Eagledad

>>The first question I would ask is what do the new boys want? If they don't get what they want, they will quit.

>>Merlyn makes two excellent points.

Kudu, I am a ardent believer of "the sum-total of all the natural laws in the universe". I just don't believe that that statement fixes everything. A person can believe in the sum total thing and still not believe in god. If the scout presents me with this idea, that is one thing, but if he told me that an adult said he was OK because of some pantheist belief, well that is something else. I thought my gutless point was a little off the mark and unfair because I feel we are friends and you would see the smile behind it. But nothing you wrote in your following post changed anything I wrote. That surprised me. I was ready to admit my errors and stand humbled. Its kind of funny, I was thinking that you were psychological projectioning when you talked about the atheist Scout and finding a fix to get the Eagle. And now I wonder about the IQ comment. I guess I just don't position scouts like that. You accuse me of some kind of pressure toward scouts in that they would not feel comfortable speaking freely, and yet I've said nothing that would feed that thinking. You would find that my scouts didn't know my religion or my belief in God. After reading your last post, I am convinced that a scout would have more freedom with me than with you. I have too much respect for their abilities to figure it out, no matter what their IQ. And maybe that is why I've never had to find them a fix. What ever fix the scout needs to satisfy himself, he would seek and find himself, even if the fix was "I am an atheist". I want nothing to do with what a Scout believes other than to support him. Its too personal and really none of my business other than what the BSA requires of me, which really isn't that much. I on the other hand admire any man who can make the tough choice, even if that choice means giving up the Eagle. And THAT is what I mean a decision made for life. If the scout gives up the Eagle because of the tough decision, there is no going back. Unless he is before 18 of course. When I think back on the many many discussions Ive read on this forum, it seems only the scouters that have had discussions with atheist scouts are the adults who seem charged up by the BSA restriction of atheist. There is just something that bothers me about that. I know there are stories of over zealous adults push their form of religion on the scouts, but I wonder who is more zealous, those against the BSA or those for. I mean I have had 1000s of discussions with these young man and I have to wonder why I've never had one with a out and out devout atheist. I've had many discussions with boys completely confused and many who just didn't know. I will never forget the counseling the witch. I am sure their are boys who are truly atheist, but to read it from you and a few others here, there are a lot of atheist scouts and just I don't believe that. Its too hard just trying to figure themselves out to make that kind of conclusion without the help of an adult somewhere. I've watched to many adults project their ambitions, fears and beliefs on the scouts trying to sway the scout to their own way of thinking and I detest that. While I've never met an atheist scout, I know several adult Eagles who are now atheist. I only have pity for the ones who knew they were atheist when they got the Eagle. Barry

It seems to me Kudu that you basically just told the athiest scout to say "Repeat after me!" to give you the out. Gutless on both your parts. I have no trouble with a scout trying find his way, which might be the reason I've rarely had trouble with a scout's conflict on the god part of scouting. All boys struggle in developing their identity, its part of nature. I admit that in the many hundreds of scouts I've worked with, I never had one just come out and say he was an atheist. Ive had many scouts with atheist parents, but they all supported the spirtual side of the program. I can't say for sure how I would respond to a scout admitting he was an atheist. Although Im not one to over react to such things, I am sure I would not give him the out so he could get his prize or to save me from saying no! Like other parts of the program, scouts struggle in, I would counsel him to search for the answer and that he can count on me to stand by him, whatever he decides. But! he needs to feel satisfied with he decision because he will have to live with it forever. I guess for me it's not about the prize of the moment, its about the lasting lasting integrity of making the right choice. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

In the scout troop, I learned that scouts in general live down to the lowest expectation of dominating mentor, which typically is the SM. That is probably why I strongly feel the SM should be viewed with unusually high moral principles. Scouts really do want to please their mentors and disappointment by the mentor is typically a life changing experience for the better. But when a few choose not to change, they instead flee. At least in my experiences. So I wasn't surprised to read the scout in this case went to a different troop. That follows the same pattern I've observed and it makes sense I guess, nobody wants to feel the constant heavy burden of disappointment when they choose not to change. Barry

>>Republicans seem to always do what is expedient in dealing with other countries. So even if a country is the antithesis of our values, republicans will support the regime if it supports US interests. Democrats say the right thing but end up doing the same thing. We should become an honest broker in the world.

You might get received for SM if you do. Barry

I used to give Pack management clinics and on top of my must do list for good pack programs was using the same annual agenda every year. First off, this takes the stress off annual planning with new leaders. They just move right into the new leadership position and keep the pack running under the momentum of the previous leadership. Second, it gives the leadership time to find volunteers for the annual activity. We had volunteers for every monthly pack event before the end of the previous May. In fact, our parents knew the program so well that the activity leaders did their own recruiting for the next year and just reported the names to the committee. I dont know how we got that going, but it was great, especially for Pinewood Derby and Blue and Gold. Truth is that while a few talented adults like SeattlePioneer have the creative skill to change the program and keep it interesting, most volunteers arent that good. From a district point of view, it is a challenge just to get the packs to have any kind of annual agenda, much less one that can be repeated every year. I agree with Joebob, its up to the Den Leaders to keep the fun in the program because they see the scouts three times a month compared to the Pack that likely only has one activity a month. If the pack provides one different activity each month, then the scout only participates in the activity once a year. That is not to say that creative planning is not a good thing. I wish every pack had a SeattlePioneer. But most packs arent that well managed and an annual agenda that a pack can repeat every year well is more desired than hoping that the pack can create any kind of agenda any year. Packs with creative people have great programs. Packs that dont can still have fun programs provided they schedule the activities far enough ahead to give the volunteers time to plan them. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Personally I don't understand why people think only ADULTS can manufacture competition. My experience is that boys do that quite naturally and easily themselves, whenever given an oppotunity

>>If one uses Barry's idea of fear and ego, I'm thinking it is more ego than fear. A SM has in his/her mind that the success of the the troop rests solely on him/her and then proceeds to insure it happens. The SM thus turns into a control freak.

>>Sorry. I remain unimpressed.

The way we got around the no adult patrol outings fear was to first do them at a scout camp where the camp ranger could check on them. The funny thing about it though, is the scouts didn't see the big deal of camping without adults because it was no different than our troop canopies where the patrols generally camp out ou sight of eac other anyways. I personally had a fear of fire, so we had the fire department visit and explain the risk of improper fire techniques in the out doors. But a really good teacher is visiting the burn unit of a hospital. Our guys are experts in the area of fire, but men will be men, so firstaid training is a high priority. We (knock on wood) have never had a fire accident. I will say I have witnesses scouters doing some really stupid things with fire. The key to getting past fears is first admitting that they are a problem in restricting scouts growth. Your husband doesn't see his fears as a problem. or he isn't willing to push himself out of that comfort zone, or circle. Barry

>>I make my own car to show off to moms like that. I take the block of wood right out of the box and spray paint it a couple of times. I make decals from Cub Scout literature and stick them on the sides of the car.

Eng61 represents how we adults limit a scouts growth in the program. When I taught classes for scout leaders, I explained that adults control the unit by fear and egos. Hey, we all do it, but some folks are extreme. Typically its 80% fear to 20% ego, so I wiil stick with fear for now. I call these adult fears the circle of fear of a unit. Inside the circle is a comfort range on which the adults will allow the scouts to make their own decisions in their troop actinides. Outside the circle? No way! I knew of a troop that wouldn't even let their scouts go to their classes at summer camp without adult supervision. Another troop struggled and almost shutdown because the adults didn't even let the scouts run their opening ceremonies. What the adults of all units have to do is first recognize they have these fears and are limiting the scouts program, and then train the scouts and themselves to push out the circle of their fear. Training develops confidence in the scouts abilities and allows the scouts to make more decisions where adults used to fear scouts going. I remember using the example in one of my classes of letting scouts do a 5 mile hike without adult supervision. I just pick that off the top of my head, but one scout leader got very upset and loud of how reckless that would be. So I asked him his fears of allowing scout to hike without adults. He started with a scout getting hurt and I explained firstaid training. He then mentioned getting lost and I responded with more training with map and compass and start with routes the scouts are familiar with, even if that is in town. Then he stated his real fear of molesters and bullies. I pointed out safety in numbers and again picking a safe route. The idea I explained is knowing that a scouts growth is only limited by the adults fears, so the adults need to Knowingly push out that fear circle (all the time) through training for continued scout growth. That adult left the class kind of irritated, but he approached two years later at a Wood Bagde course and said he thought a lot about training through the fears and it changed their program a lot. He bragged that his troop had since done several 5 mile hikes without adult supervision. Now, that is how to deal with the fear side of the adults. Some adults are to proud to admit that they have fears or can train past those fears. That is the Ego circle and that is a different adult problem all together. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

//Oh, and his character will probably turn out OK, but save that speech for some other aspect of the program.// To each his own I guess, but I am anal that living the scout law is developing character and every right decision a person makes requires some combination of those traits. A boy has to make more decisions in a patrol environment than just about any other youth organization in the community. I'm one of those who believes that the more wrong decisions one makes, the more their character grows. I wanted my guys to screw up. Barry

//Safe environment for failure// This is what makes the BSA different and patrol method successful. Barry,

Sounds like you have it .under control, good job. A longer wheelbase is an advantage because the car will move back and forth across the track less than cars with shorter wheelbases. Every time a car wiggles back and forth, the wheels hit the track creating more friction that's slows down the car. Barry

The first response from UCEagle is excellent advice. There isn't much else to add accept that lisabob has had some similar experiences, so I suggest keeping the forum up to date seeking more advise from her and UCEagle. We can't really know your adults, but if one really is controlling, my experience is they won't change even when they know the right thing to do. I think that is what qwazse was saying. You need an adult they respect enough to listen to when they are being told that they are going too far "again". And by the way, you will run into these types of folks the rest of your life, so learning how to deal with this situation using the scout law is a life lesson. Barry

>>It has been a struggle, but I think we're in a great place right now. In all honesty, what it has taken so far is to get other adults to step back, set up expectations with youth leaders, offer training, communicate often, turn the program over to them and then step back.

Yes, just like Scoutfish, I am a survivor of Melanoma Skin cancer and my scouts knew it every time we started the day outside. I was seen, and "heard", slathering sunscreen on my exposed skin and asking everyone else if they put theirs on yet. The stuff was the heaviest thing in my pack. Anyway, I didn't harp them, but it was pretty close. It's the exposure to the sun during the teen and young adult years that gets us later. I only had to show them my scar for them to understand why. They were good kids and rarely gave me to hard a time about my nagging. Barry

BP, I'm not sure of your point, 83 doesn't have your ideal scenario. The ACM was my way of taking the extra work off the CM. If the ACM can develop and run a functional quasi Pack committee, then the pack is running normal like most packs. Then when the CC does decide to step down, the committee is already in place and the leaders only need to change their titles. I imagine the present CC will be glad to help this along. Barry

We have a troop in our district with the exact same problem. If I were you, I would find a new CC adult and make him the ACM of Adult Program. Then have him run his/her responsibilities like a normal unit committee. They should even invite the CC to the Adult Program meetings to be polite. I think you will find even the district and council will respect your Adult Program committe as the Pack Committee because it serves the purpose of a unit committee without anyone getting hurt. These things can be sticky. In our case, nobody wants to ask the CC to step aside because he is the oldest scouter in the state in one of the oldest troops in the state. There is some honor and respect there even if he is running the troop in the ground. Barry

There are no rules, so you can try something new. Maybe a Friday night AOL indoor campfire with s'mores for everyone after the ceremony. Our pack started doing the AOL ceremony in the January pack meetings so the Blue and Golds didn't run so long. It was really more of a arrow presentation from the den leader because we presented the AOL as soon as the scout earned it. Some scouts had earned the AOL several months before. Barry

Scout fish my brother, I am already excited to read your future post on this forum after you have a few years experience working with our sons because you will have great suggestions based from experience, I'm sure of it. While I like to use the phrase that "scouting is the real world scaled down to a boys size." I am also a firm believer that we have power in the BSA mission:"The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." A little something from a scouter with many scars of doing it wrong, when confronted with a challenging scout, dont write them off. Ask for help from someone with experience and maybe become a hero to the scout and his parents. You have the power to make a difference in our sons life. Barry

>>After Ms. Palin's statement this week, I'd be really surprised if she even gets much serious media coverage for a run in the primary, given how she tried to deflect responsibility for what some see as incendiary rhetoric on the media.