Membership continues to decline?

[skeptic]

At least inn our neck of the woods, So Cal, I still see a lot of confusion with our longest lasting units that tend toward starting with Methodists.  The "workaround?" that in theory protects the Church from direct legal problems is confusing and in some areas still, apparently seen as a line in the sand.  We are fortunate that our particular small (once very large) congregation loves the units we have in the basement and comes out in force when we have fundraising events.  We also help as possible with many things within the church, but it is also struggling, as are most mainline Protestant churches, to maintain.  We have three small congregations with two pastors serving them in the area.  One location, while still in the district and area, is being slowly redeveloped in hand with local efforts for the homeless and similar issues.  An affordable housing project is currently in process on what was once a large parking lot for the defunct church.  But, its main buildings are still serving the community through the conglomerate maintained.  We still seem to have at least three, maybe four Methodist-affiliated unit families in the council, but pinning it down is hard, as the charter is fuzzy, at best.  

[mrjohns2]

On 9/16/2025 at 9:09 AM, Tron said:

Everything about the metrics makes sense except the fact that units are not being forced to comply with data entry, and units still think they can just "not engage" with district or council.

Correct. One has to either use Scoutbook or import from a 3rd party tool to get advancement in AND they have to enter if they went to camp. To get the data on camp, for the test years, he used our council camp data and then, with the help of commissioners, contacted units that camped outside of council (or didn't at all).

The ideas was that we have rarely had enough unit commissioners. So, focus them on the "at risk" units. Units scoring 4 or 5 don't need as much help.

[Tron]

On 9/17/2025 at 12:33 PM, RememberSchiff said:

How faith-based support is helping Scouting America stabilize

Stabilize?

"According to Scouting America’s latest data, faith-based organizations account for 42% of the nearly 40,000 units operated by chartered organizations. The Catholic Church and its affiliates are No. 1 — overseeing 3,514 units serving more than 87,100 of the roughly 1 million boys and girls now active in scouting.

Other major sponsors include the United Methodists, the Episcopal Church and various Lutheran and Presbyterian denominations. Nearly 250 units, serving more than 6,500 scouts, are sponsored by Muslim, Jewish and Buddhist organizations.

...

 

Back in 2013, the United Methodists accounted for almost 350,000 youth members in the Boy Scouts. The figure now is 52,600.

While Christian churches account for the vast majority of Scouting America’s faith-based units, there are more than 3,500 scouts in Muslim-sponsored units and about 1,560 in Jewish-affiliated units.

...

One step the organization will not take, (Roger) Krone said, is abandoning the religious credo at the core of its mission. The famed Scout Oath begins, “On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God,” while the Scout Law’s concluding message is: “Be reverent toward God. Be faithful in your religious duties. Respect the belief of others.”

Krone acknowledged that some nonreligious families, while admiring aspects of scouting, might be uncomfortable with the “Duty to God” pledge. He encourages them to try scouting nonetheless."

 

Similar sources:

https://www.ctpost.com/living/article/despite-past-challenges-scouting-america-21052590.php

https://fortune.com/2025/09/17/catholic-boy-scouts-bankruptcy-scandal-mormons/

The Methodist thing hit hard here; but it was odd. We had a lot of Methodist units, but a lot of the unit membership was not Methodist. So when the Methodist thing with the charters disrupted scouting, we lost a lot of units in my area, but the scouts were not Methodist so it never made much sense on why other non Methodist chartered units didn't pick those scouts back up? Was the Methodist church paying a lot of membership dues like the LDS was? 

On 9/17/2025 at 12:57 PM, skeptic said:

At least inn our neck of the woods, So Cal, I still see a lot of confusion with our longest lasting units that tend toward starting with Methodists.  The "workaround?" that in theory protects the Church from direct legal problems is confusing and in some areas still, apparently seen as a line in the sand.  We are fortunate that our particular small (once very large) congregation loves the units we have in the basement and comes out in force when we have fundraising events.  We also help as possible with many things within the church, but it is also struggling, as are most mainline Protestant churches, to maintain.  We have three small congregations with two pastors serving them in the area.  One location, while still in the district and area, is being slowly redeveloped in hand with local efforts for the homeless and similar issues.  An affordable housing project is currently in process on what was once a large parking lot for the defunct church.  But, its main buildings are still serving the community through the conglomerate maintained.  We still seem to have at least three, maybe four Methodist-affiliated unit families in the council, but pinning it down is hard, as the charter is fuzzy, at best.  

I use to live next to a Methodist church and they were HUGE, I mean, at least 1000 active churchgoing members. They are tiny now, they had to sell their church and downsize to an old smaller church on the other side of town. I spoke with the pastor and she said they have like 100 parishioners left. It happened almost suddenly, I want to say that within a decade they went from being the largest Christian congregation in my area to the smallest and no one has a single idea why, nothing bad has ever been said about the pastor or church board. It's weird. 

19 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

Correct. One has to either use Scoutbook or import from a 3rd party tool to get advancement in AND they have to enter if they went to camp. To get the data on camp, for the test years, he used our council camp data and then, with the help of commissioners, contacted units that camped outside of council (or didn't at all).

The ideas was that we have rarely had enough unit commissioners. So, focus them on the "at risk" units. Units scoring 4 or 5 don't need as much help.

The lack of commissioners is bad. I think my district is down to 3, the district committee is doing this at risk thing as well. The problem is no real solid definition of an at risk unit. I went to a roundtable (might have been a scouting u class) about these new metrics and the council commissioner was adamant that these metrics are not for evaluating a unit, they are for "finding discussion topics".  Are we experiencing our scouting version of purple math don't test the kids moment? 

[skeptic]

2 hours ago, Tron said:

The Methodist thing hit hard here; but it was odd. We had a lot of Methodist units, but a lot of the unit membership was not Methodist. So when the Methodist thing with the charters disrupted scouting, we lost a lot of units in my area, but the scouts were not Methodist so it never made much sense on why other non Methodist chartered units didn't pick those scouts back up? Was the Methodist church paying a lot of membership dues like the LDS was? 

I use to live next to a Methodist church and they were HUGE, I mean, at least 1000 active churchgoing members. They are tiny now, they had to sell their church and downsize to an old smaller church on the other side of town. I spoke with the pastor and she said they have like 100 parishioners left. It happened almost suddenly, I want to say that within a decade they went from being the largest Christian congregation in my area to the smallest and no one has a single idea why, nothing bad has ever been said about the pastor or church board. It's weird. 

The lack of commissioners is bad. I think my district is down to 3, the district committee is doing this at risk thing as well. The problem is no real solid definition of an at risk unit. I went to a roundtable (might have been a scouting u class) about these new metrics and the council commissioner was adamant that these metrics are not for evaluating a unit, they are for "finding discussion topics".  Are we experiencing our scouting version of purple math don't test the kids moment? 

Basically, from my area info, there was/is an ongoing rift in the larger denomination related to the Acronym issues.  World wide, the scism is huge, again related to the social changes.  But it is really most of the oldline protestant denominations that have suffered due to changing community views and fewer churched families.  The concept of families attending church together has fallen away, partly due to the societal changes, but frankly also due to many families having struggles just to keep themselves going, and the Church often did not respond well.  Still, spirituality is often apparently seen as personal, and the dictates of old line denominations that could not respond affected responses.  Somehow our congregations continue to serve the community and while now very small, are functioning and adjusting.  But the community resouce the church is makes it a survivor.  We are not likely to ever see the pattern of the last century.  

 

[MikeS72]

18 hours ago, Tron said:

The Methodist thing hit hard here; but it was odd. We had a lot of Methodist units, but a lot of the unit membership was not Methodist. So when the Methodist thing with the charters disrupted scouting, we lost a lot of units in my area, but the scouts were not Methodist so it never made much sense on why other non Methodist chartered units didn't pick those scouts back up? Was the Methodist church paying a lot of membership dues like the LDS was? 

At least in my district we did not lose units due the Methodist pull out, they all (5) found other charter organizations to pick them up.  Also, while I cannot speak for all districts or councils but in this area the Methodist Church did not pay for membership.  My own unit was one of those who had to find a new C.O. and while we were at the Methodist Church, we only had one member who was also a member of that church.

[skeptic]

2 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

At least in my district we did not lose units due the Methodist pull out, they all (5) found other charter organizations to pick them up.  Also, while I cannot speak for all districts or councils but in this area the Methodist Church did not pay for membership.  My own unit was one of those who had to find a new C.O. and while we were at the Methodist Church, we only had one member who was also a member of that church.

From what I have dug up, our unit always paid its own way, though it was often enhanced by people within the larger Church Family who donated generously.  And, while we may soon get out from the "Council" in theory, CO shadow, the use agreement is solid.  Here is a just posted on FB Church link, for example.  

The Scouts have always helped the church when we needed them. It is now our turn to help the scouts. What perfect way to say thank you, and we are glad you are here.

 

If you have some extra time and would like to help, the Church Office has a list of chores that can be done at any time. Give Kathleen a call or email because many hands make light work.

[PACAN]

@Jameson76 said

Bottom line, 815,000 youth in 230 (or so) councils means 3,500 youth per council.  If a Council Executive (average) pay is $200K (all in) that means just for the local CE there is a burden of $57 per member.  Data suggest 3,100 or so SA employees, so that may indicate (with benefits) just labor overhead burden of +/- $190,000,000 or $233 PER YOUTH member.  That is before any other overhead costs such as IT, liability insurance.  SA (formerly BSA) needs to reduce the costs, focus on growth, and get rid of what doesn't add value.

 

My friend sent these.  235 councils.  Only 11 with more than 10K youth.  Less than 4% with more than 3K.  20% with less than 1K.

[Tron]

On 9/19/2025 at 3:04 PM, PACAN said:

@Jameson76 said

Bottom line, 815,000 youth in 230 (or so) councils means 3,500 youth per council.  If a Council Executive (average) pay is $200K (all in) that means just for the local CE there is a burden of $57 per member.  Data suggest 3,100 or so SA employees, so that may indicate (with benefits) just labor overhead burden of +/- $190,000,000 or $233 PER YOUTH member.  That is before any other overhead costs such as IT, liability insurance.  SA (formerly BSA) needs to reduce the costs, focus on growth, and get rid of what doesn't add value.

 

My friend sent these.  235 councils.  Only 11 with more than 10K youth.  Less than 4% with more than 3K.  20% with less than 1K.

My count is 230 councils with 4 currently known folding/merging into other councils (2 in NY, 2 in CA) right now. You're $57 is a fair market estimate of the cost to support a CE, toss in the cost of the other non district serving professionals (director of field services, director of camping/program, comptroller, staff financial accountant/advisor, registrar, etc ... )and that cost rockets up. The crazy part is that if you review the NAM videos for finance there are only like 20 councils or less that are financially stable, the majority are "stable but in trouble"., about 40 councils are ready to go bankrupt any moment. 

[HashTagScouts]

3 hours ago, Tron said:

My count is 230 councils with 4 currently known folding/merging into other councils (2 in NY, 2 in CA) right now. You're $57 is a fair market estimate of the cost to support a CE, toss in the cost of the other non district serving professionals (director of field services, director of camping/program, comptroller, staff financial accountant/advisor, registrar, etc ... )and that cost rockets up. The crazy part is that if you review the NAM videos for finance there are only like 20 councils or less that are financially stable, the majority are "stable but in trouble"., about 40 councils are ready to go bankrupt any moment. 

What NY councils are you tracking? Last I heard, Suffolk County Council voted against merger with Theodore Roosevelt Council.

[Tron]

On 9/22/2025 at 2:31 PM, HashTagScouts said:

What NY councils are you tracking? Last I heard, Suffolk County Council voted against merger with Theodore Roosevelt Council.

They did, they were on transitional charter and lost their hat. This isn't a situation where councils get to just be a 2 yr old and say no. Instead of a merger they're now being absorbed without say in the matter. 

[njdrt-rdr]

On 9/15/2025 at 11:18 AM, Tron said:

Scouting is becoming more expensive but it isn't super expensive. One of my units recently got a family back from sports. They had pulled all of their kids and pumped them into baseball and after a year of the costs of organized baseball they came right back to scouting. 

I think the expensive part of scouting is hidden by bad units and units that are too reliant on district/council based programming. One of the troops that I help with is getting ready to do its big fall campout and the cost for a weekend is currently at $70 a person. I'm struggling to understand why, with our state parks and how cheap it is to camp in them the cost should be more in line with $20 a person (for a 2 night 3 day campout). 

The council fees are ridiculous. Michigan is $85 a person which is the highest in my neck of the woods. I look across the council line and I have no idea what they are getting for that $85 that we are not getting in my council and we're barely paying a council fee here. 

We just had a brand new scout join our troop here in NJ, between council($75), national($85) and administrative fee($4.88). The fee to BSA to join was $167.68.
Our campout this weekend we are canoeing. Our troop has canoes, but we can't get enough leaders this weekend to shuttle ourselves so we had to hire a shuttle. It's $31 a person for the shuttle and $10 a person to camp (group site at a state park) so we are at $41 each for the weekend and haven't charged for food or supplies yet. So I can see a campout being $71. 

[Tron]

19 hours ago, njdrt-rdr said:

We just had a brand new scout join our troop here in NJ, between council($75), national($85) and administrative fee($4.88). The fee to BSA to join was $167.68.
Our campout this weekend we are canoeing. Our troop has canoes, but we can't get enough leaders this weekend to shuttle ourselves so we had to hire a shuttle. It's $31 a person for the shuttle and $10 a person to camp (group site at a state park) so we are at $41 each for the weekend and haven't charged for food or supplies yet. So I can see a campout being $71. 

Wow, just had this discussion at a troop this week. A parent was like "I want to do a canoe trip, I know a troop that will rent us their canoes and canoe trailer." and my retort was "I know that 4 of us own canoes already, why are we paying anything to rent when we can do it for free?" and the retort was the shuttle/trailer thing and I spouted back "I think we can hustle up enough people who own canoes who can also haul their own canoes." and then I said "We just need to tell all of the parents that this is a price point issue, we can provide this opportunity and adventure at a much more affordable price point for the scouts if we get more parent participation to support this event." I got the F .... you know what eyes and the stink face for the rest of the night. 

[Jameson76]

23 hours ago, njdrt-rdr said:

We just had a brand new scout join our troop here in NJ, between council($75), national($85) and administrative fee($4.88). The fee to BSA to join was $167.68.
Our campout this weekend we are canoeing. Our troop has canoes, but we can't get enough leaders this weekend to shuttle ourselves so we had to hire a shuttle. It's $31 a person for the shuttle and $10 a person to camp (group site at a state park) so we are at $41 each for the weekend and haven't charged for food or supplies yet. So I can see a campout being $71. 

We do an aquatics outing at a large lake near us.  Have boats come in for tubing, rent canoes from the camp.  After camping fees (out of council camp), rental fees, and boat gas reimbursement, it can be close to $45 - $50.  None of the leaders ask for gas money etc, but the outings can get costly when you pay state park fees, maybe an outfitter, maybe some admissions, and other costs