Eagledad

Not so much as leadership training, but before the G2SS restriction, we took the patrols to play indoor laser tag. Participants are divided into groups and then compete to win by tagging each other out until the last man standing. Each competition last about five minutes, but it is a fast furious five minutes. I have never witness a faster or better team building activity. Patrols of Scouts who barely knew each other at the beginning were full functional patrols an hour later. To win each group must come together as a team almost instantly. The leaders pop out quickly because there is no time for shyness. To win, a team member ask for ideas and pulls together a plan in a matter of 30 seconds that every member agrees and follows. It was truly amazing to watch. I found this activity to be the best team building activity I have ever useen. I learned that finding activities which appeal to boys and are of a competitive nature build teams the fastest. The more intense the activity, the faster it pulls the team together. In a larger picture, "time" serves the same purpose at a troop level. Agendas or schedules with incentives to stay on schedule is another great tool to force groups of boys into functional teams. Barry

Good job. We have done something like this and found as did you that scouts love solving problems. The more you can get the problems scouting oriented, the better. I remember one of our adults had a couple older scout handbooks with the Semaphore Flag signal translation. He handed the books to the patrols with a couple of flags and gave them a couple messages. He separated them by a couple hundred yards and told them they couldn't have lunch until each Patrol learn the message of the other patrol. He didn't give any other instructions. The scouts had so much fun figuring it out and sending messages that they asked for another message instead of eating lunch. Many of us old timers remember that most of the skills competitions at Camporees where problem solving events that required using scouts skills to complete. For example: The patrol leader is told that they just walk on a 50 ft. diameter pond with someone struggling to swim in the middle. Each scout in the patrol has an eight foot rope; how will they save the struggling swimmer? They have one minute to save the swimmer. Of course the proper knots tied correctly gets a lot of points, but the patrol has to get the rope to the swimmer as well. There is only one way it can be done in one minute. In fact as I think about it, we injected a lot of our old scouting ideas into training sessions. Our scouts found that they loved Chariot Racing. Anyone remember Chariot Racing? Well done MattR. This goes back though that an inexperienced troop that has never done training before can't just go out and try these ideas. It takes the adults some time to understand what training does for scouts and how to inject creativity into the training once they do figure it out. The BSA course is a good place to start. Barry

Some of the responses remind me why we moved away from the BSA training course. I'm not complaining about the course because it helped get us started when we were kind of clueless about junior leadership training. But we found that scouts only needed the course once. After that, it was extremely boring. And we found that once our troop was maturing and had developed set routines, the course didn't really meet the needs of the scouts. So we developed two courses. One course was for scouts that had no leadership experience. It was an overnight course that gave the scouts basic skills of leading they may have not observed in their patrols. The other course was presented after each election. It is basically a couple hours of guiding scouts of their new responsibilities. As for the leadership and management skills the scouts uses, we found that the scouts had at least the raw basics already from observing their predecessors. If the scouts were struggling in specific areas, the SPL would set up quick courses for that specific to the need. A scout theoretically never has to repeat a training course until they are instructing or directing it. Barry

Back in the day when Brownsea was the course, many of scouters referred to it as JLT. So yes, some folks might think of it as JLT. Brownsea was a really good course. Barry

Yep, this is a huge problem with units when they don't have the proper examples to guide them. It can also be a problem when the Districts and Counsels set bad examples of policies and activities. Our troop does adult and scout training different than an another troop, much less the District and Council. I learned quickly as a volunteer for District and Council that I couldn't go around teaching our specific Troop courses as the general District or Council courses because most units are not like ours in the details, especially the newer units with adults who don't have a lot of experience. BSA published courses are the best starting places for troops looking to start youth leadership training. Then they can modify the syllabus or even start their own style of training once they understand the objectives and specific requirements for their program. Barry

In the last year, I bought about $100 worth of popcorn from the Boy Scouts and $100 of cookies from the Girl Scouts. I give the popcorn back to the scouts so they could double their sales, although this year I heard they donated it to the Military Service Men and Women. Pretty cool really. I give away just about all our cookies to our adult kids. OK, my wife hides one box of Thin Mints in the freezer. I admit that I wouldn't be as likely to spend as much money on the Girl Scouts if the little girls weren't so darn cute. Kind of the same reason Cubs can sell a lot more Popcorn in person than the Boy Scouts. Same goes with Scouting for food, the Cubs are just better. We have not seen Campfire around here in a while, are they still selling candy? That candy is sooooo good, we give it tour kids of course, but one box is always sacrificed to the freezer god. By the way, unless things have changed, the BSA units got 40% profit while the Girl Scout units got somewhere around 10%. Barry

That is a good answer and one I would take to the SM for a curious response. I would also be curious what has motivated that suggestion. Is there frustration or just an idea of his own. A lot times the young scout is just sounding off what the older scouts are saying. This will be something interesting for you to ponder. Barry

Before you ask how to make it happen, ask the scout what he means by boy led. You would be surprised at what boys think boy led means. Barry

The scout is not in the middle of the circle, he is an equal part of the circle. Actually a square since typically it's just the four of them. Barry

THIS IS WHY THE BSA SHOULD TAKE TIGERS OUT OF THE CUB PROGRAM! Oh wait! Wrong discussion. Sorry Barry

We had a few surprises, mostly from scouts who transferred from other troops that weren't yet familiar with the policy differences. We were doing a Star BOR for one scout who just joined our troop. It turned out that he had not yet met his leadership requirement. I can't remember how it got past the SM Conference, but we couldn't let the scout continue, so we talked a lot of how to present the situation to the scout so that it was a negative experience. Turns out he kind of saw it coming, but was too shy to say anything. All was well. Then we had a few challenges with some mentally challenged scouts. We learned to have the parents close by so we could refer to them if needed. Barry

First, lets remember the purpose of the BOR. It is a quality check on the Scoutmasters program, not the scout. If the scout appears to be unprepared, the SM should be held accountable. A good scoutmaster wants to hear the results to learn of areas that may need attention. I certainly did. Our troop has been using the guide Torchwood suggested for over 25 years. I works very well because the questions are pretty good for learning if the SM is in fact doing a good job. It also makes it easy for new board members to ask the right questions and eventually get everyone settled and comfortable enough to relax. That is when a member might ask non canned question that is more personal to the scout, like asking a question that gets the scout talking about his family or school experiences. And really folks, it's not about the questions being asked, it's how the questions are being asked. The board can take on the image of strange adults judging the scouts performance or they can be a group of adults wanting to get to know the scout better through his scouting experience using the exact same questions. Our board looks very much like stosh describes his ideal board. We use a lot of canned questions because they help the board and scouts get comfortable quickly. Adults who don't have a lot of experience and don't have a few canned questions tend to either not ask any questions, or ask inappropriate questions. Everyone of course wants the BOR experience for the Scout to be positive. But we forget that the adults should want the same experience. Nothing is more rewarding than getting to know a scout better. Our board tries to be warm, encouraging and enthusiastically curious about the scout's experiences in the troop. You know the board is doing well when the adults come out excited from the experience. That is why I like parents being part of the board. We found that our Patrol Leaders and SPL like to introduce the scouts to the board. That wasn't an adult idea, it came from the scouts. Probably an Eagle started that from his EBOR, I don't know. But the scouts sure enjoy it and I like anything that breaks the ice for the BOR candidate. Our troop has two or three BOR leaders that head the BORs. We like that because typically one of them is with troop where ever it is and can call a BOR board together anytime a scout request. The BOR leader has the canned questions and looks for two other members. They coach the board a little before the scout shows up. It works for our troop and the scouts like it. One final note, I have always felt that if the troop truly wants to learn about how well the program is doing, the board should also talk to the parents. Oh I know that is logistically challenging, but many boys aren't going to be completely open to a bunch of strange adults. The parents on the other hand might. And, it is an opportunity for the parents to say what is good about the troop. We have never tried it, but I have always wanted to try it. Barry

Training as well. 21Century, IOLS and most other courses were a result of the female leader policy change. But it had little to do with their gender, bringing females into the program more than doubled the membership without a youth scouting experience and very limited outdoors experience. The training had to change to fit the needs of the demographic membership coming into the program. Remember the tradition of holding Cubs up-side-down to pin their Bobcat badge on their shirt? That was one of the early casualties of the softer gentler scout program. I remember the female leaders on the forum in the mid 90s were passionate about that ceremony going away. G2SS calls it hazing, which was ridiculous. Barry

It may have changed now, but the reason policies with MB counselors grew more strict is because the majority of abuse complaints were from the counselor/scout meetings. Barry

This is the one policy our district does right. We train all MB Counselors in our district before the college. Makes it easy to keep the Counselor list updated. Barry

As was said, the organization has been heavily influenced for a long time by a political activism organization that is pro female and anti male. The policy is not in writing nor discussed much, but is generally understood. And originally it wasn't really a fear of abuse, but more of over emphasis of influential female role modeling for the girls that has gone out of control. I learned this through a friend who was the equivalent of our Council Executive. On the plus side (at least for some of us), the Girl Scouts organization will never agree to merge with the BSA or flex it's activism muscle at the BSA so long as the BSA stays away from adding girl members. Does anybody recall the Girls Scouts piling on the BSA during the gay controversy? Not much. To be fair, my personal experience is the Girl Scouts are accepting of limited male volunteerism at district and council level. They seem to frown on it more at the Troop level. It's a bit ironic that the BSA program lost some of it's outdoor influence by adding female Troop leaders, but the Girl Scouts are missing out on adding outdoor influence by limiting the male involvement. Crazy world. Barry

I am not a big fan of the Girl Scouts organization because they have been used by political activist with an agenda for over 30 years; their program has suffered as a result. But as a scouter, I am glad they are earning a lot of money for the girls. I just about bought out a little girl who come to our door the other day. Her mom got out of her car to meet me just to make sure my large purchase was legit. The sad part is that since we are on a diet, I gave all the cookies away. Note to self: Kids want more Thin Mints. That being said, I agree with Calico that church leaders need to describe better why the church shouldn't follow specific organizations. However, I'm not sure he may agree as much with me. Church leaders need to be more bold and aggressive in describing why organizations don't fit in Gods plan of moral living so their followers learn what makes them different as Christians. The average Christian today is clueless of the moral habits God demands of them. They are part of the cause for the decline of family values and the youth are suffering as a result. Christians today are ignorant to the point of thinking there are no immoral acts or consequences of sin. What good is it to follow a God and ignore why they are followers in the first place. Note to self: need to hide a box of the Caramel delights next year. Barry

I'm with you I'm with you Calico, but I also came to the OPs conclusion that MB Fairs, Colleges or whatever are here to stay. So I decided to use them for teaching scouts and Troop leaders how the MB process is supposed to work as guided by the BSA. My ultimate goal is for units to learn the process well enough to encourage MBs all year, rather than waiting for fairs or summer camp which is becoming more typical of many troops. If the fairs or Colleges encourage the counselors to attend training once a year before the event, then the District has a current list of trained counselors all the troops can use. The list would get updated every year and the training would remind counselors how the process is supposed to work and the benefits for the scout other than just advancement. And the Troop leaders are reminded every year how the counselor search and signup is supposed work, as per the BSA guidelines. That was my plan anyway. Barry

OK, it's just seems you keep describing the BSA program when you brag about stosh scouts. I guess well done is in order. Barry

After reading this again, it occurs to me that you despise the BSA program so much that you have lost much of the knowledge to really understand the program. You obviously don't realize that the scouts are suppose to eventually accept the vision as their own. And you seem to think that adults aren't expected to step back as the scouts mature, but that is part of the BSA program. You think you are being profound, but you are just doing what the BSA ask. As a result, your leadership is likely more adult run than most Scoutmasters in mature BSA boy run troops. You simply don't know of the tools available to you for building a high performance patrol method program. Let me show you what I mean; lets assume that each of us start with two identical groups of boys of identical ages and experiences. I believe my group will be a functioning independent patrol in half the time of your group with only a 3rd adult guidance from me. How will I do that? We've agreed that scouts require some intervention to provide them the knowledge for moving forward. I will simply give them the Scout Handbook, SPL Handbook, PL Handbook and the BSA Field Book, which have enough vision and guidance in the contents to start a functional working patrol with very minimal adult guidance. It's all there, roles and responsibilities of each member, how to cook, what to eat, how to start fires, set up tents, run meetings, how to dress, and on and on. Most of my guidance will likely be requested by the scouts and in the areas that require some on-the-spot adult wisdom for clairty. Most of the request are usually scouts requesting guidance on character challenges. That is usually the time when suggestions like "just take or your boys"or " what does the law say?" helps encourage scouts through their challenges. But for the most part, the patrol method and operation details that are insequential to the Aims are left up to the scouts and their handbooks. Those handbooks make the 100 yard separation easier to acquire. All I'm saying is that adults who use the tools provided by the BSA are likely less adult run. Barry

You're fooling yourself believing that "take care of your scouts" isn't your adult vision, expectation or goal. Barry

All good stuff, stosh, but nothing in your post addresses subject of guiding scouts to change the troop culture. When it was suggested that adult guidance was needed to change the troop culture, you said; ""I have always found that whenever adults step in to "help" it actually slows things down and along with drinking coffee, I find myself spending more time with keeping the adults out of the way than I do having fun with the boys. It shouldn't be that way. I'm thinking the trial and error that is being addressed here is the adult trial and error attempts. I find that the boys figure things out much quicker when it is THEIR trial and error dynamics in place How can he boys figure it out by THEIR trial and error when nobody tells them the error? How will the scouts figure out how to change through THEIR trial and error if nobody steps in to explain the goals or vision? Isn't "take care of your scouts" simply giving a goal or vision for the scouts to work toward? I think MattR has it right and you haven't said anything to make me think differently. When the scouts are driving the program the wrong way, someone has to step in for a course correction. The correction can be a simple as "take care of your scouts". But I believe it is the responsibilities of the adults to step in and encourage scout growth. That is really what the program is all about. Barry

It's been a while since I bought new shorts, but find a nearby Army/Navy Surplus store and compare their shorts with the BSA shorts. They used to be almost identical in color and appearance. Barry