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  • #31
    What do you expect when you put morality up to a vote...

    Comment


    • #32
      I am a show me kinda guy.....


      So I would like to see a link or source for the statistic of 70% of councils favor it.

      Comment


      • FScouter
        FScouter commented
        Editing a comment
        It's true... I saw it on facebook.

      • FScouter
        FScouter commented
        Editing a comment
        It's true... I saw it on facebook.

      • Basementdweller
        Basementdweller commented
        Editing a comment
        I heard somewhere if you keep repeating it to yourself you will believe it and it will become true.

    • #33
      I, for one am relieved. You all can bicker all you want. Now I can turn my focus back on to working with my new scouts and getting them assimilated into the Troop. (We are doubling in size in two weeks!) All parents, including my new young scout's two moms, will get engaged and involved. We (the boys) will plan our campouts and get ready for summer camp.

      I am appreciative that National decided that they need to hear and listen to the voices of those INSIDE the program at least as much, if not more as those outside the program.

      1.4 million names on an online petition don't carry any weight with me. 1.4 million names of people who have youth in the program or youth who have been turned away from the program (notice I said youth, not adults) carry a lot of weight. Those are the people with a stake in this, not political activists with an agenda who have simply targeted an organization because they are large and visible. In our neck of the woods we are highly suspect of any adult who stomps their feet and demands to be in leadership. There are many ways we can support our sons - not everyone will be a registered leader.

      So, fight away. But it won't be with me. I am content to wait.

      Comment


      • #34
        Mom...your gonna need to post a link to your stats.


        I signed that petition so I can say with absolute certainty that One Scouter with a boy and soon girl in the program voted for allowing gay and lesbian Adults be leaders.

        Comment


        • #35
          I am appreciative that National decided that they need to hear and listen to the voices of those INSIDE the program at least as much, if not more as those outside the program. 1.4 million names on an online petition don't carry any weight with me. 1.4 million names of people who have youth in the program or youth who have been turned away from the program (notice I said youth, not adults) carry a lot of weight.

          I've been a member of the Boy Scouts since 2005. Earned my Eagle in 2011. I'm a Volunteer in the Troop I grew up in, I'm a Merit Badge Counselor, and I work with the Council National Eagle Scout Association. I'm one of the 1.4 who signed that online petition that doesn't carry any weight with you. Can you explain to me how I can possibly carry any more weight with you? (I'm 19, so I can't have a son in the program yet.)

          Yours in Scouting,

          Comment


          • #36
            What stats might that be, Basementdweller? You mean the 1.4 million and where those votes came from? They came from Change.org - that is who produced the petitions that were hand carried with much fanfare to National. It has been all over the news. And anyone can vote at Change.org - from anywhere in the world. There is no stat I need to post a link for.

            I take nothing away from your signature. YOUR voice should be heard in the mix. You have an investment in the program.

            For the record, I have the exact same issue with any petitions that may have come from any of the big religious organizations. They don't mean squat to me.

            I would love to see EVERY registered adult and the responsible adult for EVERY registered youth sent a questionaire. There is likely already a record somewhere of just how many people have actually been removed and those who have applied and been turned away. They should be sent one. Plus, anyone else willing to fill out an application on behalf of their openly gay son needs to be heard from. And then ask the organizations that actually extend the charters -not their national organizations but the ones that really sign the charters. And that is it. Those are the people with a stake in this. Those are the voices I am interested in hearing from.

            I'm not afraid of that. Are you?


            Comment


            • Basementdweller
              Basementdweller commented
              Editing a comment
              They can postpone it all they want...... Not going to change my program one bit.

              So Ultimately I really don't care what they decide

          • #37
            They don't need to ask every Scouter or parent. They only need to ask about 1500. Do a scientifically valid survey of the local unit volunteers and another of the parents. However, are we all going to be preapred to accept the survey results, whatever kind they might do?

            PS: If my math is off, Stats was a long time ago.

            Comment


            • perdidochas
              perdidochas commented
              Editing a comment
              Roughly speaking, if they select the volunteers and parents randomly,400 should be enough of each (about a 5% error). 1500 would be a bit more reliable, (about a 3% error). My latest pet peeve of surveys is that too many surveys I've been involved with lately have been thrown out. IMHO, it's because the results didn't match what the higher ups wanted.

            • MomToEli
              MomToEli commented
              Editing a comment
              Maybe they are counting on the 1400 who are involved in the Annual Board meeting to represent the masses.

          • #38
            Originally posted by Get Outdoors
            Is anyone surprised by them not making a decision...business as usual. Why do we, the heart and soul of the BSA put up with this kind of stuff. Can we fire these bums?
            Did you hire them? If not, they you probably can't fire them.

            Comment


            • #39
              I think DeanRx says it very well, except that in his last sentence, I wouldn't say I am "disgusted", just very disappointed. I have gotten used to the BSA not handling difficult issues very well, but it did seem like they were moving in the right direction on this one. I still don't get why they would put that statement up on Scouting.org, linked from the front page, if this were not a done deal.

              As for petitions and surveys, I have not participated in any on this subject. I guess I should decide which is the right way to make my opinions known to National, and do it.

              It also baffles me that anyone could read the opinions expressed in this forum, many of which favor the change, and still conclude that the impetus for this change is some "outside" group or groups. The people in this forum who favor the change are all active Scouters, with one exception that I am aware of. Additionally, as far as I know, not that it should matter but for whatever anyone thinks it's worth, none of the people actively posting in this forum are gay, or at least nobody has identified themselves as such. (There was one who did, but he has not posted for a number of years.) We're just Scouters who disagree with National's policy and think local option would be in the best interest of the organization, and ultimately in the best interests of the Scouts.

              Comment


              • MomToEli
                MomToEli commented
                Editing a comment
                Quite simple, actually. I don't believe that we represent a fair snapshot of Scouting in general. There are many people who don't get involved with any type of online forums for a variety of reasons - ranging from limited time to limited comfort with technology to whatever - and of those who do there is a really small percentage that engage in these types of conversations for a variety of reasons - the two biggest that come to mind are, again, limited time and then I've found even in real life few people have the stomach for any sort of controversy or debate. This board alone boasts something like 1400 active members and there are perhaps a dozen of us in this conversation?

            • #40
              I remember someone posting about a year or so back.. I believe he was a youth, and did admit he was still in scouting, just not coming out.. "You know, the closeted homosexual, that we are suppose to accept, because they are not openly gay".. Some of our conservative scouters called him every name in the book, and acted like he was lower then pond scum.. Yet they say things like "Truely we respect them, just not near us".. I didn't blame him for not returning to the forum. It was not this forum's finest moment..

              Comment


              • MomToEli
                MomToEli commented
                Editing a comment
                And I was not among those calling him names, as the record here will prove. Not ALL conservatives are total asses on top of it.

            • #41
              Unfortunately we are in a no win situation. If we change the policy, I feel we will lose at least 20 % of our members, if not more. This is based upon the group of councils asking for time to study the question and get input from the members and parents, or as they put it, "the stakeholders." Also don't forget, those pushing for the change will not be happy with local options as "It's a good first step" as one gentleman put it.

              And if we keep the current policy, we become a cultural paraiah.

              Comment


              • #42
                I would not want to be in charge of security at whatever site is chosen for that national meeting. The protestors outside and the media obession is going to make it into a total freak show.

                Comment


                • #43
                  I have about had it with BSA's national leadership. I am seriously considering whether I can remain a member of this organization. I have been a scouter for 15 years, pack committee, Cubmaster, troop Committee Chair and for the last 8 years I have been an assistant scoutmaster. I have been crew advisor on 5 high adventure treks. The scouts that joined when my son aged out have just aged out themselves. Most earned Eagle. I have continued in scouting for the boys but I am increasingly uncomfortable with the out of date membership policy. At work I have had to be increasingly cautious about with whom I discuss my involvement in scouting. Eagle92 said it best, we are becoming a "Cultural pariah." Some would say we already are.

                  I guess I will hold on to May but if BSA does not change the policy I will fulfill whatever commitments I have to our troop and then leave. I am tired of explaining my continued membership to my friends, my co-workers and--most importantly--my wife.

                  Comment


                  • Basementdweller
                    Basementdweller commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Just curious,

                    Exactly what is to explain?

                    I had a lady who knows I am a scouter try to pick a fight about the BSA's policy regarding sexual orientation. My response was the fight and decision is above my pay grade and what ever was decided won't impact what is happening in either of the organizations I am involved with.

                    She followed up with doesn't it bother you that.............

                    My response was simply......NO, that isn't how my little corner of scouting is or operates..... I have my boys and a committee of adults to answer too..... The boy don't know or care about it. That is all I have to say about it

                  • MomToEli
                    MomToEli commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Just know that I've been hearing these exact same comments from people on "the other side". Long time Scouters who are ready to immediately tender resignations if they vote to change. They were ready yesterday but now will wait and see.

                    I have never met a person outside of the Boy Scouts who looked down on me, as an adult, for being involved in Scouts. I have never met a single person, adult or youth, who have complained about the membership policies (though I realize there have been those in different parts of the country) of the Boy Scouts. My son has several years of fundraising under his belt, being one of the top popcorn sellers in the Council for all of Cub Scouts and the first year of Boy Scouts, going door to door to residences and businesses, most of whom we don't know, and never once has anything said they wouldn't buy popcorn or whatever because they disagree with any part of the Boy Scout organization or program.

                    All of that to say what you claim is totally contrary to my personal experience. (Which does not negate YOUR personal experience one bit.)

                  • Hal_Crawford
                    Hal_Crawford commented
                    Editing a comment
                    MomtoEli: the area I live in is probably mor progressive or liberal than where you live. We had a star scout quit about ten years ago stating that he objected to the membership policy. Our membership has shrunk somewhat over the years but that probably is not because for the policy. Based on the conversations I have had I would say that more of our parents oppose the policy than support it. Many of our scouts have gay friends.

                    Lately, people i know seem more interested I discussing the policy than the good things scouting does for youth and the community. It is sad that scouting is becoming more identified with its membership policy than its program.

                • #44
                  Originally posted by DeanRx
                  This was the WORST thing they could have done ! Who exactly are they getting more input from? As a registered leader for the past 7 years, I have never, not once been asked to give my input - fill out an online survey regarding this issue, etc... but they have no problem getting ahold of me for a FOS donation every year!
                  Funny, I used to be active in a political party, was even a Precinct Captain for a while. Every year they sent me a survey on various national issues. The last question was of course, how much money can you donate... Maybe BSA ought to adopt that. Hey, we have FOS coming up! Maybe...

                  This delay is really the worst of everything. At this point, I think Irving needs to find some way to declare the moral equivalent of bankruptcy, find a way to distribute the character and morality aspects of the program to a bunch of other people. The whole cause of this imbroglio is National setting themselves up as a moral arbiter. To be perfectly blunt, they aren't good enough at it. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with their G-G-G positions, they've done a terrible job of explaining their decisions, and simiply allowed the program to become a lighting rod for political pressure from all sides. They did the most foolish thing possible, they centralized authority and then weren't prepared for the inevitable power struggle that comes when you do that.


                  Comment


                  • #45
                    HELLO!?!?! Anyone capable home up there? I'm doubting it because it seems like national decisions are being made by the least competent people you could imagine running a corporation. Either that, or else by a group of monkeys with a keyboard. Is there any professional out there anywhere who thinks that this was handled well? First the surprise announcement that they were changing the policy, and then the surprise backpedal.

                    At this point I am completely in awe of the BSA's ability to do this so incredibly, stunningly, badly. I think Homer Simpson could do a better job. I am normally bemused by the BSA's lack of corporate polish - but this level of sheer unadulterated stupidity goes way beyond head-scratching.

                    There are ways to handle this. Survey the troops. Hold meetings with various groups, some publicly - hint that your position is evolving. Prepare people that change is coming. And then when it does come, actually DO IT!

                    I'm with Dean - I am truly disgusted.

                    Comment

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