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On my Honor - Documentary on BSA Sex Abuse Scandal

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6 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I would contend that kids are less safe in either situation, without the constant vigilance of adults who are watching out for them.

Agreed 100%. My intention was not to excise that indispensable element, jut address whether it's better to have uniform policies, protocols and layers of oversight including by survivors or none such. Just my wee effort to pose a simple either or question about the institutional vs none. I don't think many of the "burn it down" folk ponder that. I may be wrong. I was once before. I thought I was wrong and turned out I was right and thereby wrong.. 

6 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Policies do not equal vigilance...that is part of the thinking that got us here in the first place.

Yes. To infinity and beyond. (Where is Buzz Lightyear when you need him, by the way?!)

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I want to apologize for me cussing in my comment last week.I let my anger take control of my response.Please accept my apology.I don't want Scouts to shutdown.Even though I was abused I've seen a lot

I think this is the wrong way to look at the problem and is the source of a lot of angst here. Rather than ask for a specific failure rate that is acceptable, after which everyone can say there is no

Youth members also use this forum, can we please keep the conversations and language respectful of that? Scouting is local, always has been, always will be. And locally, most units operate withou

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1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Digesting this... more to follow

It's critical to remember with the non-monetery agreements related to YP that they do not consititute a laundry list of changes intended to cure all ills.  Instead, they are intended to change the culture via structural changes.  Hiring a YP Exec, engaging an outside third-party for compliance and assessment, and developing a critically-important Youth Protection Committee that is 50% Survivors will ensure on-going assessment and change.  As well, opportunity for reporting to LCs AND most importantly current and interested scouter parents aids in transparency.  Changes were needed and assuredly more will be needed.  What the BSA needs is structural and cultural changes over time and with knowledge of the public.  This is the first step.

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16 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Lol...never heard it until I moved here...  macadam

Ha. It's definitly not what you call a guy with raven hair and a flattop, but it would work very well.

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16 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Where does the question say or imply that? Scouters here have taught me the two are not the same. 

Thank you. 

My law school application:  "Are you an idiot?"

I checked "Yes!"

Got accepted.

(My professors probably gave the same answer-just kidding-most were pretty smart.  Some even human.)

Well, nonetheless, I draw a huge distinction between the Movement and those who deign themselves the high priests of the Movement.

They have long ago brought it to its knees and it now lingers at the threshold of oblivion.

Somewhere, I have an audible of a Churchill speech, spoken by Churchill, where he manages to get about 11 syllables out of the word "lamentable."

Long and drawn out pronunciation beyond its nature...

Seems that this bankruptcy is a 3 syllable word in 20 syllables.

And "lamentable" is not nearly strong enough.

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14 hours ago, ThenNow said:

If 82,500 people are killed at one type of traffic light in a particular type of location or context, that type of light either doesn't work flat out or is utterly ineffective and/or dysfunctional in that context. On that basis I don't think the analogy is apt either, but don't really care so much if it is or isn't.

My concern is with the second sentence. There can be a tendency by some to switch tenses in mid argument. When a post is addressing the past, a sleight of hand switcheroo rebuttal inserts present and future. Two different arguments entirely. That swap out is unfair, invalid as a rebuttal and, most importantly irrelevant. I'm not poking, just using this example to illustrate what I see as a fault line in one side of the debate. That's all. Carry on...

One type of light! I’m travel in Europe at moment and they use the same Red Yellow Green traffic signals as the rest of the world. And, we are warned to watch out for drivers who run red lights. The whole world knows the rules and they know when the rules are broken. 

if you want to keep using the 82,000 scouts sexually abused number (which I don’t believe), can you include the total number of BSA members during the same time? I don’t know what that is, but you seem to have insight in these details. 


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For my kids, the only way to be 100% safe from CSA is to keep them in my house under constant supervision.  However, that doesn't sound like a great way to raise a kid or for a child to grow into a mature adult.  So, yes, I have to take risks.  They go over to friends' houses where parents are home ... there is no guarantees those adults are safe.  Yes, I trust all of them, but I also know that people with dark intentions can cover them well. 

My kids are in various sports.  There are potential chances for grooming/assault.  I am a coach for one of the teams so I know the training/rules in place that help prevent it ... however, there is always a chance.

BSA/scouting is similar.  They have rules, which if followed, should greatly reduce the risk of CSA.  However, yes, there is still some risk.  I could go on with school, clubs, etc.

Going back to the question ... would I stop participating in scouting if it prevented 1 case of CSA.  Well, I would also have to stop sports, school or my kids going to friends/relative houses (which is probably the highest risk right now).  I am not willing to raise my kids in a locked down state.  That means, yes, I would continue to participate in activities that could, possibly, have some children horrifically impacted by CSA.

I think the real question, the key one, is if BSA can be made safe on a relative basis vs other activity.  I personally believe BSA rules and training do make it as safe if not safer than similar programs and it will get better post bankruptcy.  It won't be perfect AND there could be BSA units out there that are not safe.  As a parent, I would recommend watching your BSA unit to ensure they follow barriers to abuse.  If they do, I would trust them with my children ... even knowing there is still that remote chance something bad could happen.  


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5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I’m travel in Europe at moment

Lucky duck! Assuming for pleasure, enjoy!

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

they use the same Red Yellow Green traffic signals as the rest of the world. And, we are warned to watch out for drivers who run red lights. The whole world knows the rules and they know when the rules are broken. 

I have no earthly idea what this means or how it applies to the exchange. The analogy is further strained, now to the breaking point me thinks.

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

if you want to keep using the 82,000 scouts sexually abused number

Trust me. I don't "want to." It hurts me every time I see it typed on my screen or others, hear it mentioned in hearings and read about it in the funny papers. It is the number until it's not the number. 

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

82,000 scouts sexually abused number (which I don’t believe)

Is disbelief, absent proof to the contrary, serving anyone in this context? Rub that faith lamp really really hard and let's see if Robin Williams pops out and removes some proofs of claim from the Settlement Trustee's plate. Judge Houser might stroke you a check from the survivors' bank account for a reverse broker fee. 

When I contacted the Sheriff's Dept to pursue my abuser in 2003-2004, he easily found at least 5 guys who were also abused. Each could corroborate and were in statute, contrary to this geezer. He tried to get them to be witnesses in a criminal prosecution. They all declined. They were 7-10+ years younger than me, in their late 20s to 30s and lived in town. Again, none would come forward. Question: Are all of the boys who were abused by my SM claimants in this case. 100%, "No." One of them, a good friend of my baby brother's, drank himself to death in his 40's. Are there others who are not? I bet so, but I don't know for p-positive. 

To reiterate what's been said many times, most effectively by MYCVA, there is a latency period for CSA disclosure especially with men. In my case, I was 40 when the ground opened up and the magnitude of it hit me. Even then, I did not fully admit or recognize what was happening and why. That took another 10 years until I was 50. Interestingly, and I just this second realized it, the period of greatest tumult was while my boys were the age I was during my Scouting tenure. It started when my oldest son asked to join Scouts and I began to turn the corner about the time he would have aged out.

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

can you include the total number of BSA members during the same time?

I can, but I already sent my Regret to your RSVP. Smart aleck aside, I could find them but am not motivated to do so. I don't see the point. I'm not going to debate this point any more. If you think BSA's historical model of men taking boys who are not their children into the woods and into their homes without layers of oversight and protocols to protect kids was just as good as any other organizations - which you appear to believe - my words are not going to change your mind. Okay. If you insist, I'll add more of my words anyway.

When I started chiming in on this forum I mentioned all the other youth activities in which I participated and compared the levels of private access to kids vs BSA. When I added them up on a sheet of paper, the other organized and supervised activities (save being an altar boy and all that went with it) had fewer opportunities for abuse than what I experienced in Scouting alone. My experience. My anecdotical research, but it was a decent example of what I'm taking about. I had and have no reason to fabricate. I was part of a snow shoveling and lawn mowing business during the same time frame I was in Scouting. I was outside all the time. I worked in many locations. Adults were around me and saw me working. I was never abused by an adult during my tenure in that enterprise. I was the only employee and the boss. Context matters as to opportunity. 

Edited by ThenNow
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6 hours ago, Eagledad said:

if you want to keep using the 82,000 scouts sexually abused number (which I don’t believe), can you include the total number of BSA members during the same time? I

Would you ask those who talk about the Holocaust to include the total number of people in the world when they talk about the 5 million killed by the Nazi's? 

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