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  1. Ugh. Rather than reply to a particular post I’ll just put in on the thread. I’m an amateur at best when it comes to forums. first I’ll state again how I am much impressed with the level of maturity from the survivors responses here. Seeings how most of us are stunted in many ways and have had to fight to learn How to communicate on this topic. And survivors we are. There is no need to victim blame / shame either. We have done that to our selves for all the years that led up to this. Ohh… the things we have gone through on this road that was thrust upon us. From 15
    7 points
  2. There's a lot here, but most every single point you got is wrong. The COR most certainly can fire anyone and everyone. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, is there at the pleasure and on the signature of the COR. The COR says you are gone, you are gone. The only person "above" the COR is the Institutional Head, which this person apparently is as well (see item #6) Not only is having the Key-3 from the same chartered organization permitted, it is actively encouraged in order for the unit-CO relationship to be strong. It is true no one may charter in two different positions (e.g. AS
    6 points
  3. The blind eye was turned not because it would tarnish good scouters instead it was turned because they didn’t want to tarnish the reputation of the national organization Boy Scouts of America. The stink is on all those who facilitated the carrying out of that policy.
    5 points
  4. No, if they followed precedent they would have split cit world into world and universe.
    5 points
  5. Sure. There's the Bankruptcy Code, the law enacted by Congress that deals with, well, bankruptcy. That's found U.S. Code Title 11 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/11 There you'll find familiar names CHAPTER 7—LIQUIDATION (§§ 701 – 784) and CHAPTER 11—REORGANIZATION (§§ 1101 – 1195). So far, so good. Rules of practice and procedure of federal courts were until the Rule Enabling Act of 1934 also entirely in the hands of Congress. Since 1934 there's a shared arrangement: the courts (through the federal Judicial Conference) can adopt rules of practice and procedure, but Cong
    4 points
  6. I would suggest that you learn the rules before you take over as scoutmaster. Somebody is giving you wrong information. At the very least, you should seriously avoid criticizing other scouters until you get your facts straight.
    4 points
  7. For the most part, this subject was hushed and Not discussed, and authorities also chose to not believe or make excuses because so and so was a good guy, as most knew. Parents often chose to not press the issue due to the embarrassment and community tendency to call it he said, he said or it is a kid making things up. It was not right, but that was the world most of us live in. Now, when it did actually get beyond the disbelief and was taken seriously, the laws were not yet particularly strong, and reinforced to some extent the idea of not believing. Again, unless their was absolute proof,
    3 points
  8. I’ve come to “know,” personally and anonymously, a good number of victims over the last fifteen months. For what it’s worth, not a single fact pattern of the abuse fits this hypothetical. Not even close. My bet is these are truly outliers, but what do I know? Oh. That’s right. Not what, but who. Victims of BSA child sexual abuse.
    3 points
  9. Moderator Note: I'm being admittedly over-bearing on the issue because of how fast it tends to spiral out of control, but I have deleted a few more comments and posts referencing the legal profession in general. It was a newer member, so I'm not issuing any reprimands, but I wanted to remind people that the rule is still in effect, even if I'm not as quick to see the posts over the weekend. For those of you who have been around for a while, I'd like to encourage you to simply flag posts that stray into dangerous waters rather than replying to them. Reporting them doesn't automatica
    3 points
  10. As a parent, I’d want the abuser to suffer in ways more creative than any I could even come up with. I’m not sure that would be of any help to a child. Or a grown man who was abused as a child. It appears there’s not much that does help - no undoing what was done. And yes, I’d want the organization that allowed it to pay. Still, I want to see scouting continue because I see my older son, who had some pretty major issues with anxiety, self-doubt, and suicidal thoughts as a 10-11 year old, and who has a very mild learning disability, become stronger and more confident through the opportu
    3 points
  11. Yeah, I got a fan. My speculation here is along the lines of what is the the nature of that "runoff" agreement that the PA Commissioner agreed to and wants no one else to see. If it is in anyway capped, that could means one of two things: 1) The cap's unenforceable garbage. Sure, there may be (and let me say again may be) a cap on Century's runoff as part of the transfer to Chubb ("We'll buy you, but only if the debt's $1 billion (an illustrative number I am pulling out of thin air)" or something like that) and that was enough to get past the PA Commissioner's smell test, but it is g
    3 points
  12. Me thinks that Cynical may have a follower ...
    3 points
  13. MB program screams for change. Personally, I would love seeing the Citz MBs merged into Civics. Now the big challenge is keeping the politics out of the changes. Anything hinting at picking a side or leaning one direction or another will blow up. 100% guarantee it.
    3 points
  14. They combined all of the Cit MB's and the DEI MB into one. Apparently this is the first of many changes in the entire MB program. had you going there for a bit. Admit it.
    3 points
  15. I have always electected to wear the uniform in accordance with BSA rules, to the extent that they are coherent. Even the rule that official BSA "hat pins" may not be worn on the official BSA hat or cap. In training, I have advocated to Scouts and adults that they set a good example by following the rules. I do not "call out" adults who ignore the uniforming rules because they may simply be unaware of the rules and because we have been increasingly short of adult resources over my fifty-three years in the program. I have "solved" the absurd Eagle Mentor Pin problem by buying,
    3 points
  16. African or European?
    3 points
  17. As valuable and appreciated as the letters depicting victims personal abuse experiences are, they’re heavily redacted. Yes, they were directed to the judge and she read some, but that was not the only purpose or intent. Regardless, the flooding of the court at the behest of the law firms seemed odd to me, as well. As lead plaintiff in a class action suit, my attorneys certainly never directed or allowed me to “speak” directly to the court, other than in mediation sessions even though I technically spoke for the class. As someone who’s worked in politics for a while, as I step back and consider
    2 points
  18. Agreed. I’m certainly not forming a committee to study the alternatives for the word grooming in this contex. I was partly being “smart” picking a language nit. I was also speaking to the issue of people not knowing the clinical definition and reality of sexual abuse grooming. We’re in a thread created because I was going on about grooming and the term was deemed “psycho-babble.” Maybe some need to call it something else to come along and get it. Dunno. Absolutely 100% there are better things do. I hope you believe it takes no selling to get me on board with the your last statement.
    2 points
  19. While I can appreciate the desire for a term better than grooming and understand the difficulty since the term has multiple meanings, I do not think predation while it captures the insidious nature it does not capture the trust element distinction. Grooming is predatory but what makes is distinctly different than just hunting, the purpose is for the abuser to gain the trust of its intened victim so as to exploit it. I am not sure a better word exists, nor do I think we should spend too much energy of finding one. Our energy should be spent on finding ways to eliminate the exploitation of child
    2 points
  20. Thank you very much for your even-handed and heartfelt post. For me, and many of us I think, the question of “What if it was your child?” seems too often deflected and not answered honestly. It may appear (or feel) like we are asking it as a weapon of debate, not a deep and sincere entreaty to another human being. Personally, I think yours is the answer most people would have to give. I’m not advocating or condoning violence or any such, I just mean if you don’t have a visceral, protective reaction when confronted with the prospect of the sexual abuse victim being your child or a child you kno
    2 points
  21. For what feels like the millionth time: the point isn't that BSA knew after the fact or that BSA did or did not report as to this particular Scoutmaster. The point is and I repeat myself but it is necessary. The reason BSA is being sued (and has lost numerous times in state courts prior to 2020) is that yes, the pedophile did it, but BSA was negligent in allowing it to happen. In short, and I mean very, very short: 1) Boy Scouts of America (BSA National, the Congressionally Chartered entity) created the Boy Scouts (or Cub Scouts, or whatever) program and chartered local councils
    2 points
  22. I am appalled at the tenor of this post. It smacks of victim blaming “if the victim reported anything” if we haven’t learned anything we should know the victims/survivors as a whole told no one. “Wider context of the time”? How is that really relevant in the context of what took place? My personal story which I have told is one which is so similar to so many that I have read. The pattern of abuse reporting was set and used for over 50 years by the BSA.
    2 points
  23. Thank you for posting this link. My first reaction is, finally, finally, finally. This article was too long in the coming. As to “fair,” hm. Let me see. While most know my BSA future split personality, when you read something like this, the only answer can be: absolutely everything humanly possible. How can you not? Seriously. I know I have minimized my abuse every day of my life, including this one. My therapist reminds me that I am a ferocious survivor and many, many people would be long dead or in prison. (Survivors, please tell yourself that RIGHT NOW!) That “everything possible”woul
    2 points
  24. Good luck. What everyone is basically saying is grooming is a process of Living the Scout Law. Are we going to turn Friendly, Courteous, and Kind into suspicious behavior now? it would be easier to keep the adults 100 yards away from the Patrols. Barry
    2 points
  25. On the other hand, vote with your feet. You, and more importantly, your child, have no obligation to remain in a situation that is not to your liking. FIND another CO, and let folks know you are forming a new unit. They can vote with their feet also and join you. Those that do are likely to be like-minded with you. Your disadvantage is that the new unit will be starting from scratch, financially, and unit equipment-wise. But not insurmountable. OR. MOVE to another unit, and report back to your acquaintances that you are happy there. They may then vote with their fee
    2 points
  26. @SantaCruzScouting, #1 Welcome to the forums. #2 As a former professional, I can tell you that everything that folks have said on this thread is 100% correct. What you are trying to do is not possible. The Charter Organization owns the unit, and the Charter Organization Rep approves or disapproves all those registered in a unit. The only person who can overrule a COR is the Institutional Head, and my understanding is that the IH is the same person as the COR in your situation. And rarely will IHs overrule their CORs. In almost 40 years in Scouting, I know of only 1 instance where a
    2 points
  27. Except everything in that bylaw package is a direct violation of BSA policy. BSA really can’t be any clearer on this: the troop does not “elect” the committee. The parents of the troop don't "elect" the committee. The COR selects them. Now, will the committee’s recommendation carry a lot of weight with the COR? I would hope. But BSA is absolutely clear: every adult leader serves upon written approval (signature) of the COR and that approval can be revoked at will. Boy Scouts of America Rules and Regulations (September 2020) https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Rul
    2 points
  28. I think Eagle1970s advice was good. What you do on your own time is one thing but if you're in scouts we can't have cameras in the bathrooms. This is kind of a problem with BSA's packaged YPT. By the time it comes out, it's out of date. It needs to be a real time.
    2 points
  29. In my neck of the woods it's not the knots you need to hide so much as your pulse.
    2 points
  30. Well, actually, a Cub Pack MAY be purely boy, or purely girl. Both are allowed, but if they mix, the dens still have to be gender-separate. The CO has the freedom to decide whether a pack is all-boy, all-girl, or mixed.
    2 points
  31. Ditto from my fellows... And. Is this to be a CUB PACK or a SCOUTSBSA TROOP? My friend, for you to be conversant in "Scoutese", it would behoove you to read up. Scoutmasters are leaders of ScoutBSA Troops, Cubmaster is the leader of a Cub Pack. And if the BSA Council insists on following BSA rules, a Cub Pack may NOT be purely girl. The Dens within the Pack are , by policy, gender separated, but the PACK is not. Well, I suppose if the CO defines ALL the Dens as female... Have they turned away any boys, do you know? ScoutsBSA Troops are in toto gender separate.
    2 points
  32. I think we are in agreement that "done and gone so let's move on" is the wrong way to deal with this issue, and all others like it. My point was simply that in this specific case, part 2 of the process you described has worked so far, in that he was caught, arrested, charged, and with the court setting a $500,00 cash only bail, will be incarcerated for a deservedly long, long, long time. Now comes the 'how did this happen, and were there any warning signs that were not heeded / were there any YPT policies that were ignored by either his troop, local council, or the camp'; and if so, how do w
    2 points
  33. Maybe it has a lot to do with the actual scouting that is the norm, not the deviant outliers. Scouts do public patriotic ceremonies in many places; Scouts contribute thousands of hours of community service outside of the Eagle projects; Scouts are often called upon by the wider community for assistance in special events; Scouts and Scouting in 99+% of community visibility is a positive and worthwhile example. Maybe there are more people that understand the the anomalous hyper scandal is NOT the norm for the larger group, and understand that it is far more beneficial to their communities than
    2 points
  34. It was briefly brought up in the Q & A at a Cub recruiting night the first year we enrolled girls in the Cub Scout program. The most honest answer we could give was that we take the safety and well being of every Scout, male or female, very seriously. We always do everything in our power to ensure that nothing like this will happen, but the best way for that parent to help us do that would be to register and participate along with his daughter. As to this particular incident, I saw the news reports several days ago. While I was disheartened to see it happened, I was pleased to see
    2 points
  35. What is your name? What is your quest? What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
    2 points
  36. Perhaps the difference is that I simply don't approach Cub or their parents with the assumption that they are going to create problems. I always assume that in their hearts, people want to do the right thing - and I am rarely disappointed. I have found this to be true both as a Scout leader and as an educator. I never have to "go to war" with them, because I always treat them like beloved allies - and funny enough, that approach seems to make them feel like beloved allies. I have developed deep and meaningful relationships with not only my Scouts, but also their parents and siblings - because
    2 points
  37. It is a societal problem. Trying to deflect and exonerate yourself by pointing that out, however, isn't at all useful. BSA is the organization that has been identified in lawsuits as having a significant issue. BSA has to do and be better. Simply doing a better job of living up to its own advertised and aggressively promoted oaths and laws would be a start. BSA has access to decades of its own internal data that it could be using to produce incident reports that could inform leaders when, why, where, and how incidents of CSA are occurring. There is no transparency however. And regardless of wh
    2 points
  38. It's not lack of scouting experience that is the problem it is lack of common sense and leadership ability. Plenty of great scouters have been born in the camp fire of just jumping in feet first when no one else would. I don't know why but scouting seems to attract a lot of people with big egos, big mouths, big opinions and little common sense. It's the other ones who make putting up with those kind worth it.
    2 points
  39. I don't think that a facilities use agreement is likely to fully protect the former CO, now landlord. The former CO's should insist on the Council indemnifying the former CO from all losses and attorney's fees, and providing proof of insurance coverage. Standard stuff in the legal world. In the past, this was of little concern as the CO's did not know of the silent avalanche of claims building and roaring down upon them. In its own way the silence of BSA toward the CO's is financial abuse. The CO's wracking up year after year of sponsorship (liability exposure) blissfully ignorant
    2 points
  40. Options…. 1) Some of these firms lost clients to Kosnoff 2) Kosnoff lost some of clients to these firms 3) Kosnoff is misrepresenting how many clients he has 4) These firms are misrepresenting how many clients they have How can they even vote for a plan if they don’t know which law firm represents each client (and I expect some are not represented). What an absolute mess.
    2 points
  41. It's called the "Activity Consent Form", I can't personally say how long it's been around, but at least since 2014 as that's when an article about it was written on the Scoutingmagazine blog. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/19-673.pdf
    2 points
  42. While surely most reading this thread would agree that any abuse is too much abuse, we still cannot completely stop it, as it is and always has been a negative side of some human personalities. As noted above, and many times in this tragedy, perfection in defending is not possible. Let's perhaps have some of the better stat finders do some serious comparisons to the National Child Protective Services in this regard. Even a cursory Google search will turn up some truly scary stats. But, because it is part of the Government, it is not held to the same rabid public shame and calls for rec
    2 points
  43. I hear you but we've been saying that scouting is so much better at YP than the public swimming pools. locker rooms, etc. What we need to be saying is that we can't protect your kids any better here than anywhere else. Our YP is good but your kids could still be victimized. BSA is at this moment trying to market safety which is something we can't provide. Where is the waiver, like the ones you sign at the climbing wall or the tubing outfitter or wherever, that says scouting is an inherently risky activity when it comes to youth protection and you as the parent accept those risks? And apa
    2 points
  44. If the correct thing is to shut down, then public swimming pools and youth locker rooms are in question too. Shopping center fitting rooms and public bathrooms should close too. Evil exists. It's how we react to it that is important. It went to police. Charges pending. Not hidden, etc. I'm just not sure creating more fear is right either.
    2 points
  45. If indeed bankruptcy is just business, this one is a corrupt enterprise. Where I was ready to step back and take aim at the Settlement Trustee process and hunkered insurance companies when this “deal” was announced, I’m back to feeling disgusted. Regardless the state of the RSA and whether it revives after the judge’s jolt today, this thing is a disgrace. I realize it’s highly complex. I realize there are a strange mix of layers and players. I realize it’s emotional and I chief among all. I also realize the fees keep getting paid like clockwork, save for an objection from the insurers. I have
    2 points
  46. When made adventure and patrol method the two highest priorities of the program. We started with 15 scouts and 10 years later our troop of around 100 scouts was producing an Eagle every 2.5 months. The average age of the scouts going through their EBOR was 16.5 years old. Like your troop, advancement was not a high priority. But, when the scouts enjoy a fun program in the outdoors, advancement activities are a natural by-product of a healthy patrol method program. Most of the Scouts didn't even realize they were close to Eagle when they started to look at it seriously. When puberty
    2 points
  47. What I would really like to know is how he was able to get into this position. As Texan asked, was he a registered leader? Had he been vetted or checked in anyway? Completed the YP training, etc. I trust that the legal system will take care of this guy, and I hope that National would put every effort to be aggressive in ensuring that the maximum penalties are pursued - if only to show that they are serious about youth protection. But I also really want to know where the system failed. The first line of failure here has to be how he was able to get into this position to participate i
    1 point
  48. And the problem of a "Parents of" organization is that you are potentially liable even if you are NOT on the campout where an alleged incident occurs. As a principal in the sponsoring organization, not incorporated or having some other liability shield aspect, even 1,000 miles away on a business trip, you are potentially liable, and a Defendant. Lawyers "leave no stone unturned." Everyone gets named as a Defendant-"Let the Judge sort it out."
    1 point
  49. Just returned from Summer Camp. 33 of 38 Scouts attended. (86.8%!!!) Would have been 34, but one pulled out last minute due to a broken foot. ($465 per head with $50 early bird discount...some came in later at $515. Plus a $40 bus ride to/from camp...so minimum $505 per camper.) Last month, we offered a 35-mile hike over 5 days/4 nights on the Appalachian Trail. We used this to conduct a Leave No Trace Trainer Course. Only five Scouts took the opportunity. ($110 per head.) We also do a Troop high adventure each summer. In two weeks, we leave for a 50-mile canoe trek (no portag
    1 point
  50. I've been involved in Boy Scouts/ Scouts BSA since 2005. I've never heard the second verse of Scout Vespers... I didn't even know it had a second verse. I learned something today.
    1 point
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