship and character? Not sure this subject fits under citizenship or character, but I can see it being a fitness issue. One might look at it as a safety where one scout helps another if one gets sick. However, I personally see a boy growing in maturity by practicing independence, self-relience and organizational skills. A new scouts maturity might require a tent mate for his growth, but the enviroment needs to change for his continued growth. That being said, I could never turn down that new scout who got a new tent for Christmas and has been dreaming about sleeping in it. Barry

>> then you should stick with our current Webelos III program

I don't really know the answer, but the most fun I've had with being an adult role model for a boy run group is High Adventure Crews. Now I admit they don't stay together long, but the bonding and character growth that goes on during that week is tremendous. Barry

Yes, I guess we have to agree to disagree, but if you take a look at every scouting youth organization in North America that gave in the political correctness pressure, you find none of those organizations numbers grew after the change. In fact some of them suffered dearly to the point of struggling to survive. So whether or not there really is a public perception problem with BSA stand on gays, history alone suggest change is not worth the risk. I'm not sure that there is a public perception problem. Oh sure the activist have done their job well to bring to light BSA stand, but is the community really put off by it? Not in our area. Of course I live in a conservative area, but Ive travel a lot and just dont see it. And there are many scouts in our area with gay and atheist parents. So they dont seem to offended that they cant be leaders. Finally, I think before National starts letting outside influences motivate change in the program, they have to attack problems inside the program first because what if the internal problems are the real problem? You spent most of your post on the gay issue, but really you hit the nail on the head with the Cub program. Cubs are the root of a successful Scouting program. I know for a fact that less than 50% of Webelos in our area crossover to Boy Scouts. If that is just the Webeles II numbers, you can imagine the total number of Cub age boys that dont make it the Boy Scouts. I think it is interesting that the focus on this discussion is on the Boy Scouts and many, including me, suggest the old way is the better way. But what about the Cub Scouts? Could it be that that maybe the old way would be the better way for them. Ever since I have been an adult leader in the BSA, the Tiger program has struggled. I have seen many changes to the Tiger program attempting to ease the problems of that age group. But in reference to this discussion, Tigers didn't exist in the old program. Could going back to the old ways be a possible solution here? Barry

You have got some really great advice so far. We started by doing some back packing on campouts and then growing out by looking for camps that customized a trek for our younger group. Camp Frank Rand in New Mexico was a great experience. BUT, looking back on it, the boys aren't as much the problem as the adults. Adults have to be motivated as well to have a good adventure troop program and by starting small, you give the adults time to learn and build experience. High Adventure is expensive just in the gear alone, so you can scare a lot of folks away if you take on to much to fast. Do some local hiking on your weekend camping trips. First just a couple five mile hikes with backpacks. Then do a weekend trip where you actually move the troop to a different location. Not a long hike (5 miles max), but long enough for everyone to learn what you really need and what is just added weight. But make sure you get a good summer trip in somewhere that is scenic and fun. Your troop will likely have the bug to be an adventure troop after that. I really like the idea of finding another troop to learn and gain adventure experiences, but don't forget the Venturing Crews. I have always found them excited to teach Boy Scout Troops. And older scouts always have a good influence on younger scouts. They also have some good canoeing crews that will get you ready for Boundary Waters. They may even offer to go as guides and what a great experience that would be. I also suggest looking for experiences like Hiking in the Pecos Wilderness through Camp Frank Rand because they send a guide with you as well. I think that was really the point where our troop took off because everyone who came back from that trip felt trained in back county camping. The scouts who went on that trip even found Philmont to be bit of a let down after Pecos. BUT BEWARE: A troop that has the reputation of high adventure will grow like crazy because most troops don't do it. The most boring troops are the ones who think adventure starts at age 14. Adventure should start the day a Webelos joins the troop. Give them a reason to buy a pack. Barry

Wow Kudu, I cant put my (bewilderment?) into words. I never read so much, misdirection and hibbery jibbery just to say, Yep, Barry and I disagree. At least I think we disagree, I can't really tell. >>The equal importance theory was introduced to use Hillcourt's invention of the "Methods of Scouting">In Kudu's camp the same thing happens WITHOUT business theory. Scouts don't jump ahead in time machines; it is easy to see a potential leader blossom as he takes on responsibility.>No, Eagledad, "Every Boy a Leader" means a Patrol scaled down to the Cub Scout level.>The Eagledad camp should have the courage of its convictions and take BSA Lifeguard position-specific training away from BSA Lifeguards just like they did to BSA Patrol Leaders!

>>What faith-based morality have they abandoned, specifically?

>>What would constitute coming back to their senses?

>>The theory that all of the Methods are "equal" was introduced in 1972, presumably to garner respect for the questionable new "Leadership Development"

>>it just looks to me like another org set up to make a political statement, and IMO using children to further politics is the worst kind of heinous.

I wish you luck Stosh because this is a time of true reflection. I believe that before anything else, a scouting program has to be fun to grow. Your "roll up your sleeves" comment kind of suggest a work first play later program and that just doesn't work with boys. Doesn't really work that well with adults either in the long term. "Leadership performance" has to be a result of practice in program activities. Program activities has to the fun part of scouting. I think most who have put the time in will agree that it takes a minimum of 5 or 6 years for a boy led program to mature into a true boy run program. It might be that you pushed the time line a little hard. As much as we talk about leadership development coming from leadership training and coaching from the adults, I'm convince that 80% of leadership performance comes from the boys watching other boy leaders in action. It just takes a lot longer than 2 years to for that to happen. We adults know how it should work, but we just can't tell the scouts how to do it and expect them to change, they have to experience it to believe in it. They have to feel that it is worth the effort. Adults have to be very patient because change and growth will not happen at an adult pace. While we may set our vision and goals from a theory, we can't force the theory into reality. A vision or goal is usually met by many many very small changes that come from reflection of performance. Boys are pretty honest about how they feel about things, but sometime our Egos don't allow us to listen. Adults have to grow as much as the boys for a boy run program to become successful. It can't happen on persons terms. You can't force a theory. When ever I heard a scout complain that something, anything, that we did in our program wasn't fun, I challenge them to find a more fun way of doing it. If the scouts don't want to come and play, you don't get the chance to develop them. It may require some sacrifice (patience) on your part. Barry

Well Ive been there and my daughter (now 19) does not look back on my SM days as a time where her brothers had an advantage with me. I do agree there has to be a balance with the family and that requires sacrifices on your part. The SM is presumed needed and wanted everywhere everyday. I was asked a lot, but learned quickly to never accept a request to join district and council training staffs. I promised that I would join staffs after I retired as SM and sure nuff the phone was ringing the day after. I always wanted to go to Training at Philmont, but never did because I limited my time away at summer to two weeks max, one week for summer camp and one for high adventure. I even missed a couple high adventure summers when my vacation was limited. Our family to this day still takes a week vacation together every summer, so that was a higher priority. I also delegated ASMs to attend round table so that I wasnt always expected to represent the troop. I didnt stay at all overnight troop activities. There was no requirement for a SM at all night lock-ins, so I traditionally skipped those. If one wanted, a SM could find a reason to be gone every day of the year, and especially every weekend it they choose. So every SM has to find a balance. I had some conflict with my wife and kids at first and they asked (in their own way) to give them a balance of NON-scout time. We eventually had a rule that NO scouting was discussed at the supper table. I guess we worked it out OK because my wife brags she was very proud of my time as a Scoutmaster. Many Scoutmasters have wives who are fully supportive and even get pretty active with the troop. That was not Tamara. Scoutmaster is different than ASM in that the responsibility for the program wears into a person both physically and mentally. It will make you a better spouse and parent because you get a lot of practice working with both youth and adults. Lots of practice. I even have friends who come to me now asking why their kids are acting a certain way and how they should handle that. Im no Dr. Barry, but they like that I play one when they struggle with their kids. I certainly dont always have answers, but I am surprised by how most boys go through the same phases of life. "Its just a phase" is actually a very comforting to many parents. All families are different, but it was important for me that my daughter got as much of her dad as was required. All the scouts knew Annie well because she attended many meetings. I think it is important to know that I was a soccer coach as well and a member of the church committee. So I really really had to make some hard choices with time and family. I only missed three weekend campouts that I can remember and that was for family activities. Strange, but the troop didnt seem to miss me on those campouts. The rewards are great if you dont get into to much trouble. The opportunity to give boys a little something of yourself that will make their future in life just a little better is hard to pass. The stress is great as well and if you dont force yourself to make the right balances, you will end up with a life time of regrets. But my wife and kids dont look back on scouting with any regrets, so I guess we did OK. I love this scouting stuff Barry

>>But I was never a boy scout so Barry, perhaps by your metric, those experiences didn't count for me.

I don't think it is Cub Scouts because the Cubs have been around for a long time. I think it is in the last generation of leaders who were never Scouts as a youth. Its not that they are self-centered or tunnel visioned, they just don't know what scouting is outside of hand books and leader training courses. I once had a call from a new Scoutmaster who asked me how to fill the rest of the weekend on his campouts because his scouts had done all the advancement and were tired of repeating it. When I asked what they scouts did on their free time, he said he had never heard of free time on campouts. We are forgetting how to let scouts stand around the patrol fire talking about anything. Some of us are more concerned about lights out than looking at stars or two scouts sitting by the fire talking about the day. We hike to advance, but how many of us get up early to go fish. How many troops adults cook on Sunday just so they can get out of camp early? Whats the hurry and how about a little capture the flag before we leave camp. Advancement is the Scoutmasters responsibility but I have found the committee takes on more of that responsibility by signing up the scouts for summer camp and the MB Fair. Old cogers like me seem out of step when we stand up and protest. Not sure we can change the trend as long as more than 50% of the scouters today don't know what it is like to be a Boy Scout. Barry

I personally think its a waste of time to send a scout if somebody doesn't go for the adults side. Way back when, our council ask some questions of all the past scout participants and the Scoutmasters to find where the course was lacking. The number one complain from the scoutmasters was they didn't have clue what the scouts learned. The number one complaint from the scouts was the Scoutmasters didn't let them try their new skills. Our Scoutmaster course was a half day after that, and then we had the scouts sit with the Scoutmaster and discuss how they were going to work in the new skills. The problem is if the SM doesn't understand the new skills and the scout doesn't explain them well, nothing really changes. Its not that the SMs are stubborn or only want to do it their way, the Scoutmaster just don't know how to support the scout on the little information that he receives. Personally I have always felt the SMs really need to attend most of the course to really get an understanding of the scouts part of the course. Send a couple of adults that the scoutmaster trust and will take advice. Barry