Is traveling in convoys allowed?

[Tatung42]

I was just having a conversation with another scouter, who asked me why we were not traveling to camp in a convoy.  I told him that even though our Troop normally does it that way, it actually specifically says in the GTSS that caravaning is not allowed, so on outtings where I am supervising, we won't do it.  He said back to me back "ya right, show me where".  To my shock, when I tried to looked it up, I couldn't find anything, even though I swear that it was there in older editions.  Am I just imagining things or was it removed?  Old posts like this one, even quote exact parts of the GTSS that I was looking for:

And if it was removed, why?  I think that 99% of the time when a driver gets lost, it is because they were not too sure where they were going, and they were just planning to follow the car in front of them.  I always provide directions to drivers and stress to each driver that they need to know where they are going, without the aid of their GPS assisted navigation (which might not work when their signal is weak).

Edited May 2 by Tatung42
Fixed Typos

[mrjohns2]

I did see in somewhere. I will look. It isn't a good idea, so don't do it. 

Copy for 1999 has it: Guide to Safe Scouting (scoutingbsa.org)

[Eagledad]

Should still be there. National added it when they found scout car accidents occur more often in convoys. Following drivers pay less attention when the aren't navigating and often break traffic laws trying to catch up to the lead car. A lot of motorcyclist have accidents in group rides for the same reason. We found that all the cars typically show up to the destination within 15 minutes even after a 600 mile day.

Of course the the SM always showed up first.

Barry

[skeptic]

One of the reasons I was surprised to have them eliminate the filing of the Tour Permit.  That was another check to try and make sure rules were followed, as the permit had them and also included verifications of insurance and so on.  

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

Traveling in convoys or caravanning used to be specifically prohibited.

Not anymore, insofar as I can see, either.

The practice itself is not bad.  It's that, as pointed out above, drivers have a penchant for breaking laws and creating unsafe conditions while "trying to keep up." 

The focus is now on distracted driving, which is a leading cause of accidents.

And the admonition to obey all traffic laws...

The drive to and from any Scouting event is the highest risk / most dangerous part of the event.

Here are a few resources for reference:

Guide to Safe Scouting - Transportation Section :  https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss11/

SAFE Transportation Checklist and Pre-Trip Inspection:  https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-696(21)-SAFE-Transportation-Checklist-FPO3-5172021.pdf

Risk Zone Training:  http://www.scouting.org/filestore/healthsafety/pdf/632-006_wb.pdf

BSA Drive Safely On Line Training, SCO_805, found in my.scouting Training...  not required

One of the hardest things any of us will ever do is take a drive and obey EVERY traffic law perfectly.  Give it a real try sometime, observe your driving practices, and evaluate yourself honestly... 😜 

 

[skeptic]

While I seldom drive any distance now, and try to stay off the freeway too, when I do, I am often considered an annoyance, or worse by others.  I obey speed limits and when I am on the freeway, I try to not hinder others, but do adhere to that speed.  If I am on cruise at the max limit and in the center, for the most part, I will not move over just so someone else can speed, especially when moving would then interfere with my safety.  The right lane is the most difficult because it is the entry and exit lane most of the time.  I will move to it when light traffic and not dangerous.  And I also have finally accepted the fact that if, safe for me, I can move and let the scofflaws go, then return.   My father impressed defensive driving and common sense, and I can truthfully claim no moving violations in almost 65 years of driving.  Safety, courtesy, and obey the laws.  

 

[DannyG]

I think it used to be policy to not convoy. Still it is best practice to avoid them. Even if you meet together and travel as a group, make sure each driver has directions and knows where the destination is. Drivers should be focused on the road, not trying to stay together in a convoy. Have a plan to communicate, whether it is by cell phone, walkie-talkie, whatever.

[SiouxRanger]

Very interesting thread.

After 25 years of adult participation-never heard mention of the "no convoy" rule. 

As a lawyer, I've read a great deal of BSA documents on policy, 2 deep leadership, guide to safe scouting (no boomerangs, rats), stoves, liquid fuels. use of words with more than 7 syllables but less than 10 syllables, best practices to avoid plummeting space junk (NASA branded but ownership denied), bull roarers (OK-I think), coracles (nope), etc.

A scouting professional once "corrected me" telling me that "scouting is not complicated."

Compared to a soccer program where parent drops off child to race across field to the game and returns to the car?

Parental involvement in soccer can be nil. Liability risk is less than nil.

Scouting is very complicated.  AND, if you get it wrong (somehow, and it is easy to do), you might end up a defendant for some abuse case and paying your own lawyer tens of thousands of dollars ultimately to be proven innocent.

Try BANKRUPTCY.  Seems to have worked for National.

All of that sounds "simple" to me. Nope.

Our troop has convoyed for my 25 years there. Though never had a vehicle incident, that is anecdotal and no basis to make policy.

Much to my distress, I was always designated as the lead. Only got everyone lost once-BUT, I was following the directions precisely of someone who claimed to know what they were talking about. In our wanderings, we came across a local in the hinterland who gave us corrective directions and we made our way safely. (Sunday morning after the campout, we ran into the good smaritan in a grocery store who reminded us (M)E that "you are the lost guys I got on your way…" (Thanks.)

So, if convoying, having been the lead, there are some pointers I have learned:

1.  The lead is "driving for everyone."  That is, my van is 5-10 vehicles long. Like driving a train. You can't run through a light nd leave the rest of the train hanging.  You stop at the light. Let folks catch up. With luck all will make it through the next light.

2. Everyone needs to know where they are going in case they get separated from the convoy.  It all becomes a massive flow chart, taking into account all the unlikely events and imponderables. (On one convoy, a van lost some electrical connection under the dash.  We all stopped, the driver's brother who happened to work at an auto parts place in the town where the failure occurred, sent the right part and an hour later, the ENTIRE troop was on its way.

3.  If a vehicle suffers some failure, if all are on their own-no convoy, then that vehicle is on its own.  To get to the train taking our treks to Philmont, we ALWAYS

 

[SiouxRanger]

convoy so that if a vehicle has a failure, we can still get the youth/adult to the train on time. And the wounded vehicle can sort out repairs later.

4.  Things happen.  Run out of gas. Bathroom stops. 

5.  Lead MUST know the number of vehicles following, and MUST have a good sense, well perfect, of what the last vehicle looks like headlight wise.

6.  A written list of cell phone numbers distributed to all drivers, and if not, MUST exchange cell phone numbers to lead and tail drivers.

7.  Tail driver NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, passes the second to last driver.  The tail driver is always, ALWAYS the last driver. Some driver stops for any reason, the tail driver always remains the tail driver. The tail driver never passes any vehicle in the convoy.

We have had times, rarely, where the convoy got quite spread out and the lead pulled onto the Interstate shoulder for folks to catch up.  A questionable thing to do, but depending on circumstances, traffic load, sunshine, etc., not as risky as might be thought.

It is a lot to ask of the lead, but if everyone is paying attention it does work.

HOWEVER, in light of the information I've learned on this thread, I have to reexamine the wisdom of convoys.

(On one convoy to summer camp, a dad, once hitting the interstate, disappeared at 80-85 mph., flying past everyone.  Met up with him an hour later at the summer camp. Well beyond the speed limit.)

My half cent's worth. (not pricing myself above that sage, the Remember guy…)

[skeptic]

As I noted earlier, the old tour permit specifically noted no convoying or caravaning.   It was on the permit someplace and had to be noted and signed.  But, basically, as noted here everyone should know where they are going in case they get lost.  Meet up places for head count is a good idea.  Most importantly have some sort of connection other than vision to the others.  

[HICO_Eagle]

I don't remember the prohibition against convoying on the old tour permit but we usually only had 3 vehicles when going anywhere and we made sure everyone understood the route we were taking before setting out. The difference often being that the drive leader HAD to lead from the front rather than middle as on a hike. I suppose others would have called that convoying, we called it being aware and keeping the group together.

[mrjohns2]

16 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

It is a lot to ask of the lead, but if everyone is paying attention it does work.

 

Where I have seen it “fail” is when you get on local roads with traffic lights. It can easily split up and cause people to either brake hard or “blow” a light. Not good stuff. 

[Eagledad]

21 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

convoy so that if a vehicle has a failure, we can still get the youth/adult to the train on time. And the wounded vehicle can sort out repairs later.

4.  Things happen.  Run out of gas. Bathroom stops. 

5.  Lead MUST know the number of vehicles following, and MUST have a good sense, well perfect, of what the last vehicle looks like headlight wise.

6.  A written list of cell phone numbers distributed to all drivers, and if not, MUST exchange cell phone numbers to lead and tail drivers.

7.  Tail driver NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, passes the second to last driver.  The tail driver is always, ALWAYS the last driver. Some driver stops for any reason, the tail driver always remains the tail driver. The tail driver never passes any vehicle in the convoy.

We have had times, rarely, where the convoy got quite spread out and the lead pulled onto the Interstate shoulder for folks to catch up.  A questionable thing to do, but depending on circumstances, traffic load, sunshine, etc., not as risky as might be thought.

It is a lot to ask of the lead, but if everyone is paying attention it does work.

HOWEVER, in light of the information I've learned on this thread, I have to reexamine the wisdom of convoys.

(On one convoy to summer camp, a dad, once hitting the interstate, disappeared at 80-85 mph., flying past everyone.  Met up with him an hour later at the summer camp. Well beyond the speed limit.)

My half cent's worth. (not pricing myself above that sage, the Remember guy…)

Take out point 5, everything else applies when drivers are on their own. Before cell phones, we moved a whole troop of 120 six-hundred-miles and ended up at the destination with in 15-20 minutes. So it works well. 

Before cell phones, we used radios that had a range of 50 miles. Our trailer broke an axle in Colorado and all other cars knew within minutes. A plan was set to which car would help and which ones would continue to next stop at a safe place for a bunch of scouts. Much better than stopping a  whole caravan of cars along side a busy two lane highway.

Barry

Edited May 3 by Eagledad

[InquisitiveScouter]

And, for the history buffs, see page 49 in the attachment, right side, #10.

 

2007 Printing, BSAGuideToSafeScouting.pdf

Edited May 3 by InquisitiveScouter

[RichardB]

Transportation guidelines change over the years.  Language around travel has also changed, as has driver education.   Today's terms and laws focus on distance between cars, following to closely, tailgating, adding more following distance during inclement weather.    It did not make sense to keep using antique terms.   However, I'll entertain language if you all have it.  

There is also no longer language around carbon tetrachloride....has not been available in years.  

Edited May 6 by RichardB