Eagledad

As I've said before, around 75% of volunteers never had a youth scouting experience. The BSA has evolved toward adults being ignorant of the youth perspective of scouting. Nobodies fault, but how do we fix that?

Well actually the PORs are supposed to develop and encourage character, fitness and citizenship. I had a discussion with my dad about leadership and Eagles and he said that when he was a scout in the 40's, the Eagle represented character more than it represented leadership. Being a Scout in of itself represented leadership. Character was so important that judges were used by some councils for EBORs. Who knows why the BSA started requiring PORs as part of the Eagle requirements, but it has really muddied the water. If we were each asked privately the traits of leadership, I'm sure the answers would differ a lot. As a result, scouts outside of our troop transfering from other troops have been set up to fail. I'm not sure judging character was all that much easier. Barry

And I think that pretty much explains your cynical view of the scout program. You are out to prove Stosh Scouts is the best program, not Boy Scouts. You make it up as you go along then call it Scouting. Oh, you aren't the first, Kudu has a big jump. But Stoshs and Kudus come and go and leave little for others to follow and carry on. Remember Stosh, the saying goes that one man’s “boy run†is another man’s door to being the puppet master. What is rule number three of your three basic rules? "If the SM doesn't like the way scouts do the first two rules, the SM takes over." From my perspective, "THAT IS NOT BOY-LED, it is called SM-LED! The SPL is a position for assisting the PLs to run their programs. They come off as the scout in charge by outsiders because they stand in front of the troop during assemblies. But a mature troop guides and teaches their SPL to serve the PLs by helping them grow from their experience. The SPL can be a teacher, guide, mentor and cheerleader. The SPL should be a senior scout who has the experience and knowledge to help the PLs grow in areas like leadership, followship, meeting organization, group organization and servant leadership. In most cases the SPL should do most of the teaching by simply setting an example. The SPL should run his meeting exactly the way the PLs should run Patrol Corners. The SPL works personally with the PLs exactly the same as they should work with their patrol. The SPL is a servant to the PLs and needs serve exactly the same way the PLs are servants to the patrols. A good SPL will let the situations come to him and then attend to the situation by guiding the scout to create a solution and act. Most new PLs struggle with leadership because while their position gives them the authority, they may not have yet earned the respect of his fellow scouts as being the leader. That is where the SPL should help the PL grow in the position by using tools like conflict resolution, rosters, and delegated shared tasks among the team. I found my new SPLs struggle to just stand and wait for situations, they want to dive into everything because they know the answers and have yet to develop the patience to let the other scouts figure it out. Hmm, sound like adults, doesn’t it. But the SPL is a growing position just as much as any other POR. Who should the SPL use as an example of his responsibilities, the adults and more senior scouts. Where many Troops fail with the SPL is they put an inmature scout in the position who doesn’t have the skills to help the PLs grow in their positions. So yes many times they end up dictating what the SM tells them because neither the SM nor the SPL really know what to do. But that is not a flaw of the SPL position, it is a flaw in the adults not yet understanding scout growth. These are common skills that just about all troops and ALL adults have to learn to develop. How do we adults learn? By doing and then evaluating the results and changing to do it better next time. Kudus and Stoshs are rare, the rest of us aren’t born as perfect scout leaders. We have to humbly learn and grow. The SPL like the JASM are wonderful growth opportunities for scouts who have reached that level of maturity. When the adults start to use the positions from that perspective growth instead instead of requirements for rank, then all the PORs seem to step up in growth and the troop as a whole becomes much more mature. A troop is only as good as its senior leadership. You can observe that in every troop. Look for it at next summer camp. You will see what I mean. But the real trick is that true growth comes from the young scouts observing the older scouts in action. Barry

We try to keep the Den Leaders out of the pack activities committees like B&G, Pinewood, summer swim, and so on. And in most cases the chair of each activity recruits a couple assistants for the purpose of heading the activity the next year. Traditionally in our pack the 2nd year Webelos parents plan and run the B&G with help of the 1st year Webelos parents. You are right, planning the same basic annual Pack calendar makes it a lot easier. Barry

Yes, we also do only one planning session for the whole year (June). The committee still meets once a month to keep the program running smooth, but the Den Leaders are left alone. We keep them updated with Committee Meeting minutes and news letters. Barry

30 adults is normal for a troop of 90 scouts. That is about 15% of the total resource which is a typical number for any size troop. And, that doesn't mean they are all together at the same time. Typically only half the ASMs will attend each campout. Usually summer camp is where most volunteers will attend. The best way to increase the number of volunteers is to ask face to face. Some folks are better at asking than others. Identify who that person is and use their skills. Our troop developed a one month of training new parents. It usually involves just observing the boys in actions and explaining how all the parts work. We get a lot of volunteers from that group as well.Barry

"Highest rank", "work their way through", "patch to wear", "knot to wear". I know those quotes may be a little out of context, but this might not be the right frame of mind. I did exit interviews with 100s of Webelos and I can't recall that rank or patches being a reason for quiting or crossing over. The word "fun" came up a lot. I'm not saying I agree with the changes, I generally don't. But I can't help but feel that we adults have misunderstood priorities for the Webelos experience. Barry

Our CC once told me about a first year scout at summer camp that they had just finished doing his 2nd class BOR. When they asked him what we just discussed at his SM conference, he said he had not had one yet. When they told him we had it an hour earlier where I bought him an icecream bar and talked, he said that I always have friendly chats with him, so he didn't know the difference. The word conference confuses a lot of us into thinking it should be a formal meeting with a somewhat business style discussion. And it can be, especially Eagle conferences. But my personal style of scoutmastering is talking to scouts enough to already know the answers of what might be asked at a formal conference. You have the advantage Scouter205 of being about the same age as the scouts, so you can and do have a lot of discussions with the scouts. I think what I and many scoutmasters (and adults in general) need to practice is just listening. That is so much harder than you think. I remember my first SPL while I was a SM, he just wasn't performing up to my expectations. I decided to ask him to dinner for pizza so we could talk about his performance. I was also concerned how to approach this discussion, so I asked here on Scouter.com for some help. This was back when the forum was a lot more active with experienced scouters. I got all kinds of answers, but one very wise scouter asked me if I knew how he felt about his performance so far. That question hit me like a ton of bricks. I had never asked. So I did ask that night during pizza and his face lite up while bragging about all the skills. He went on and on of how he was getting better at teaching, running meetings, creating agendas and so on. I was so focused on where "I" wanted him to go that I had forgotten to see how far "he" had come. All that by asking one single question and then just listening. In just a few minutes, I had gone from being disapointed with my SPL to being very very proud of him. Being proud is so much more fun. I think it would be good to listen in to a few conferences if your SM thinks it is OK. Sometimes the discussion my be more personal than fellow scouts needs to know. But remember, each SM has their own style, so learn from what you hear, but realize that you will likely do it a little different to fit your style. I guided my scouts with your maturity to just practice talking a little less and listening a little more. Practice asking questions without ever really giving your own answers because it is the other persons answer that is important. Just asking "was that fun or what" gives people and opening to feel good about themselves. Try to do less guiding and instead ask a couple questions to get the other person to guide themselves. You don't have to always come off as the know-it-all. Give them a chance to see that they know-it too. As SM I might ask how a scouts actions practiced the scout law. Then I leave it up to him to determine if and how he did that. Try to be as good a cheer leader as you are guide of their moral actions. I'm glad to see that you are wanting to learn more to improve your future. Very mature, very smart. I'm sure you will be a great JASM as well as SM. Barry

They won't ignore you, they will give guidance if asked. But they won't aggressively come to your door and start an investigation. They tend to stand in the corner as much as they can until the issue requires a council level action, which is rare believe or not. If you could stand in the shoes of a DE for one day and listen to their many phone calls, you would start to understand why they take the passive approach. 9 times out of 10 the units fix the problem. Council sees so many of what looks like a mountain to a parent, but are just a mole hill once the emotions are balanced with reason. So they wait it out. Of course if it is a true situation of abuse where scouts are in real danger or laws have been broken, council will react responsibly. The best advice for all units is nip your problems in the bud. Don't let known issues escalate into dangerous situations, which is what most folks are saying here. But most adults don't like drama, they especially don't like confrontation and they don't want to be a bad guy, so they wait it out for someone else to act. And they wait, and they wait until something goes too far. That is generally how most of these things go. I am sure this SM showed signs of his problems long before it got to this stage, but nobody stepped up. And while I say bad guy, they aren't really the bad guy, most folks are waiting for someone to step up. But, we all perceive that it would be the bad guy. In reality they are relieved that somebody did what they wanted to do. This situation is more of a problem because the SM's wife is the CC. By rule, the CC doesn't have anymore repsonsibility in this situation than an ASM. But because the CC is responsible for soundness of the troop structure, they are generally relied on to an active role in fixing the problem. But now it is best that she not be an active part of meetings on this particular situation. She should be told there is a meeting, and will be briefed by the COR or Council representative depending on the results. One last thing, it is my observation that women handle the responsibility of acting prudently better than men. The best committee chairman in our units have always been women. they have no fear of getting in the face of an adult who getting out of line. I have watched SM after SM paint themselves into a corner by passively giving adults AND scouts second and third chances, then the CC or COR, or council is left to save the day when angry parents are threatening litigation. Barry

Unlikely. Typically SE's encourage the unit to deal with it. They have enough problems and resist taking on more by getting involved in every units issues. And you would be surprised how often these kinds of problems occur. During my first year as a CM, our pack had to ask two Den leaders to quit because they were drinking during meetings and deal with one parent who got drunk during a council Cub science lock-in. To the parent's credit, he was so embarrassed that he checked into rehab that week. But my point is leaders with severe personal issues is pretty common, so the council pushes the unit to deal with them as best they can. They will observe and monitor if you request or if litigation becomes a risk. Barry

We had a troop do this exact same thing. The only difference was the SM wanted to stay, so the committee let him. Council did it for them when the SM got caught offering a scout a beer at summer camp. This SM had caused all sorts of other problems for the troop as well, but they didn't want to be confrontational. Your SM is out and I would be surprised he steps back in. But my own personal experience is that most folks will let things escalate pretty far simply because they don't want to be bad guys. If and when the time comes, you will have to be the bad guy. I don't think the time will come, but if it does, be ready. Barry

I guess what you want is for the troop to forget the review. My experience with troubled adults is that their problem doesn't typically improve in a short time. You got the hard part done, the SM voluntarily left. You just need to shut the door. If it were me, I would call a meeting with only the CC and COR and ask them how they are going to tell the SM that it is over. I arranged this same kind of meeting for an abusive ASM. Don't make it an option. This is the best thing for everyone and I'm pretty sure the SM will be relieved. Barry

We keep and extensive MB counselor list first of all. Ours is much better than counsels or districts. We make it by trading list with other troops. Another thing we do is ask at least two counselors a month to introduce themselves to the scouts and give a five minute commercial about their badge. They leave flyers with their name and number for scout who interested. That is 24 badges a year just from doing that. I don’t care for MB colleges, but we allow the scouts to participate if they want. A few do, usually those who need only a couple to complete a rank, but it is not pushed. Then once in a while a counselor will announce that they will be around on a specific day, evening or weekend and anyone who wants to earn that badge should call them. I don’t like group classes, but some badges just lend themselves to it, so we allow it if the scout initiate the contact and learn more about the class and times. This has always been popular for car mechanics and rocketry. I can’t believe your camp wont let you do a troop activity. It’s no big deal to them other than a couple of staffers putting in overtime. Of course it has to be done during free time, but that really isn’t that hard. I think shooting sports are our scouts favorite. Next year call the camp and tell them you expect them to provide a troop activity, or two. Then work your way up all they up to the Council Executive if you have too. Barry

Some years ago I was talking to the new camp director who was tasked with adding more fun and adventure activities to the summer camp program. I don't remember much of the discussion except that he said liability insurance for mountain biking was ten times more than any other activity in camp. Really the problem is with the unit leaders. Councils generally build their camp programs around the desires of the troops. I think troop leaders just don't know how to have fun. I agree that scouts are much more wanting of fun than advancement when given the choice. Our troop plans additional activities at summer camp like our own campfires and group activities on the water front, shooting ranges, or whatever the camp offers. We ask the staff to blocked out a time for the troop and we have never been turned down. The troop also brings whiffle ball sets, baseballs, footballs, chess, checkers, cards and whatever else scouts can grab for a few minutes. Our scouts are always filling their spare time something other than advancement. Another BIG problem I've seen in our area is that most troops really only have a couple of advancement seasons. Typically it is summer camp and something in the winter like a MB College. They have to do advancement at camp for scouts to advance. Our troop works on advancement all year long. So for us "Fun" is the primary motivation of summer camps. That's why we typically look for camps that are little different than our local camp, we are looking for fun activities. And we always try to do a special activity on our way home. Anything from a day at Six Flags to White water rafting. It's kind of a Catch 22, troops complain about camps being MB Mills, but the camps only do what the troops want. Camps don't need to change, they are followers and change by nature. Troops need to change by learning how to bring the fun to camp. I Love this scouting stuff. Barry

They do, and that is the point, what does recognition have to do with the growth with any of those things? How does earning the Star rank better a scout in responsibility, leadership, service and Scout Spirit than actively serving as PORs, participating in community services and planning outdoor activities, campouts and treks? I just don't see rank representing maturity. And I don't see adults who allow scouts to make their own decision on advancement as bad leaders. Just doesn't make sense to me. Barry

What are the ranking skills of a Star Scout?

So I can understand you opinion better stoshs, let me asks: You often refer to Eagle rank as the highest honor of respect, could you ever imagine your troop's most respected scout to be only of First Class rank because advancement was never a priority in his scouting career? What would you do with the scout if he clearly was better at this scouting stuff than you. If a SM forces a scout who skills are far advanced for the PL position to be PL, isn't that SM limiting the growth of that scout as well as the scout who needs the PL experience for further growth? There is no right or wrong answer, but they might help me understand how you use work with scouts. Barry

I think you know what needs to be done, your troop has to have a heart to heart talk with dad. He needs to understand that your troop works with scouts as individuals, guiding them to each set their own goals and learning how to create paths to those goals. The adults job is only to help the scouts gain the skills to create their paths. Parents have to much emotion for that to work, so it is best they step back from personally guiding their son. This needs to be done in a way that the parent sees it as guidance from the group as a whole and not from just you or the SM. The problem here is that the group as a whole may not want to get involved in the drama even if they agree. But the sooner you deal with it, the easier it will be. Talk with your other adults and try to get everyone on the same page. Then two of you (you and the SM) invite dad over for a cup of coffee and a delicious cinnamon roll dripping with gooey sugar and butter. Barry

Well I so have some experience in this area and I had the reputation around here of being the master of doing something different, so I feel I can toss out a few things to help you along. First, don’t expect the scouts to jump on this because it is outdoors. Scouts do lots of outdoor stuff, so it is not an incentive. Adults are different that they are looking to learn from the experience, so they jump at it with both feet. Scouts on the other hand are into adventure and trust me when leadership development is thrown in the mix, they don’t see the adults vision. Adding more outdoors for the sake of “development, training, learning, growing†or anything like doesn’t come off as fun for scouts. What attracts scouts is “new†and “different†adventure. In my mind National has lost sight of how their program gets to their vision of developing men of character. But our troop even looks at High Adventure Treks as development experiences. How many discussion have you seen on this forum are specific to insuring scout growth on a Philmont trek? My point is be different, first create a great adventure, THEN work the growth of leadership development into the program. Here some ideas, drop off the patrol at one end of a camp in the dark and tell them they have to pack their gear and hike 4 miles to the other end of camp, by following a map, by a designated time where the adults will have hot supper ready and waiting the next day. The teamwork required to just set up and break camp is a big challenge for scouts, much less doing it in a timely manner. Then you can add lesson session (FUN lesson sessions) on stops along the way. Or you could add canoeing and biking as part of the trek. Our troop did a similar troop campout at our scout camp where we had access to canoes. Another way of doing this is have the patrol campout Friday night at your troop meeting location then break camp the next morning to back pack through town to another location. I planned something like that for a camporee. District didn’t use it. But you see the point, different is good if it is adventure. The hard part about this is that the adults have a vision of growth and the scouts have a vision of adventure. IT NEVER GOES THE WAY THE ADULTS EXPECT. And, you really need to understand the lessons or growth that you want the scouts to gain from the experience. There is nothing like an adult or SPL babbling away on some leadership thing that makes little sense because they really don’t know what they are talking about. Keep the lessons simple so that the scout get-it. You can talk about the four styles of leadership or the four steps to team building for hours, but trust me in that is the 80% of the yakking the scouts don’t take home. The point you want the boys to take away with them should be said in one sentence. I agree fully with you that the experience in the activity should guide them into the growth you want them to gain. I have found that time to be the best teacher, not the activity. I wish I could get adults to understand that agendas are the adults best friend. Imagine and agenda where the scouts have to get up, break camp, hike two to four miles for lunch at 11:00 am. Lunch will be gone by 11:10 am, so the scouts have to be on time. And before lunch, there will be two adventure rest stops where the scouts will be challenged with their skills. The adventure stops are your opportunities to teach. But they should also have some kind of reward for the scout. It can be anything. The agenda also had dinner at 5:00 but the scouts must have their camp set up for inspection before they can eat. All time between inspection and dinner is free time at the lake to fish, swim, canoe or whatever. See how time drives scouts toward an objective. Each objective has an incentive because incentives are adventure for the scouts. It’s not about that boring growth stuff to them, it’s about getting to the fun stuff. I remember our Philmont group had a busy day the next day and one of the stops was fly fishing. We adults didn’t have to say a thing for them to realize that if they wanted some time for the fun fly fishing, we needed to be on the trail by 5:30am in the dark. So they planned out the night before how they we going to do that, and we did. They worked as a team for that one incentive and they functioned better as a team the rest of the trek. I couldn’t have predicted that, time did it for me. To have a successful experience like you want, make it the weekend an adventure for the scouts and make the lesson leaders understand their subject. Your guys will go home ready to make your troop the best troop in the district. And this years participants will be next years program planners and leaders. It is just so cool. And when the other troops here about this, they will want to participate as well. I've seen happen. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Have you experienced this style of leadership training Hedgehog? I would be interested in hearing about the scouts experiences from it. Barry

The intent of service in our troop is to experience and develop the habit of serving others. We are trying to develop a natural state of mind. Our troop has a lot opportunities for service hours, so I never really cared what the scouts logged because I know they do more than reqired. Our PLC schedules a service project for every campout. At summer camp one year I watched a scout showing off a project to his younger brother that he had worked on several years before. Barry

I have no doubt that you are doing your son a great service with no intention of abusing the system. Many folks add additional rules and policies to prevent abuses they fear could happen, or has happened in the past. There is another discussion where many forum members feel the SM should not be a MB counselor for scouts in SM’s troop. It is not a BSA rule, but some feel the rule is needed to prevent abuse. For some of us, me included, the experience of earning the badge is just as important, if not more important, than the badge itself. The BSA recommends a process for each scout to follow that goes something along the lines of requesting a MB Counselor list form the SM, select a counselor, communicate with that counselor to set up a schedule for a meeting, get the counselors personal information to fill out the MB card, and present the MB card to the SM to for a signature. It is a pretty complicated process for most 10 and 11 year olds and requires they practice some communication skills. But they usually have it mastered by their 3rd badge. I would hate for a scout to miss out on some or all of that process because those skills are used a lot during their scouting experience. That is just one example of why the experience is important, there are many others. We have had scouts transfer from other programs who had the opposite experience. The adults in their troops performed all those actions I listed and the scout never even saw his cards until his Eagle BOR. For many of us, the process is important for scouts growth and maturity. Many leaders don’t see it that way. That is the reason for some of the replies that you are seeing. Barry

We have expereinced the same ambiguity from Eagle transfers and I'm guessing it has more to do with the scout being a stranger to the enviroment, not the position. I find the relationship between the JASM and the troop evolves into what it is, where as the transfer is given the postion without a lot of expectation. Generally our transfers age out before the the relationship gets broken in. That being said, I ran into of our past scouts who was an Eagle transfer. He was only our troop for a year before he aged out and joined the Army. He told me that his one year with our troop was one of his best memories of his scouting experience. So I guess we did OK. He was the scout I've mentioned before who resuscited a baby found at the bottom of a pool. Barry