Outside Magazine: Boy Scouts Should Allow Girls

[Eagledad 2777]

- What does single-gender scouting say about young American males today?  That they can't handle a coed environment?  That the boys in America have issues that aren't typically found in another country that does coed scouting?

 

 

Yah, I generally respect and enjoy your comments on the forum, but this one comment crossed over in to the "because everybody else does it" PC column. 

 

Barry

[desertrat77 1144]

Yah, I generally respect and enjoy your comments on the forum, but this one comment crossed over in to the "because everybody else does it" PC column. 

 

Barry

Barry, lol, I'm the least PC person I know!    Generally, if the masses are going one way, my instinct is to go the opposite.

 

I'm not advocating coed scouting because others are doing it, but because I think our scouts will benefit from it.

 

I'm too lazy to find quotes from past threads on this topic, but here are some common themes I recall in support of single-gender scouting:

 

- Girls mature faster and will outshine the boys, thus compounding the boys' already low confidence levels

- Girls will make already shy and awkward boys feel more shy and awkward

- Girls will dumb the program down

- Boys need a place to be boys

 

Are USA boys different than boys from other nations?     Do they really need single gender scouting?   Is it working here in the US? 

 

If the BSA is the place to solve these issues, it's a little late.  The all-male BSA ship sailed in the '80s when women were allowed to be ASMs and SMs. 

Edited June 23, 2017 by desertrat77

[qwazse 4342]

1. ... they literally do that in every single other endeavour they are a part of with the exception of sports.  ...

Lest we take the sports metaphor as universal dogma ...

WPa's smaller high schools have fielded the occasional female football player or wrestler to some degree of success.

In that sense, BSA is more rigid than American varsity football.

It's a big country.

 

Carry on.

[desertrat77 1144]

In for a penny, in for a pound....

 

Another random thought.  I was a cub in the '70s as the BSA transitioned from traditional scouting to the infamous Improved Scouting Program.

 

If one believed the rumors, coed BSA was right on the horizon.  Much angst from youth and adults.  If you have access, check out the letters to Pedro in Boy's Life from circa 72 and 73.

 

Well, it didn't happen.  But even as a shy, awkward cub, then as the most incompetent Tenderfoot in the troop, I didn't see what the big deal was.  If girls joined, it was fine with me.

Edited June 23, 2017 by desertrat77

[Col. Flagg 909]

Colonel, I'm tracking with you, but two things keep coming to mind:

 

- What does single-gender scouting say about young American males today?  That they can't handle a coed environment?  That the boys in America have issues that aren't typically found in another country that does coed scouting?

 

- Is traditional cub and boy scouting doing so well that we don't dare break a successful business model? 

 

LOL, I hear ya. But we have a society that cannot take saying "S**t" on TV like our more progressive cousins overseas do all the time, or showing of butts or breasts. So we Americans have MANY things that our British friends find repressed and odd, so what's wrong with one more thing (single-sex Scouting)?

 

 

This may be mostly a matter of semantics, since this is all going to be a matter of local option anyway. (Or so the BSA currently says.) In theory, a CO could have an all-boy Cub pack, a coed pack and an all-girl pack. That being the case, I'm not sure how much it matters whether you call it "Cub Scouting" or "Younger Venturing" or whatever else. (Obviously the terminology could get pretty confusing when it gets to an all-girl "Boy" Scout troop, but one of the slides that was linked from a previous thread hinted that they would come up with a new name for that.)

 

One, we don't know that the local option will be the method of implementation. Two, even if it is we now make things like camporee and summer camp that much more difficult to organize. Three, districts and councils have constrained enough resources as it is without having to manage the "coed question". 

 

At least with a separate program (coed Venturing 11-20) BSA would not pollute or dilute their existing flag ship program that is Boy Scouts.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Col. Flagg

[Eagledad 2777]

Barry, lol, I'm the least PC person I know!    Generally, if the masses are going one way, my instinct is to go the opposite.

 

I'm not advocating coed scouting because others are doing it, but because I think our scouts will benefit from it.

 

I'm too lazy to find quotes from past threads on this topic, but here are some common themes I recall in support of single-gender scouting:

 

- Girls mature faster and will outshine the boys, thus compounding the boys' already low confidence levels

- Girls will make already shy and awkward boys feel more shy and awkward

- Girls will dumb the program down

- Boys need a place to be boys

 

Are USA boys different than boys from other nations?  Are they fragile?   Do they really need single gender scouting?   Is it working here in the US? 

 

If the BSA is the place to solve these issues, it's a little late.  The all-male BSA ship sailed in the '80s when women were allowed to be ASMs and SMs. 

Ah, I see. Makes sense now. I don't agree, but it makes sense.

 

Barry

[desertrat77 1144]

Ah, I see. Makes sense now. I don't agree, but it makes sense.

 

Barry

Thanks for your patience, Barry! 

 

Sometimes I think I'm clear but then find out very quickly I'm in left field.  Just ask my wife. 

Edited June 23, 2017 by desertrat77

[desertrat77 1144]

LOL, I hear ya. But we have a society that cannot take saying "S**t" on TV like our more progressive cousins overseas do all the time, or showing of butts or breasts. So we Americans have MANY things that our British friends find repressed and odd, so what's wrong with one more thing (single-sex Scouting)?

 

 

 

Colonel Flagg, that sounds right and gave me a much needed laugh, thanks!

[CalicoPenn 729]

I continue to be concerned the the movements (we know who they are) that are pressing for change across society, and in particular organizations like BSA, don't apply the same pressure to other organizations (GSUSA).

 

 

I think I'm a fairly well-informed individual but I have to admit that I don't know who they are - care to enlighten us? 

 

They don't have to. They can retool Venturing and allow the girls to join at 11. Done. Boy Scouts stays Boy Scouts.

 

Venturing is a program for teens 14-21.  If you're going to open up Venturing to 11 year old girls, you will have to open it up to 11 year old boys.  Isn't that just Co-ed Boy Scouts?  I suppose its a solution to the issue of maintaining a single-sex program for some people but what about the other issues that folks have a concern about - seems to me an awful lot of folks were saying that summer camp facilities aren't set-up for co-ed Scouting and it would be very costly to set them up but if the BSA offers 11-21 Venturing, then won't a lot of those units want to utilize the summer camps? 

 

What happens to the high adventure aspect of Venturing - a lot of older Scouts join up with Venturing because they want more high adventure than their Troops are offering.  Do we split it up into Junior Venturing and Venturing?  Isn't that just another way of saying Boy Scouts and Venturing?

 

Is it a matter of name?  Boy Scouts?  40 years or so ago, the Boy Scouts of America started rebranding themselves as Scouting USA - it appeared at the time that the long rumored merger of the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts was going to take place and both programs would be replaced by Scouting USA.   The BSA still holds the trademark to the term Scouting USA, and they hold the trademark to the term Scouting.  I can easily see the Boy Scouts of America going co-ed and changing their market name to Scouting USA.  If it were to go co-ed, I would hope that the BSA would be wise enough to make co-ed scouting a chartering organization option - if an organization wants to sponsor a boys only Cub Scout and Boy Scout program, another a co-ed program, and another a girls only program, where is the harm to Scouting?  People will make their choices - let the market decide.  If you as a leader want to only work with a boy-only unit, you'll have that option - why should you care if the Troop down the street, or the Troop in the next campsite down at summer camp has girls?  Just about everything folks have mentioned as being a potential problem can be solved - the only thing I can think of that might be a real fear is that folks who want a single-sex program would have to compete for Scouts with another Troop in their town that is a co-ed group - and they might lose.

[CalicoPenn 729]

 

I was getting what's left of my hair cut last weekend.  To make conversation, the young lady asked what I was doing afterwards.  I told her I was headed to a scouting event.  She mentioned she was a single mom and was considering scouting for her young son because she wanted positive male role models in his life since dad wasn't in the picture.  There is value in men mentoring boys in an all-male environment where those young men can be themselves.

 

I understand this argument - but I have a couple of questions.  Are we to assume that single mothers of girls aren't also looking for places where their daughters can have positive male role models in their lives? 

 

Isn't there value in men mentoring boys in a co-ed environment where the boys learn how to respect and listen to members of the opposite sex?

 

Isn't there value in Scouts learning that the Scout Oath and Law applies just as much to their interactions with the opposite sex as it does to their interactions with their fellow Scouts?

 

I'm not suggesting that there is no value to single-sex environments, but isn't there a way we could do both and then be able to say "We are the best Youth organization for all youth - bar none"?

[Eagledad 2777]

 

Is it a matter of name?  Boy Scouts?  40 years or so ago, the Boy Scouts of America started rebranding themselves as Scouting USA - it appeared at the time that the long rumored merger of the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts was going to take place and both programs would be replaced by Scouting USA.   The BSA still holds the trademark to the term Scouting USA, and they hold the trademark to the term Scouting.  I can easily see the Boy Scouts of America going co-ed and changing their market name to Scouting USA.  If it were to go co-ed, I would hope that the BSA would be wise enough to make co-ed scouting a chartering organization option - if an organization wants to sponsor a boys only Cub Scout and Boy Scout program, another a co-ed program, and another a girls only program, where is the harm to Scouting?  People will make their choices - let the market decide.  If you as a leader want to only work with a boy-only unit, you'll have that option - why should you care if the Troop down the street, or the Troop in the next campsite down at summer camp has girls?  Just about everything folks have mentioned as being a potential problem can be solved - the only thing I can think of that might be a real fear is that folks who want a single-sex program would have to compete for Scouts with another Troop in their town that is a co-ed group - and they might lose.

Yes, you and NJ have been hanging on this reasoning all the way back to gays scout debates. My unbiased response is the program as a whole will have to change to accommodate the coed program. New documentation, training and unit activities of the whole troop program (I'm not even talking about cubs) will be created and designed with coed in mind. The boys only program will be forced to fit in the coed design and as a result will have to conform to the requirements of that program, whatever they turn out to be.

 

That doesn't appear like a big deal at first, but the BSA completely rewrote and issued new adult training courses as a result of introducing female troop leaders. 

 

Barry

Edited June 23, 2017 by Eagledad

[Eagledad 2777]

I'm not suggesting that there is no value to single-sex environments, but isn't there a way we could do both and then be able to say "We are the best Youth organization for all youth - bar none"?

And here we go, if this value in single-sex environments, then how can it be otherwise? 

 

I just don't see the logic when this kind of reasoning. Posters give examples over and over in these discussions of the advantages of single-sex environments compared to coed equivalent programs like schools. So how does going coed all of a sudden push the program into a super program?

 

I would much rather honesty in admitting that going coed will not be an improvement for the boys program, but will the program as a whole will fit better in your view of this culture. At least that is honest and who could argue.

 

Barry

[Col. Flagg 909]

Venturing is a program for teens 14-21.  If you're going to open up Venturing to 11 year old girls, you will have to open it up to 11 year old boys.  Isn't that just Co-ed Boy Scouts?  I suppose its a solution to the issue of maintaining a single-sex program for some people but what about the other issues that folks have a concern about - seems to me an awful lot of folks were saying that summer camp facilities aren't set-up for co-ed Scouting and it would be very costly to set them up but if the BSA offers 11-21 Venturing, then won't a lot of those units want to utilize the summer camps? 

 

 

If Venturing was used as a vehicle for a coed program, you'd obviously open it up to 11 year old boys. And no, it would not be "coed Boy Scouts". Venturing would a different program from Boy Scouts.

 

Maybe the revised Venturing program is not so summer camp, MB focused. Maybe the new Venturing program would provide other opportunities than summer camps.  

[CalicoPenn 729]

Yes, you and NJ have been hanging on this reasoning all the way back to gays scout debates. My unbiased response is the program as a whole will have to change to accommodate the coed program. New documentation, training and unit activities of the whole troop program (I'm not even talking about cubs) will be created and designed with coed in mind. The boys only program will be forced to fit in the coed design and as a result will have to conform to the requirements of that program, whatever they turn out to be.

 

That doesn't appear like a big deal at first, but the BSA completely rewrote and issued new adult training courses as a result of introducing female troop leaders. 

 

Barry

 

Ok - I see the point - but I don't quite buy it.  I don't see anyone saying the program has to change except the folks that are adamantly opposed to coed scouting.  Those of us who are accepting of the possibility of co-ed scouting have never said the program itself would have to change.  If one of the reasons girls want to join the Boy Scouts is for the camping and hiking and outdoor adventures, why would anyone want to then change the program which would make it unattractive to both boys and girls.  In what way would the program itself have to change?  Would units have to do more overnights in museums and cabins?  No one is suggesting that.  Offer a knitting merit badge?  No one is suggesting that (though there might very well be boys who would like that). Do folks think we would need to water down parts of the program? Whyy would we need to do that?  Do folks think we would need to change rank requirements?  Which ones do folks think we need to change? 

 

Don't confuse programming with logistics  - separate tents is easy to solve.  Using the latrines is easy to solve (and don't tell me that you would need to go to places with flush toilets because the girls won't use the latrines - I know a lot of boys that try to avoid the latrines as long as possible and would prefer flush toilets - any Scout - boy or girl - that can't handle latrines can stay home).  No one is suggesting that if girls join, a Troops 10 mile hike will have to be scaled down to 5-miles just because girls are part of the unit.  There is just no reason for anyone to have to change their actual program.  No one (other than those opposed) is suggesting that the program will need to be watered down.

 

As for the documentation - it's really not that difficult - YPT?  Take whatever is in YPT as it applies to co-ed Venturing units and apply down the line (btw, it already does apply - we're just not used to thinking about it in those terms).  There isn't a need for any big changes to YPT.

 

BSA Handbook, Patrol Leaders Handbook, Scoutmasters Handbook, Merit Badge Pamphlets - they may need to become gender neutral in language but they'll still work.  They can become gender neutral right now and they'll still work.  Heck - an awful lot of the documentation is already gender neutral. Look at the Scout Oath - it doesn't mention gender in it at all.  Scout Law?  It's "A Scout is Trustworthy" not "A Boy is Trustworthy".  If the Scoutmaster Handbook has a passage that reads something like "Your boys are your number one concern", it's very easy to change that to read "Your Scouts are your number one concern". 

 

I suspect that if the BSA is going to go co-ed, we're not going to be able to stop it - but we can, and should, make clear to the BSA that if girls do join, they join the BSA with the program as is - and that units will not look kindly on the BSA trying to tweak the program itself. 

Edited June 23, 2017 by CalicoPenn

[Col. Flagg 909]

"Easy to solve" and BSA don't go together in the same paragraph.

 

BSA never plans well and anything that will go wrong, does.