Kahuna Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I've been following info on the jamboree list and other sites, including the official ones and don't really like what I'm seeing. I've been to only 2 jamborees: leader in 1969 and staff in 2010. Those and all the others to date have been held in places that are readily accessible to the public and have had the attributes of a display of scouting abilities, as well as fun activities for boys. It appears that everything at The Summit will be designed for high adventure and a high degree of physical fitness. The public will be able to access only a special area of the jamboree and with some difficulty. Staff housing is pretty primitive, leaving staffing to the younger guys. Apparently, there will not be a merit badge midway and even if there were I don't see how the staff could get in the stuff for a lot of those badges. I worked at the midway in 2010 and we were busy from opening until closing. I just wonder if volunteer input had anything to do with the changes or if it was entirely an invention of National. I wasn't asked for input, not any other staff I know. Maybe this is the wave of the future or maybe the end of jamborees. I frankly wonder if they know what they are doing. I certainly would not plan to staff or attend what is going to be an experiment using live people. Anybody else have any thoughts on this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engineer61 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I've had some thoughts on it...but it's been poo-poo'ed away by everyone. The questions I sent to BSA were never answered...guess since I'm not registered, I don't deserve one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 To be honest, everything you've said sounds like a positive to me. If it wasn't for the $2250 price tag, I'd be supportive of sending my son(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortridge Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Isn't the entire place only going to be partly constructed by 2013? Thus leading to some of the "deprivations"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resqman Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I live within a few hour drive to the old site and the new site. Travel costs could be small for me to attend. I am just confused about why I would want to go to a Jamboree to start with. Can someone help me understand what you got out of attending a Jamboree in the past? Why would someone want to go to a Jamboree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 When it comes down to it, what makes a Jamboree is the scouts who go there. If meeting people from everywhere is your thing, then this is the place for a young lad to start. At least, that's the core of my Jamboree memories from 30+ years ago. That said, I've never been interested in going back, nor have my kids had much interest. (Although, my daughter enjoyed hosting a local satellite party of the arena show.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertrat77 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Now that resqman mentions it, I have often wondered at my lack of desire to attend a jamboree, both as a scout and scouter. If I was going to attend a jambo as a scout, it would have been the one in '77. Made no plans to attend as our troop was going to Philmont that same timeframe. The morning we finished our trek and were within a mile or so of arriving at tent city, we passed a solo scout who was day hiking up to the Tooth. We all stopped and talked a bit. He'd just left the '77 jambo and swung thru Philmont on the way home. Asked what he thought of jambo he casually said "Yeah, it was pretty cool...rained alot." So he told us of all the mud and tent issues and such. Some chow stories too. He didn't seem that impressed with the whole thing, kind of like a big camping trip. Nothing against jambos--I wish the event and the scouts and scouters the very best. But my personal wish is to go back to Philmont for another trek. The jambo just isn't on my radar. However, I am truly interested to hear from the jambo fans on what they think of the matter. Jambo is a big part of our heritage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BartHumphries Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 2k+ per person is a lot of money -- that'd pay for like a solid summer of normal summer camp. We could hit a different summer camp each week for an entire summer and still have money left over for other activities for 2k/person. For that much money, we could all get SCUBA certified, get all our gear, buy an old 30' blue water boat, all the food and water and sail to Hawaii and back. My brother bought a 27-footer a few years ago for $2.5k and it required a lot of sanding and fiberglass restoration, several days spent scrubbing, but with a troop to work on it it'd only be 5-6 full days. I think the boat market is more depressed -- completed listings on eBay are showing around that much for a 30-footer and for an extra thousand or so I might be able to get another 5-10 feet. If the draw is meeting people from other countries, I can see that -- I love meeting people as much as anyone else. For that amount of money, though, we could actually travel to Europe and backback across most of it over the summer instead of spending a single week in whatever US state this Summit place is in. Seriously, would you rather go backpack across Europe over multiple weeks or go backpack on part of the Appalachian Mountain Trail for less than a week? 2k+/person is a heck of a lot of money to blow for a week. I wouldn't mind going to a national jamboree, but not for that price. Not even for half that price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Kahuna, I thought the reason why the Jamboree is being set up the way it is was to make the Jamboree much more high adventure-oriented I had thought that many had dismissed the National Jamboree as a convention of "cupcake scouts" who jammed together, ate drank and made merry and spent no time indulging in anything that could remotely be described as "High Adventure" and now the thought is that the New Jamboree style is "Too High Adventure"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tampa Turtle Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I don't mind the HA emphasis, the "County Fair" aspect of some Jambos and Camporees kinda turn me off. I probably am not fit enough to do some of the activities (though I am working on it) For the amount of money I rather help pay for a backpacking trip to Europe as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey H Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 "It appears that everything at The Summit will be designed for high adventure and a high degree of physical fitness. The public will be able to access only a special area of the jamboree and with some difficulty. Staff housing is pretty primitive, leaving staffing to the younger guys..." Compared to other Jamborees at Ft. AP Hill for the past 30 years, what you describe sounds like an improvement. I'm sure those that attend will have a grand time. I suppose the down side will be a downturn of attendance for the curious "day visitors", but some will see that as a plus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmbear Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 My brother and I were thinking of reserving camping nearby for a day of visiting, but then spend some time whitewater rafting as well. Our sons won't quite be Jambo age by 2013, but will for the next one after that. Like you desertrat, I was at Philmont in 1976, and my money had been spent on that. The Jambo the following year was just too much for my family. I'd aged out by the next one and in college, though my brother, 4 years younger, got to one. I think the high adventure camp at the Summit will be cool, but the Jamboree isn't as big a deal. But if I managed to become a Scoutmaster or leader of a Jambo unit, I definitely wouldn't turn it down. I believe the likelihood of that is slim, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahuna Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 To those who wonder why go to a jamboree: The fun is in the association with all those other Scouts. You find others interested in the same things you are and learn about new things. At the 2010 jambo, there were plenty of adventures for the Scouts to get into. We have Philmont. We have the Northern Tier. We have Seabase. We now have the Summit. It just seems to me that we don't need to make the jamborees into high adventure activities. Lots of Scouts go just to trade patches or earn merit badges. That may or may not seem like a great idea to everyone, but I think attendance in future years will drop as a result. I have never talked to a Scout who didn't have a good time at a jamboree, even the ones like '77 where it rained all the time and the '69 where the dust sent kids to hospitals for lung infections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 While we can make all kinds of dire or glorious predictions about 2013, we cannot really know how well the new direction will work. While I may sometimes be a bit polyanish (sp), it seems to me, having attended three, 1960-85-2010, as a senior scout, 1st ASM, and staff, it sounds as if they have actually listened to those actually participating. I personally would love to give it a try, but realize it is unlikely for me because of age and health concerns; though I might still visit if possible. Restricting visitors to part of the event makes very good sense, as they were a huge part of the overload at A.P.Hill. Making the overall footprint less, but putting more "real" scouting adventure into it seems a positive. And taking staff out of the scouts' areas is also logical, as much of the staff have jobs that require very early or late time frames, and their comings and goings tended to disturb many nearby units, as well as added to the congestion in many camp areas. On the other hand, we can hope that National will do a serious appraisal of what works and what does not, then work on improving going forward towards the World and future National events. I personally would like to still see some form of merit badge area, as that was a very popular area for youth to whom I spoke over the past 20 years; and I saw many really great displays and real interactions with experts going on. We also need to keep in mind that the location will also eventually be a true high adventure base with its own unique elements, as well as a training location along the lines of PTC. As far as cost goes, the actual jambo fee pretty much covers real expenses on site. Most of the amounts of which people complain are costs above the base fee for units participating. Our local council is determined to reduce the cost by a minimum of 20%. Reality is that transportation and fees for tours and connected lodging can inflate things considerably. On the other hand, much of the jambo experience is based on the trip to and from for a large majority of participants. Also, it appears that National has made efforts to reduce the costs to attendees by changing the needs of the units. They will not have to bring tents or much else, and there will be severe restrictions on troop equipment on site beyond what is furnished. Not having to ship all that stuff is very positive; I know, as that was a major headache for me in 85. Not sure how I feel about the gateways; that has always been a true reflection of jamborees, world or national. So, let us all take a deep breath and see what happens. But, those that insist that because National is involved in the change, it has to be a disaster, and that Jamboree will go the way of the dodo, maybe you can at least give the new ideas a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR540Beaver Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I attended as an ASM in 2005 and 2010. I currently sit on my council's Jambo committee that has just started meeting. The thinking and planning for Jambo by national has taken a complete 180. Probably for the better. We have not received the Council Guide yet, but I can tell you what I know. At AP Hill, the footprint was 5,000 acres and we actually had bus lines set up with school buses to move people from place to place. The Jambo fooprint at Summit is 1,000 acres. This is a good thing. It makes getting from one place to another much easier. Instead of having Regional subcamps with duplicate sfaff like at AP Hill, Summit will have a single, centralized reduced staff to support the whole Jamboree. Speaking earlier of getting from one place to another easier, you had to dodge traffic at AP Hill. The roads were constantly abuzz with cars, delivery and service trucks and busses. At Summit, there will be no vehicles inside the footprint. There will be external roads that lead up to the edge where things can be loaded or unloaded. This is a good thing. I mentioned regional subcamps earlier. Gone. Taking a cue from world Jamboree, the subcamps will include troops from all over the nation. Southern Region troops won't all be grouped together and multiple contingent troops from a council won't camp next to each other. Three troops from council XYZ might be assigned to Subcamps 5, 18 and 20. I see that as a good thing. There will be permanent infrastructure built instead of wood stud and visqueen shower houses with all the PVC above ground. This is a good thing. There will be a visitors center with a Jambo lite experience. Participants can enter the visitor area, but visitors can't enter the Jambo footprint. This is a good thing. Too many visitors jammed up lines at venues and the line would be hours long at times. Since they are building permanent infrastructure, the place will be wired. To eleviate over crowding, each participant will be given a "J-Phone" upon arrival. Prior to attending Jambo, boys will pre-select what they want to do and an individualized schedule will be created for them. The J-Phone will tell them what day and what time to arrive at scuba, or the zip-line or anything else they have selected and they will be able to walk up and do it with no waiting in line. The J-Phone is also how any information or announcements will be delivered to participants. The $850 price tag of Jamboree will include everything you need. All tents, cots, dining flies, tables, chairs, cooking equipment. etc. is included in the price. They even provide your daypack and duffel bag which will be shipped to council. That is all a boy brings with him. No footlockers. The bus will get you close to your subcamp, you disembark and walk to your campsite with your pack and duffel and all your equipment is waiting for you to set up. This is a good thing. Having sat on the previous two Jambo committees, you have no idea what is involved in procuring all of the equipment and then loading it on an 18 wheeler you have to rent to get it all to Jamboree. Having everything there is a good thing. Having all of it as part of the $850 is an even better thing. It means that the council can charge less. In 2010, our proce tag was $2,995. This time we started out with $1,995 and as of last night, we are toying with dropping it to $1,500. How and why. Before, we flew to Philly and toured and then bussed to DC and toured several days before heading to Jambo. Airline tickets, hotels, restaurants, tour guides, busses, etc. all cost money. This time we are going by bus straight thru to Jambo with no touring. This drops the price drastically and makes it more available to more kids. This is a good thing. One final thought. Patch trading will take place at specific times at a specific location with adults monitoring. This too is a good thing. https://summit.scouting.org/en/Jamboree2013/Pages/2013-Jamboree-Highlights.aspx(This message has been edited by sr540beaver) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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