Two Promises (Oaths), One Scouts Canada

[RememberSchiff]

Summer, 2020: Scouts Canada has provided an alternate promise for scouts and volunteers.

More details, including a FAQ, at source:

https://scoutsca.s3.amazonaws.com/2020/08/scout-promise.pdf

Unlike BSA (DRP),  You do not have to believe in God to join Scouts Canada. Scouts Canada is proud of its commitment to diversity and welcomes members of many different faiths, denominations and non-religious backgrounds...Spirituality is and has been one of the three main principles of Scouting since its inception more than 100 years ago. In Scouting, the term ‘spirituality’ appeals to a broad concept that may relate to: faith that is not associated with a doctrine, religious beliefs, or an appreciation for existence outside of oneself.

Scouts Canada Total Youth Membership:

2018-2019:  56,802

2017-2018:  58,881

2016-2017:  63,460

2015-2016:   61,438

Edited August 22, 2020 by RememberSchiff

[The Latin Scot]

From the great Baden-Powell himself:

Quote

"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every Scout should have a religion ... Religion seems a very simple thing: First: Love and Serve God. Second: Love and serve your neighbor." (Scouting For Boys, 1908)

"The atheists ... maintain that a religion that has to be learnt from books written by men cannot be a true one. But they don't seem to see that besides printed books ... God has given us as one step the great Book of Nature to rea; and they cannot say that there is untruth there - the facts stand before them ... I do not suggest Nature Study as a form of worship or as a substitute for religion, but I advocate the understanding of Nature as a step, in certain cases, towards gaining religion." (Rovering To Success, 1930)

"Development of outlook naturally begins with a respect for God, which we may best term Reverence. Reverence to God and reverence for one's neighbor and reverence for oneself as a servant of God, is the basis of every form of religion. The method of expression of reverence to God varies with every sect and denomination. What sect or denomination a boy belongs to depends, as a rule, on his parents' wishes. It is they who decides. It is our business to respect their wishes and to second their efforts to inculcate reverence, whatever form of religion the boy professes. There may be many difficulties relating to the definition of the religious training in our Movement where so many different denominations exist, and the details of the expression of duty to God have, therefore, to be left largely in the hands of the local authority. But there is no difficulty at all in suggesting the line to take on the human side, since direct duty to one's neighbor is implied in almost every form of belief." (Aids To Scoutmastership, 1919).

When asked where religion came into Scouting and Guiding, Baden Powell replied, "It does not come in at all. It is already there. It is a fundamental factor underlying Scouting and Guiding." (Religion and the Boy Scout and Girl Guides Movement - an address, 1926)

If you ask me, mere numbers are no sign of success, or if they are, it is the wrong thing succeeding. I am by far more troubled and concerned by the growth of Scouts Canada since these changes than I am encouraged by it.

Edited August 22, 2020 by The Latin Scot

[Cambridgeskip]

I suspect that Scouts Canada will simply be the latest in an increasingly long list of national organisations doing this. Scouting is a movement, it has to move with the times. Just like in the UK Scouts Canada are not ditching religion but simply making room for those with no religion. And that can only be a good thing, bringing people together with different beliefs.

[69RoadRunner]

To help out my wife and daughter, I just had to pledge to be a sister to all Girl Scouts.

[MikeS72]

51 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

To help out my wife and daughter, I just had to pledge to be a sister to all Girl Scouts.

I guess that means my younger brother was also a sister when he was one of my niece's GS leaders.🤣

[69RoadRunner]

14 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

I guess that means my younger brother was also a sister when he was one of my niece's GS leaders.🤣

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by RememberSchiff
image not related to topic, that's not allowed

[RememberSchiff]

16 hours ago, Cambridgeskip said:

I suspect that Scouts Canada will simply be the latest in an increasingly long list of national organisations doing this. Scouting is a movement, it has to move with the times. Just like in the UK Scouts Canada are not ditching religion but simply making room for those with no religion. And that can only be a good thing, bringing people together with different beliefs.

From  the Scouting Association in the United Kingdom which as I understand provided alternate Promises starting in 1993? Hopefully I found a current link

https://www.scouts.org.uk/por/1-fundamentals-of-scouting/11-variations-to-the-wording-of-the-promises/

1. Scouting is open to people of all faiths and of none and must therefore take account of the different religious obligations of its Members while upholding the essential spirit of the Promise.
    
2. The following table shows the alternative wording of the Promise that young people and adults may wish to use to best reflect their own beliefs:

Religion or Belief	Beaver Scout Promise	Cub and Scout Promise (for British Subjects)
Christian, Jew, Sikh	...to love God	...duty to God and to The Queen
Muslim	...to love God or ...to love Allah	On My honour... or In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent the Most Merciful... ...duty to God and to The Queen or ...duty to Allah and to The Queen
Hindu	...to love God or ...to love my Dharma	...duty to God and to The Queen or ...duty to my Dharma and to The Queen
Humanist, atheist or no faith	... To be kind and helpful and to love our world	... To uphold our Scout values, to do my duty to The Queen

 

Recite a traditional Scout Promise that fits the spiritually of some,  a generic promise for all, or an alternate promise for you? 

Edited August 23, 2020 by RememberSchiff

[Eagledad]

Scouts Canada has been going hyper liberal since the 90s. This actually might be a tactic to appeal to conservatives.

Barry

[Cambridgeskip]

18 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

From  the Scouting Association in the United Kingdom which as I understand provided alternate Promises starting in 1993? Hopefully I found a current link

https://www.scouts.org.uk/por/1-fundamentals-of-scouting/11-variations-to-the-wording-of-the-promises/

1. Scouting is open to people of all faiths and of none and must therefore take account of the different religious obligations of its Members while upholding the essential spirit of the Promise.
    
2. The following table shows the alternative wording of the Promise that young people and adults may wish to use to best reflect their own beliefs:

Religion or Belief	Beaver Scout Promise	Cub and Scout Promise (for British Subjects)
Christian, Jew, Sikh	...to love God	...duty to God and to The Queen
Muslim	...to love God or ...to love Allah	On My honour... or In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent the Most Merciful... ...duty to God and to The Queen or ...duty to Allah and to The Queen
Hindu	...to love God or ...to love my Dharma	...duty to God and to The Queen or ...duty to my Dharma and to The Queen
Humanist, atheist or no faith	... To be kind and helpful and to love our world	... To uphold our Scout values, to do my duty to The Queen

 

Recite a traditional Scout Promise that fits the spiritually of some,  a generic promise for all, or an alternate promise for you? 

Alternate promise was from around 2013 sometime. Although even before that for youth members at least there was not requirement to actually have a religious belief. You just had to make one of the (all religious based) offical versions of the promise to join.

[SSScout]

Faith and Chaplaincy?  

When I served as a Jamboree Chaplain,  I met more than one Scout that expressed the idea/concern/opinion of "I'm not so sure about this God stuff."   We would have a VERY open ended conversation .  Scoutmasters that required their Troop to attend some religious service, if only for "educational" purposes, was  an idea that raised some questions in my mind.  Pick a service, I don't care what , just go. 

 The idea that atheism is NOT a religion is always interesting.  The idea that belief in a "higher power"  delineates a sub group (large tho it may be) that must totally exclude folks that cannot in good conscience promise to "do my duty to God"  also makes for a good discussion.  Then too, we have the not-too-sure agnostic label.    

Perhaps a choice of Scout Promise is a good thing, an inclusive thing, maybe.   I have come to say that there are really FOUR promises in the BSA promise, anyhow, rather than the THREE that are mentioned in the Handbook explanation.   After all, we promise to "do my duty to God,  to our country, to others and to myself.     Country and God should NOT be one and the same, yes? 

[Eagledad]

31 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Faith and Chaplaincy?  

When I served as a Jamboree Chaplain,  I met more than one Scout that expressed the idea/concern/opinion of "I'm not so sure about this God stuff."   We would have a VERY open ended conversation .  Scoutmasters that required their Troop to attend some religious service, if only for "educational" purposes, was  an idea that raised some questions in my mind.  Pick a service, I don't care what , just go. 

 The idea that atheism is NOT a religion is always interesting.  The idea that belief in a "higher power"  delineates a sub group (large tho it may be) that must totally exclude folks that cannot in good conscience promise to "do my duty to God"  also makes for a good discussion.  Then too, we have the not-too-sure agnostic label.    

Perhaps a choice of Scout Promise is a good thing, an inclusive thing, maybe.   I have come to say that there are really FOUR promises in the BSA promise, anyhow, rather than the THREE that are mentioned in the Handbook explanation.   After all, we promise to "do my duty to God,  to our country, to others and to myself.     Country and God should NOT be one and the same, yes? 

I know two Eagles about my age who are atheist. They went, they saw, they made a choice. If we don't encourage the one, how will they know the other?

God and country in the same sentence doesn't mean they were intended as one in the same. The Oath is very directive of who the scout is to serve and list them in priority. One may not like the priority, but there is a philosophical reason for the list. Country represents community and family. Family or community as a whole requires loyal service for the good of their individual members. It's is a continued cycle; the act of service to one drives a wanting desire toward servicing the other. 

Barry