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Jameson76

Interesting observation - rank advancement

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@walk in the woods  I agree with you.  What you posted are references to "qualified" Venturers and Sea Scouts.  After they earn First Class rank, they are "qualified" to continue earning Scouts BSA ranks, merit badges, and awards while they are in a Venturing crew or a Sea Scout ship (they do not have to be dual registered in a troop after they have earned First Class rank).
 

4.2.0.1 Scouting Ranks and Advancement Age Requirements
All Scouts BSA awards, merit badges, badges of rank, and Eagle Palms are only for registered Scouts [defined as members of Scouts BSA troops or Lone Scouts in the Scouts BSA program], including Lone Scouts, and also for qualified Venturers or Sea Scouts who are not yet 18 years old. Venturers and Sea Scouts qualify by achieving First Class rank as a Scout or Lone Scout, or Varsity Scout (prior to January 1, 2018). The only exceptions for those older than age 18 are related to Scouts registered beyond the age of eligibility (“Registering Qualified Members Beyond Age of Eligibility,” 10.1.0.0) and those who have been granted time extensions to complete the Eagle Scout rank (“Time Extensions,” 9.0.4.0).

4.3.1.4 Boy Scout Advancement in Venturing
Venturers who earned First Class when registered in Scouts BSA are qualified until their 18th birthday to continue with Scouts BSA advancement. If desired, they may maintain multiple (dual) registration in a troop and crew, and work on ranks in either unit.

4.4.0.1 Scouts BSA Advancement in Sea Scouts
Sea Scouts who earned First Class rank when registered in Scouts BSA are qualified until their 18th birthday to continue with Scouts BSA advancement. If desired, they may maintain multiple (dual) registration in a troop or ship, and work on ranks in either unit.

 

The temporary transition rules are clear:  "all requirements must be completed while the individual is a registered member of Scouts BSA, or after achieving the First-Class Rank in Scouts BSA (as specified in the BSA Guide to Advancement, an individual after earning First Class Rank in Scouts BSA may transfer primary membership to Venturing or Sea Scouts and continue to work on Eagle Scout requirements)."
 

Either "all requirements" means "all requirements" or it does not.  Even for Scout rank it says:  "All requirements for the Scout rank must be completed as a member of a troop or as a Lone Scout."  Miss Ireland could not have been a member of a troop prior to February 1, 2019.  It does not matter what she did prior to joining a troop, she simply was not eligible.   This is really no different from the rules that apply to Venturers: if a Scout earned the backpacking merit badge while registered with a troop but prior to joining a Venturing crew, he or she would have to complete the Ranger backpacking elective requirements again once registered with the crew.

Miss Ireland said that she wanted to be a Scout.  Now she can be a Scout.  She said she wanted to be able to earn the Eagle Scout rank.  Now she can do so by following the same rules as every other girl.  She can track her fitness requirements for Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class after she joined a troop - just like every other girl.  She can do her service hours after she joined a troop - just like every other girl.  She can complete all of the merit badge requirements after she joined a troop - just like every other girl.  Same with leadership positions of responsibility, etc.

I hope that national requires her to follow the same rules as every other girl.

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2 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

First, there was no waiving of FC rank for WSJ, because there was never a rank requirement. Only an age requirement. That goes back to literature I received prior to and at the 2017 NSJ. 

As far back as i could remember, which admittedly is 1983 WSJ in Canada, you had to be 13 and First Class. Even at the 1995 WSJ, the Scouts were 13 and First Class.

 

Then there is this from this thread: 

 

There's a lot happening in mid-April 2019! Share your favorites with your Scouting network!

6c7b9b5ab7aadfe8c74908104a88de54.png

The 24th World Scout Jamboree (WSJ) will be held at the Summit Bechtel Reserve in West Virginia, July 21 - August 2, 2019. Some 50,000 Scouts from 170 countries will take part in this once in a lifetime experience. Troops and Crews are doing unit shakedowns in April-May; many Scouts BSA Troops for girls will gather in Charlotte, NC a couple days before the start of the WSJ to conduct the shakedown with other members from across the country, before traveling to the WSJ as a group. Scouts must be between 14 and 17 years of age at the start of WSJ. To encourage participation by new Scouts BSA troops for girls, the 1st Class requirement has been waved for these units. For more information, contact Jay Eidson, NCAC International Representative and BSA North East Region Commissioner.

 

NOW, if National did indeed begin advertising WSJ with no rank requirements prior to 2017 NSJ, I am really starting to think the decision to allow girls was made way before the town hall meeting and the poll. Too many coincidences for me to say otherwise, i.e. July 2017 youth application with gender neutral language for Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, selection of CSE with limited traditional Scouting professional experience but tons of Exploring service, now the lack of advertising First Class for WSJ as well as the 2017 changes to camping requirements to 3 camp outs after being upped in 2016, as well as some other things my mind is drawing ablank on at the moment.

 

 

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4 hours ago, an_old_DC said:

Please. You have been a moderator a very long time and monitor these threads—particularly the Ireland threads. You know her  Scoutmaster, Advancement Chair and CC from her Boy Scouts of America troop routinely submitted advancement paperwork to their NY council—knowing full well it would be rejected but doing so anyway. Then the troop presented her with all of the awards and paperwork anyway. That’s why she claims she is an “unofficial Life Scout.” Her troop claims she has done all the work but won’t be recognized by her council or national.

As a moderator, just a kindly reminder, lets NOT personally attack a minor.  Adults are the culprits here.  Maybe this discussion while cogent should be moved to Issues & Politics?

I think we are saying the same thing, i.e., as far as we know that Council did not cooperate in this but they did not handle it either, except for possibly calling in National at the last minute.

I do not know the unit,  CO, Council, or Scouters involved. I could find out, but I want to keep my BP down.  IMHO, this is another fine mess that a lack of leadership got us into,.

My $0.01,

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36 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

As far back as i could remember, which admittedly is 1983 WSJ in Canada, you had to be 13 and First Class. Even at the 1995 WSJ, the Scouts were 13 and First Class.

I am not sure where the links you posted came from. 

All I can tell you is that I had signed up for alerts way back in 2016. The only requirements were age (and money). This link dates back to Nov 2016 https://www.2019wsj.org/eligibility-to-attend-the-jamboree/

And I spoke with the staff who manned the WSJ tent at the NSJ. I asked about rank because I had already read the requirements that did not mention rank and my daughter was not yet eligible to join a crew and I wanted to know if I had read it correctly and if not, what, if any, rank (award) she needed to attend. I was told there were no rank requirements to attend (for crews or troops), only age. Which appears to be confirmed from this article from 8/1/2017 https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/08/01/how-to-participate-in-the-2019-world-scout-jamboree-at-the-summit-bechtel-reserve/

I also wanted to verify i was correct because as a SM for NSJ I knew that Scouts were required to have First Class rank. The staff at the tent told me it was a WSJ rule/policy as it would be difficult to have equivalent requirements across countries. SO age only was the requirement.

Beyond that, I am sending a male Scout and female Venturer, and nothing I have received or at any point in their registration has had a rank requirement only age (and a ton of money)

I have since been told two other plausible reasons.

  1. Due to the high cost, largest U.S. contingent allotment ever and WSJ minimum age requirement, there was concern about filling the U.S. contingent. As a result no rank requirements.
  2. There were some lively "discussions" around the NSJ difference in rules for Crews and Troops.

The first one certainly seems plausible and in actuality is now a reality.   The second is not very logical beyond the fact that the different programs at the national level seem to be looking for any perceived slight.

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@HelpfulTracks,

I didn't post links to prior WSJs. Obviously some of them didn't have internet links. I don't remember seeing the paperwork for the 1987 WSJ I wanted to go to, So it may have been destroyed in Katrina.  But I remember 13 and First Class as the requirements.

The link i did post was from this site and a letter that one of the other forum member received. His letter stated First Class was being waived by national

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10 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

@HelpfulTracks,

I didn't post links to prior WSJs. Obviously some of them didn't have internet links. I don't remember seeing the paperwork for the 1987 WSJ I wanted to go to, So it may have been destroyed in Katrina.  But I remember 13 and First Class as the requirements.

The link i did post was from this site and a letter that one of the other forum member received. His letter stated First Class was being waived by national

I all honesty would it surprise either one of us if one OR both sets of links have incorrect information? 
I have become accustomed to BSA info being different, even within the same site or even same post. 

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1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

As a moderator, just a kindly reminder, lets NOT personally attack a minor.  Adults are the culprits here.  Maybe this discussion while cogent should be moved to Issues & Politics?

I think we are saying the same thing, i.e., as far as we know that Council did not cooperate in this but they did not handle it either, except for possibly calling in National at the last minute.

I do not know the unit,  CO, Council, or Scouters involved. I could find out, but I want to keep my BP down.  IMHO, this is another fine mess that a lack of leadership got us into,.

My $0.01,

what in my post was a personal attack on a minor? Sincerely, I am confused.

Nevertheless, IMO, by appearing on Good Morning America or wherever, writing op-ed articles that ran in major newspapers, having her pic taken with Nancy Pelosi, etc., and in trying to make a name for herself by "calling for change," she forfeit any sense of anonominity . 

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Oh, I was expressing a gentle reminder to all. Sorry for the confusion I created.

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42 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

I all honesty would it surprise either one of us if one OR both sets of links have incorrect information? 
I have become accustomed to BSA info being different, even within the same site or even same post. 

LOL 😂 Yes, BSA indeed has a history of contradicting themselves.

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12 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

I think people are conflating different portions of the G2A. I will quote the individual sentences in order.

5.0.4.0 Youth From Other Countries

This section clearly allows for non-citizens to join BSA.

This section clearly states that prior progress made in another scouting organization may be considered and recognized by the council (note, this is not a call made by Nationals - the authority to recognize resides with the council).

The G2A never envisioned the idea that a US citizen would have foreign scouting experience that they would want to apply to BSA so the language does not account for such.

So, I ask, what does BSA accomplish by creating such an odd exclusion? Why would we grant more options and freedoms to a non-citizen than we do our own citizens?

 

Lastly, I will quote one more section of G2A:

1.0.1.0 How to Approach Issues Not Covered in the Guide to Advancement

I fail to see how anyone would argue that it is common sense to allow a female Canadian the right to have their prior service recognized in BSA but disallow a citizen of the United States the same right. What do we accomplish as an organization by creating such a prohibition?

I read this and reached excatly the same conclusion.  There is nothing in the G2A the prevents or discourages what Ms. Ireland did in any way.  It may be a very unique, and I'm sure unimagined, applciation of the rule - but it's quite legit.

What I also find somewhat hard to believe is that she joined Scouts Canada so that she could "game" the BSA advancement system down the road.

It really seems to me like she's a kid that really just wanted to be a member of a Scouting program like we have in the BSA.  I can't help but feel if she were a boy and was this passionate about Scouting we'd all be putting her up for awards and accolades.

 

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7 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I read this and reached excatly the same conclusion.  There is nothing in the G2A the prevents or discourages what Ms. Ireland did in any way. 

What about the key phrase "youth from other countries...." Unless she is Canadian,  the rule does not apply.

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9 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

What about the key phrase "youth from other countries...." Unless she is Canadian,  the rule does not apply.

You don't need to be a citizen of a country to be from there.  Notice that the specifically don't say "youth who are citizens of another country and move to the United States."  If you have a house in Canada, live there for several months, and then move back to the USA, then you'd be moving back to the US from Canada.  There's nothing that says how long you have to reside ther to be cosidered "from" there.  Just a broad "youth from other countries" who are a member of that country's Scouting association and who can show evidence of advancement in that Scouting association.

In addition, the full quote is:

Quote

Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here, may register in a BSA unit and participate in advancement.  If progress from a foreign Scouting association is to be considered and applied to BSA requirements, then the foreign Scout must meet in person (or over electronic media) with members of the council or district advancement committee, along with at least one adult leader or committee member of the receiving unit. Previous advancement work is reviewed to determine the BSA rank—up to, but not including Eagle Scout rank—the youth is qualified to receive. The candidate must present evidence of membership and advancement from the previous association. 

The BSA recognizes youth who temporarily move to the USA as being able to join, so it certainly would suggest the opposite were true.

Further, she wasn't even a member of the BSA, so it's not like she was transferring stuff back and forth.  She was a member of Scouts Canada who accumulated enough advancement over the course of her time there that when she moved back to the US and was able to join she had enough of a body of work to transfer.  Acutally, that she couldn't join the Boy Scouts probably works in her favor here.  She wasn't trying to game the system be advancement back and forth.  She wasn't allowed the join the Boy Scouts here and so her only offical Scouting experience was with Scouts Canada.  She basically wanted to transfer her advancement from Scouts Canada to Scouts BSA after moving back here from Canada.

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53 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

What about the key phrase "youth from other countries...." Unless she is Canadian,  the rule does not apply.

And I'll add, what about the key term "foreign Scout" in the following paragraph.  This seems to additionally cement the intent of that section to scouts who are not US citizens.

That being said, I am torn.   If a male scout in the US had joined a troop in the US, in 2014, then his parents moved elsewhere and he participated in another country's scouting organization and then moved back here in 2019 and applied to have that experience transferred to back to his US unit, I don't think there'd be any question in my mind about whether that was appropriate.  I know that's not exactly Miss Ireland's path, but it helps me to analyze the edge cases where "I know this is wrong", and "I know this is right", to help narrow down where the crossing point is.

I find the social-engineering being undertaken by Miss Ireland and her parents to be somewhere between unfortunate and despicable, but if Miss Ireland truly loves scouting as much as she claims, I don't see that squashing her enthusiasm is in BSA's best interest either.

I would very much like to know, how she'd answer if someone who wasn't a cheerleader for her, but also wasn't an enemy, sat down with her and had the discussion:  "I know you really would love to be the 'first female Eagle', and you believe that you have performed all the tasks that would be required of any other Eagle candidate.  Do you really think that you being the first, would be fair to all of the other girls who have, over the decades, also done all of this but couldn't be recognized?  You love Scouting, and hold the Scout Oath and Law dear to your heart.  In the context of all of those others, and all the other girls who have similar experiences as you, but don't have the privilege of your voice, do you think it's more Scout-like to try to be the first female Eagle, or, to join in inaugural class of first female Eagles that will be awarded in 2020?"

The fact that she says "I love Scouting, it's my lifeblood, why should I be stuck doing all this Scouting stuff all over again?  Ugh!" leaves me sadly suspicious that I know how that'd turn out, but at least at the moment I'll maintain my fantasies that she actually is what she claims to be.

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11 hours ago, ParkMan said:

It really seems to me like she's a kid that really just wanted to be a member of a Scouting program like we have in the BSA.  I can't help but feel if she were a boy and was this passionate about Scouting we'd all be putting her up for awards and accolades.

 

 

You are forgetting the part about how she did not have to travel to Canada to do "Scout stuff." That was all happening while she was an unofficial part of a Manhattan troop with leaders who encouraged her participation. That Manhattan troop is where she claimed to have been PL, done service projects, unofficially earned MBs and rank., etc.

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18 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

 

You are forgetting the part about how she did not have to travel to Canada to do "Scout stuff." That was all happening while she was an unofficial part of a Manhattan troop with leaders who encouraged her participation. That Manhattan troop is where she claimed to have been PL, done service projects, unofficially earned MBs and rank., etc.

She spent summers in Canada.  My understanding is that this is where she did Canadian scout stuff - not the Manhattan troop. 

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