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  1. My own experience is that scout growth is dramatically slower without older scouts modeling the skills the new scouts need to learn. Troop Guides are OK, but they have to teach most of the skills in more of a classroom setting, while new scouts in a mixed age patrol just have to watch the skills being used in normal activities. The scouts in new scouts patrols tend to get bored because they don't stay busy enough when the troop guide isn't around. There is no resource of experience other than the troop guide. Then usually means the adults have to fill in to make sure the new scouts have a cont
    4 points
  2. Wow, that's quite a leap from what was really stated. Girls are wired differently than boys and and difference makes growth more challenging for boys when they are mixed with girls in a patrol method environment. The question isn't whether boys and girls can mix in scouting activities, of course they can. The question is whether benefit of girls and boys scouting together is worth the less growth for the boys. Barry
    4 points
  3. I thought this might be interesting discussion material. Scoutmaster Fred Young recruited Jakayla Armstrong to their church’s troop in 2019. At the time, he had to register Armstrong as a Lone Scout, since she was the only girl in the troop. He had faith that Armstrong could handle scouting with 10 other boys, he said, but he was wary at first. “Some boys didn’t want girls in the Boy Scouts,” he said. “And you have to be prepared for that.” Young said a handful of girls have joined other troops in the area, but none are African American – and his troop is the only all-Black troo
    4 points
  4. Then BSA will go Chapter 7. They brought this up multiple times. They do not have the liquidity to continue in bankruptcy after this summer ... and a completely rejected plan would likely take 6 months to a year to get through the process (plan, voting, confirmation hearing, approval). If national goes CH7, then expect many local councils to be immediately sued and a large number to file for their own bankruptcies. LDS and some COs will also get sued. I'm not sure if the BSA can survive, but it will be ugly for much longer. Now, I think a more likely outcome is that the judge either
    4 points
  5. Go ahead and start another subject. I enjoy these discussions and can talk hours about it in person. The whole idea of Patrol Method is to put scouts in situations where they have to make difficult decisions from the interactions with patrol mates. I learned that the preparing meals is the most intense patrol activity that exposes the scouts true character. And usually forces them to learn better habits of interacting with other people. We didn't always go to a camp where the patrol prepared the meals, but we made sure the patrols were independent so they would have to rely on each oth
    4 points
  6. BSA Seeking $16+ Million from GSUSA regarding dismissed Trademark Suit Below is introductory text of a BSA Motion to recover $16+ Million of attorneys fees and costs incurred by the BSA during the recently-dismissed trademark suit filed by the GSUSA against the BSA. The link to the full motion document, which provides granular information of what organizational moves GSUA was making proximate to the Scouts BSA announcement, is pasted below. It is worth the read. “Preliminary Statement By any measure, this trademark case is “exceptional” under the fee award provision of the Lan
    3 points
  7. I may be wrong, but I think that the majority of the 83% have been more concerned with the financial aspect of the reorganization and BSA did not enter bankruptcy to get input into Youth Protection. Any youth protection improvements are just a byproduct (though needed) to the BSA program. I am quite sure that the total expenditure out of the over $100 million only a couple percentage went towards crafting new policies.
    3 points
  8. The problem is that ,many adults are stuck on the imaginary age 14 restriction. Our only restriction was physical fitness maturity to make sure the scouts could physically do the adventure task safely. Except for Philmont. Could not get past that restriction. But, we usually did at least two or our own high adventure pack packing treks anyways. So, everyone that wanted to go backpacking could go. That doesn't include our backpacking weekend campout. Barry
    3 points
  9. A few reasons for Venture crew/patrols demise. 1. Not really popular outside of LDS units, and then it was those units that did not focus on sports. When the old Leadership Corps was turned into Venture Crews in 1989 (although some units like mine continued using Leadership Corps until we ran out of patches circa 1995), it did not have a huge following. I was hired in 1996 to create a high adventure program based upon the activity pins that were associated with the program, we had 0 interest, and I ended up doing COPE instead of because NO ONE signed up for it. 2. Varsity Teams and
    3 points
  10. Great question! In reality, they weren't. That is, you can organize your Troop any way you wish, and if you want to have an older group called the Venture Patrol, then go for it. Here's a website with some more details... http://www.seniorscoutinghistory.org/seniorscoutsite/venture.html Programmatically, who knows why the BSA moved away from this? The old heads here (like me) remember the Leadership Corps, which was essentially the same thing. http://www.seniorscoutinghistory.org/seniorscoutsite/leadershipcorps.html The REALLY old heads will remember Rovers, Emergency Servic
    3 points
  11. I find some of the above postings about girls in Scouts BSA to be rather speculative and uninformed. As founding Scoutmaster of a now-50+ member Scouts BSA Troop for Girls, my experience and direct observation is that our girls are attracted to the program for the identical reasons as boys are. My experience is also that our Scouts successfully organize and lead our troop in ways that are different – playing to the things girls emphasize and strengths they have at the Scouts BSA ages. Our operation works supremely well as a single-gender organization. for reasons I do not need to fully unde
    3 points
  12. Most definitely. I would add that the TG gets overwhelmed working with all of the new Scouts simultaneously. In a Traditional Patrol, older Scouts buddy up with the younger ones and work with them. Again concur. When I was a TG, if I was not actively working with someone, they were clueless as to what to do, even if I gave them specific instructions. And I was overwhelmed. In my case, adults did not get involved because we were an old fashioned Scout-led troop, unless it was disciplinary. After a year of trying, and also losing some scouts, we went back to Traditional Patrols. HOW
    2 points
  13. I would NEVER willingly put "troop" monies into an account our local council had access to. I have no problem at all imagining a SE deciding "un-designated bank funds at the end of the fiscal year get shifted to the Council general fund". If I was forced into a situation where a Council chartered troop was my only option, I'd probably establish a new charity with the sole function of acting as our "banker". We would "volunteer" for a fundraiser and the "Troopfund X" organization would simply hold our funds until needed and then they would cut a check for whatever needed paying. Kind of
    2 points
  14. @Cburkhardt the one striking omission: older youth -- especially 18-20 year olds -- do not need a pair 21+ year old adults of the appropriate sex to meet and plan adventures. They would rather risk (or perhaps are ignorant of the risks of) the potential abuse inherent in meeting on their own in the absence of adults (or in the presence of just one adult of the opposite sex), and bring in, as needed, the occasional adult based on his/her qualifications to supervise their activities of interest. IMHO, this, above all other things, undercuts BSA's ability to fashion venturing into the umbrel
    2 points
  15. The leaders are only running the program National is pushing Its one thing when a Scout advances quickly using thier own ambition, but pushing for 1st class in a year, and Eagle by 16 waters down the brand. The fact that there's are competing interests, and not enough "bandwidth", just means a Scout has to make tough decisions about what they think is important. Hence, why some Scoutd will earn Eagle and other won't. If all Scouts earned Eagle, then its just another particpation trophy.
    2 points
  16. Fixed that for you. Let's face it, National is the one setting the tone on this. National is producing training material that promotes advancement above all things, and positions of responsibility is part of that.
    2 points
  17. The key confusion is always talking about a "unit shoot". That's for convenience. Structurally, it's a district / council shoot. (training, staff, etc). ... It's only advertised to that unit and thus we call it a unit shoot.
    2 points
  18. I never said this ... and I don't think anyone has. If you are going to debate a topic, please do not utilize a strawman argument. I personally support having girls in BSA. My daughter was in Cub Scouts and as of now plans to join Scouts BSA. I have worked with girls in BSA and have found most of them to fit well into the program. My daughter is also a girl scout and has enjoyed that program (and GSUSA has been very adamant about keeping their program single gender). That said, I think @Eagledad has valid points and there is neuroscience that indicates male and female brains a
    2 points
  19. There goes one week of cookie profit. And into the pot for survivors I would think.
    2 points
  20. I haven't been watching this thread (was pretty active this weekend in and out of scouts). However, I do think neuroscience does clearly indicate brains are different between boys and girls ... even at birth ... and they definitely develop differently. Is that due to epigenetics, genes or hormones ... the answer is likely yes. Regardless, we do know there are differences in brains between genders. Now, it doesn't mean that every female or every male fit a single gender specific behavior. I think the science indicates that differences in behaviors in a single gender exceed the differences
    2 points
  21. A few years back we were running BB range training for our Daycamp staffers. Two police officers were taking the training. They said they got some good natured ribbing when the other officers heard they were going to be 'certified' in BB's. Then, when we went to the range and they got the rifles one said to the other, "hey, these have better sights than our guns." At any rate, if the council has a policy that a unit with properly trained volunteers and a safe range can do a unit shoot, go for it... Our council has a policy where the camp bb and archery range and equipment can be used. Re
    2 points
  22. I'm now in the Longhouse Council in CNY. I expect that this council has had a far more significant membership downturn than most having dropped over 90% of its membership since 2000. Most of that happened prior to covid. While I dearly hope that the council will turn things around the staffing is so reduced and we have dropped so many units that it will almost take a miracle. In the meantime we do have a wonderful 'William Hillcourt Museum at Camp Woodland in Constantia, NY and I am now on the committee. If any of you folk are within a reasonable distance you are welcome to come and visit. The
    2 points
  23. If you substituted race, skin color, or any religious or ethnic category for gender in this comment, it would be off the charts offensive. I don't know why the moderators continually give a hall pass to comments like these. They have no place in scouting. It's one thing to recognize adolescent behavior like showing off; it's another thing entirely when you start attempting to make broad assessments that stereotype skills and character traits in discriminatory ways.
    2 points
  24. It’s not about functioning together, it’s about maximum growth opportunity . Scouting is not about enduring each other to eventually get along. As you said, boys and girls are mixed to all the time. The scouting program puts the youth in situations where they makes decisions that expose their character. Boys aren’t intimidated by the girls natural instinct of management and details, they welcome it. But many adults confuse the boys stepping back as a result being intimidated. It is instead the logical action of giving space for letting the girls do what they do best, and the boys find bor
    2 points
  25. We did a similar camp style during Covid, and honestly, I think it was the best summer camp we attended. The Troop & patrols bonded. Yes ... many more partials and less complete merit badges, but I think it was a better style and likely closer to aligning to the methods of scouting than most summer camps. We patrol cook which helps provide an experience outside merit badges which is challenging and fun. The Troops/scouts I am most surprised by and the ones that hang out at the trading post with cell phones plugged in just watching videos (or playing games). It is not many sc
    2 points
  26. I believe my council runs the same way, however, with me never experiencing Scouting until I was an adult volunteer, I thought this was the way things were supposed to be. The way you describe it sounds much more exciting and fulfilling.
    2 points
  27. Maybe what we did is wrong, I don't really know... My kid is signed up for Astronomy and Fishing. He is also going to take the Second Class uhhh class and First Class class. He is working through the requirements with the Troop. but I think, based on his personality, he will benefit from experiencing and learning the information from someone else. He needs things 2, sometime 3 times before it sinks in. Also going to take instructional swim. Then I think there is like 4 hours of whatever till lights out.
    2 points
  28. As suggested by @InquisitiveScouter and @Eagledad, I created a new topic
    2 points
  29. As long as the instructors and counselors mentor Scouts to meet the requirements as stated, then sure. This should be a different topic, though... Summer camp is supposed to be a week in the woods "under canvas", with all that entails... “A week of camp life is worth six months of theoretical teaching in the meeting room.” BP It should focus on "...making camp, putting up a shelter, cooking over a fire, exploring our surroundings without getting lost, learning about the natural world and how to use what it provides, constructing things with pieces of tree and rope, tracking
    2 points
  30. @RememberSchiff, sorry, but this does not meet the country-club merit-badge-mill motif we are going for. Gotta shave off as much Troop & Patrol work as possible to maximize the number of merit badge classes a Scout can attend and be awarded!!! (I did not say earn) C'mon, man! Get with the revenue program!
    2 points
  31. My preference, Boy Scout camps provide secure pantry and refrigerator space and loaner cookware for attending units . Units/patrols bring their own food according to their needs. The only food ordered by a camp would be for their provisional camp. Mess halls for Cubs. My $0.02,
    2 points
  32. As to the photo I posted above, are you able to explain what it takes to become a certified time logger and fee application preparer? Mama "needs" a new pair-o-shoes. I'll cut down the hourly from $298.237519 to an even $250.
    2 points
  33. I was extremely dismayed to discover that BSA had created a DEI group, and have considered pulling my son out of Scouting because of it. Especially when they started pushing the new Eagle-required merit badge. DEI at face value sounds great. Who could be against diversity, equity, and inclusion? The co-opting of these terms has been ingenious. I believe DEI is sinister. Diversity inevitably starts having metrics. Metrics that presuppose some kind of quotas that should be met. This invariably results in punitive measures taken against whoever is not in the favored class. It's t
    2 points
  34. My pack always operated with the requirement that no child could attend any function without some adult taking personal responsibility for the scout. It didn't have to be that child's parent after Tigers, but there had to be someone. You couldn't just drop your kids at the door and drive away.
    2 points
  35. This isn't a fringe view, you just aren't reading what he wrote in context. He's not saying women are "Neurotic" he's talking about the "Big Five Dimensions of Personality". Neuroticism is a trait, not a mental illness or criticism. Another phrase for Neuroticism is "Emotional Stability". But everyone should alsways keep in mind that not all the moderators read everything every day. If anyone thinks a post is contrary to the forum rules, they should "Report" the post rather than assuming a moderator will be along soon and notice it.
    1 point
  36. I would push it further and say it is mostly mental/psychological (rather than "as much") We have some 12 year olds that do just fine. We have some 14 year olds that still have significant challenges with anxiety and homesickness. I have already excluded two 14 year olds from our upcoming trek that have not demonstrated the level of maturity I want. (Yes, I said "I want", because I will be responsible for them in the wilderness. )
    1 point
  37. Few lawyers would “bank on” winning a fee petition. That said, I like the BSA’s chances in this case. I read the Complaint when it was first filed, the Dismissal Order and Fee Petition and a few things stick out. There was an overall lack of evidence of consumer confusion. Only a few copies of mixed-up local church bulletins or unit-produced fliers and some conclusory allegations that misuse of the GSUSA trademark had been encouraged. In the dismissal order the judge found that after many GSUSA witnesses, no single instance of confusion or brand tarnishment was proven. Not good. Th
    1 point
  38. The only description and directives are as noted below. BSA CSA survivor members are apparently TBD. Per the SWG member's testimony, one of their members is a woman. 2) On or as soon as practicable following the Effective Date, form a Youth Protection Committee (“YPC”): The BSA shall form a committee including members from the BSA, Local Councils, Chartered Organizations, and nominees of the Tort Claimants’ Committee, and nominees of the Survivors Working Group. Assuming there are a sufficient numbers willing to serve on the YPC, members nominated by the Tort Claimants’ Committee and
    1 point
  39. Well, I just don't know. It is a puzzle. National has a Federal Charter, and only a couple of organizations are chartered Federally. I think that means that it need not incorporate in some state and then qualify to do business in the other 49 states annually. I don't know if it is a Federally chartered not-for-profit, but I suspect so.. And I also don't know if there is a Federal Not-For-Profit statute which regulates its operations. States have not-for-profit corporation statutes. Normally, when the Federal Government enacts a law within its Constitutional authority, it
    1 point
  40. I just found out that our pack doesn't meet in the summer. I'm not sure why. Seems like a great way to lose members. I seem to remember Scouting being a year-round activity. We've overcome so much sluggishness to start building the pack, and then we're going to waste it?
    1 point
  41. There is some benefit in single gender and some in mixed. For me, I would like to let troops choose if they want to be single gender or mixed gender. Some parents do want a single gender experience for their kids. Others don't care or want an integrated experience. IMHO, let troops choose their personality.
    1 point
  42. The Lone Scout issue is interesting to me. I know that I have read on this forum, as well as a couple of other threads on Scouting about girls joining as Lone Scouts due to not having enough girls for a troop. So I know that it is allowed, or so it appears. We have struggled to start a girl unit; but we got the minimum briefly, but soon lost one, then another. I had suggested the Lone Scout direction anyway, but the local Executive says we do not meet criteria. Of course, what he really means is that he want another number for a unit, evenif he then approves three when we started it, now
    1 point
  43. June 4 and 5, 2022: Gates open at 8:30 a.m. Show scheduled to start at 12 p.m. Show completed by approximately 4:15 p.m. * Tentative Schedule * Skydive Wissota Grant Nielsen Airshows Kent Pietsch Airshows - Jelly Belly Comedy Act Aftershock Jet Fire Truck Commemorative Air Force B-25 Jerry Conley - D.H. 115 'Vampire' Airshows Precision Exotics Kent Pietsch Airshows - Jelly Belly Comedy Act F-16 Viper Demo Team Air Combat Command Heritage Flight - P-51 Mustang Craig Gifford Power & Precision Airshows Acemaker Airshows Aftershock Jet Fire Truc
    1 point
  44. @ThenNow Sorry, in my screwy mind, it was clear where the quote lay but no one else would be able to read my mind, especially from a distance! 😂 I should have provided the reference. This excerpt is from a webpage accessed first going to Home - Philmont Scout Ranch High Adventure- Cimarron NM (philmontscoutranch.org) and clicking in the red box near the top of the page to go to https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/cooks-peak-fire-update wherein the quote lies.
    1 point
  45. I remember a scout who spent TWO weeks at the rifle range, and archery range. Those were the only two mBs he earned. Said it was the best summer camp he had. Another scout spent a week fishing, and he already had the fishing mB!
    1 point
  46. Silicon Valley Monterey Bay Council (CA): Camp Pico Blanco in Big Sur Council is asking $1.8 million and a set of conditions for the sale of Camp Pico Blanco, and $1.6 million for an adjacent 350 acres of undeveloped wilderness area. Eric Tarbox, deputy scout executive, says a volunteer group will grade each bid against the same criteria, which includes: plans for the land; whether the new owner will allow future access to scout programming (the Esselen Tribe has included this in its proposal); and how much money the bidder is willing to spend for the land. Tarbox says the vision fo
    1 point
  47. Late to this post. In my district, cub scouts are done by over half. Virtualized cub scouting did not work. Packs that continued in person activities as much as possible during the COVID fear campaign are the ones that are healthy today. Packs that did not, lost a bunch of cub scouts. Another factor driving scouts out of the program is the push towards more classroom type activities instead of more outdoor activities. Recruitment has been significantly down. It has to be all the advertisements looking for victims of sexual abuse, because of the BSA. My chartering organization will no lon
    1 point
  48. Okay, I HAVE to share this story now. One of the new parents that came on the last camping trip brought two suitcases, two full-size pillows, and a massage table. I am not even kidding, swear on my life. She set it up in the middle of camp and lay there while everyone else was fixing lunch.
    1 point
  49. Glad my council got out of the popcorn business , costly bad product with poor quality control We now sell Moon pies for us a local American made product.
    1 point
  50. Do I trust the leadership of the local units? Absolutely. Their successors? Maybe. Their successors? The ways BSA has been trending, probably not. Hence the need for legal language to honor the intent of the donation. Do you trust Irving? I'd donate my mother-in-law to national, but nothing more.
    1 point
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