Jump to content

Recommended Posts

On 7/14/2021 at 6:55 AM, RememberSchiff said:

Ozark Trails Council (MO) is considering selling the 180 acre Frank Childress Scout Reservation.

Council statement

The Ozark Trails Council is exploring ways to fund our council’s contribution to the survivor’s compensation Trust, as part of the national organization’s bankruptcy process, while ensuring that Scouting will continue serving youth and families in our communities for years to come. The sale of council property is a potential means to achieve both imperatives. 

The council received an unsolicited offer to purchase Frank Childress Scout Reservation, and our Executive Board is scheduled to vote on whether to accept that offer during its July 15th meeting as part of ongoing discussions on how to best position the council for the future. 

The decision to sell any council-owned property will be difficult. The reality is the Council Executive Board has few options to fund our contribution to the survivor’s Trust. Our leadership team is committed to making decisions that are in the best interest of continuing our important mission and delivering Scouting’s invaluable programs to youth in all 31 counties that make up the Ozark Trails Council. If this sale is approved, there will still be a council property within an hour’s drive for members from every corner of our council’s service area.

As a reminder, our council has not filed for bankruptcy. The Ozark Trails Council remains as dedicated as ever to delivering our nation’s foremost program for character development and values-based leadership training in our communities. Our council serves about 4,300 young people on an annual basis and will continue to do so throughout this process. We are looking forward to an enriching summer of programming, including water sports on Cow Creek, and overnight campouts at Plagens Wildlife Area and Frank Childress Scout Reservation. 

Source:

https://www.fourstateshomepage.com/news/the-boy-scouts-of-america-ozark-trails-council-is-considering-selling-a-reservation/

7/16 Update

"An overwhelming amount of the Ozark Trails Council's 31 board members voted on Thursday against accepting an offer for the Frank Childress Scout Reservation."

"I don't know of anyone with the desire to sell one of our camp properties, so they were preaching to the choir," Scout Executive John Feick said. "We still have to fund a significant contribution to the settlement, so we're going to have to figure out something at some point, but it's clear that one thing we do not want to have to do is sell properties."

https://www.joplinglobe.com/news/local_news/boy-scouts-council-rejects-offer-for-frank-childress-campground/article_77383c6e-e654-11eb-806e-67eb929e4200.html

Edited by RememberSchiff
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 231
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

@skepticand @CynicalScouter let's just drop it right now.  

They are not human shields, they are youth being served a high quality program. Please stop with the baiting of using comparisons. Victims on this site have stated that it is painful to see tho

Part of the problem, too, is that we are trying to create these country-club type experiences for people.  Swimming pools, air conditioning, hot showers and flush toilets, climbing towers, ATV program

Posted Images

9 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

"We still have to fund a significant contribution to the settlement, so we're going to have to figure out something at some point, but it's clear that one thing we do not want to have to do is sell properties."

"Something at some point."

Yeah, that point was July 9.

There are LCs that are still I think going to be living in a fantasy land of "We can have it all".

So, this made me curious about the Council Ozark Trails.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/ee5156a3-0c08-4833-a600-8256c44c8a56_5485.pdf

They have 166 claims against them, of which only 9 are inside the SoL.

They are in Missouri, a "Gray 3" state, meaning they only have to pay 10-25% of the value of the 157 claims outside the SoL.

Childress was/is an odd thing. When BSA released its data on all LC properties, there were two Fair Market Values listed.

  • The first, done by CBRE, was $789,750
  • The second, submitted by the Council itself, was $1,480,000

The council's others camps were also different from what the professionals said the Fair Market values were.

  • Timmons Wildlife Area: JLL said it is worth $126,000 Council says $100,000
  • Camp Arrowhead: CBRE said $1,123,740 Council says $2,150,000
  • Springfield Scout Service Center Office/Store CBRE $2,160,500 says Council $2,000,000

They have $6,208,975 in Long-Term Investments and only $384,304 in debt and other liabilities.

I am guessing that this may be one of those councils that in the end figure they'll go cash (selling those Long-Term Investments) in order to keep the camps?

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/15/2021 at 9:54 AM, CynicalScouter said:

Didn’t you just tell us that it was losing $400,000 a year ?

In other words take the sentimental feelings out of this for a second does it make financial sense to bail out a camp that is losing money?

this is why I think a lot of camps in fact I know a lot of camps are still around is because any efforts by local councils to sell them was being met with fierce resistance even if the financial situation was such that the council was having to bail out the camp.

Scouting is approximately 1/3 to 1/4 the size it was when a lot of these camps were being built. even if the bankruptcy never happened a lot of these camps needed to be sold because they were financial losers.

 

This depends on your perspective.  I don't know if these camps were ever really self-sufficient, but it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't.  I think a good summer camp is important enough to the experience that I don't mind a LC running a money losing camp, where you run into a problem is when you have a state like Michigan where we have so many camps that they are all losing money, while if you shut down 1/4-1/3 of them and re-shuffle the scouts to fill up the remaining camps, they'd all be in the black.

I get the sense that in many councils the camp reservations have often born the brunt of budget shortfalls because they are the easiest places to pull funds from when there is a bad year.  And that can work out OK, except that you have to actually put that money back when you get the good years and I think that was getting skipped in many cases as well.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

What does "All Unique and Timely Abuse Claims" mean vs All Not Barred....Claims  on the chart?

  • All Unique and Timely Abuse Claims = All claims that are unique (not duplicates) and timely (filed by the deadline in November)
  • All Not Barred Unique and Timely Abuse Claims = All claims that are unique (not duplicates) and timely (filed by the deadline in November) and within the statute of limitations deadline for that state (not barred).
Edited by CynicalScouter
  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, elitts said:

This depends on your perspective.  I don't know if these camps were ever really self-sufficient, but it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't.  I think a good summer camp is important enough to the experience that I don't mind a LC running a money losing camp, where you run into a problem is when you have a state like Michigan where we have so many camps that they are all losing money, while if you shut down 1/4-1/3 of them and re-shuffle the scouts to fill up the remaining camps, they'd all be in the black.

I get the sense that in many councils the camp reservations have often born the brunt of budget shortfalls because they are the easiest places to pull funds from when there is a bad year.  And that can work out OK, except that you have to actually put that money back when you get the good years and I think that was getting skipped in many cases as well.

Camps in my experience get last chance at any funds the council has. Office staff salaries come first and always have for the past 30 years. 

It was a major event years ago when a camp in my council got a brand new dishwasher for the dining hall. There were pictures of all the staff next to it. They were so proud!!! 

That said I think from the early 90's on investment in camps has been very minimal in most councils. 

Then if summer camp stops there is no investment and the clock starts for the camp to be sold. I have seen this multiple times. They last an average of 10 years after summer camp ends before being sold.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Simon Kenton Council in Ohio announced at a scouting forum that they will most likely sell Chief Logan Reservation and Camp Madison Lake. CLR is a main summer camp where this is the last summer for camping. Madison Lake is a very small camp, basically a single campsite on a state park lake. They also said they have to contribute 2.7 million to the settlement in cash and property.  They said they were surprised that it was not more.  This council has been very upfront with the bankruptcy for the past year.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry if this is a big ramble, but I want to thank Scouters here for the discussion. We just returned from the first time at a new camp outside our council.  It was overall, very nice and obviously nicer,  more well maintained, and more functional/updated than our own council's camps.  We're not talking luxury or modern camping here, but you can tell that the property is loved, cared for, invested in. 

I so appreciate the discussion about camps closing becuase we immediately re-booked for next year, anticipating that availability might start to get tight. (We are booked in with a deposit at Long Lake, kudos and thank you to all the camp staff.)  After next summer we will know so much more about the status of camps in the state.

I remain hopeful that our council will maintain at least one camp property.  I pray that all Scouts will continue to have many camping and summer camp opportunities. 

Edited by WisconsinMomma
  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

Simon Kenton Council in Ohio announced at a scouting forum that they will most likely sell Chief Logan Reservation and Camp Madison Lake. CLR is a main summer camp where this is the last summer for camping. Madison Lake is a very small camp, basically a single campsite on a state park lake. They also said they have to contribute 2.7 million to the settlement in cash and property.  They said they were surprised that it was not more.  This council has been very upfront with the bankruptcy for the past year.

Unlike Simon Kenton Council, our council has NOT been upfront regarding the bankruptcy. All the information stays at the Executive Committee/Board of Directors level.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...
On 7/15/2021 at 9:59 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Part of the problem, too, is that we are trying to create these country-club type experiences for people.  Swimming pools, air conditioning, hot showers and flush toilets, climbing towers, ATV programs, bicycle liveries, STEM centers with computer labs, bands, fireworks, catered food service...sorry, but we have lost the bead on what a week under canvas is supposed to look like.

How much does a wilderness camp cost to maintain?

I've never been at a Scout camp with a swimming pool... just lakes, and a canoe livery for a nearby river. Nor a "band", nor fireworks.

And for a full-program camp (Scout summer camp, Cub Scout activities, etc.), some amenities make a lot of sense.

A window air conditioner for the Health Lodge should only be a few hundred dollars (and might use its price in electricity in a single season, or over a few years, depending on how hot the weather gets and how intensive the summer program schedule is).

And mountain-biking and climbing (and a zipline) are definitely "outdoors" and "physical", even if they're more noisy and use more equipment than a silent hike looking for birds, mammals, and insects.

But I remember a roundtable I went to where camp closures were discussed, and I overheard a comment about a "hundred-thousand-dollar tractor tire". I think there are more basic costs to running a big wilderness camp, and they'll be there regardless of whether the Council tries to bring in all the bells and whistles.

For example, access-roads for fire safety and emergency response.  HomeAdvisor says that the cheapest gravel-road material is "crush and run" aggregate, but enough to cover one mile, 12 feet wide, depth of 4", would be about $8500. That doesn't count the cost to own or rent a tractor to put it in place, or the cost of cutting trees and flattening terrain.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You would be surprised at how many camps have pools. One camp I know has a man-made lake with a purposely built swimming area. But because they do have  under 18 y.o. aquatics staff, they built a pool to follow federal laws on waterfronts and under 18 year old staff. 

  • Thanks 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

On camp maintenance.  If councils would devote 20% of what they spend on office staff salaries to camp maintenance and improvements, every camp in the BSA would be in good condition. I am not saying multi-million dollar pools, just routine maintenance and updates. 

 

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, DavidLeeLambert said:

For example, access-roads for fire safety and emergency response.  HomeAdvisor says that the cheapest gravel-road material is "crush and run" aggregate, but enough to cover one mile, 12 feet wide, depth of 4", would be about $8500. That doesn't count the cost to own or rent a tractor to put it in place, or the cost of cutting trees and flattening terrain.

This is indeed one of the major factors in camp upgrades.  The required width of access roads has increased over the years as emergency response vehicles have gotten larger and in many communities with strict zoning and building rules you can no longer get permits to build or expand (or sometimes even repair) existing structures without complying with current codes. So if you have a camp with 3 or 4 miles of access roads that are 10' wide but building a new structure will require expanding those roads to 16' wide, that's a really big expense to tack on in addition to the cost of whatever the building will be.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Camp Oklawaha is a 60-acre camp that parents say has been owned by the Boy Scouts for decades and is used by Scouts from around the state who go there for camping, fishing, and other outdoor activities.

The Gulf Stream Council Boy Scouts of America sent an email to Boy Scout families which reads in part: "As you may already know, the Boy Scouts of America reached a settlement with abuse survivors in the amount of $850 million so that victims can be fairly compensated. $500 million of this settlement is expected to come from local councils in the form of cash or properties. To be a part of the settlement and to receive the benefit or protection from any claim litigation relating to allegations of past abuse, the Gulf Stream Council must contribute $1.1 million in either cash or property."

Terrence Hamilton, Scout executive of Gulf Stream Council Boy Scouts of America. says they plan to launch a fundraising campaign to try to raise $1.1 million from local donors, to avoid having to sell Camp Oklawaha.

https://cbs12.com/news/local/parents-upset-about-possible-sale-of-boy-scout-camp

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...