Advancement SMC

[Hershey]

Just want to vent....

 

My son has been ready to advance to Life Scout since last May. He finished all the requirements except for his SMC and BOR. 

 

Our troop has boys for this rank demonstrate Scout Spirit by creating some kind of presentation to present to the Troop. Our SM suggested he complete one to present about the High Adventure camp he was attending this past summer. My son said ok. 

 

At the first meeting back after summer, he presented it and then requested a SMC. It was a little hard to arrange and he ultimately ended up scheduling it with an ASM this week (about two weeks after initial request). The ASM would not sign off on it because he did not successfully show how to tie a particular knot.

 

Does this seem unreasonable to you? The ASM did offer to review the knot with him and sign off later this weekend on a camp out, which is a good compromise, but I am wrong to feel he is being unnecessarily delayed in advancing?

 

 

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

Welcome to the forum!

 

Both of the things you mention represent "adding to the requirements" and therefore are not permitted by the Guide to Advancement. (I don't have the page number handy.)

 

In practical terms, of course, sometimes going with the flow is easier than being "right." My guess is these are not the only examples of "adding to the requirements" in your troop. If I am right, this is a general problem that needs to be addressed. Your son has a much more immediate issue to deal with: Is it better to rock the boat, or just tie the knot? (I am not necessarily expressing a preference, just identifying the issue.)

[qwazse]

... Does this seem unreasonable to you? The ASM did offer to review the knot with him and sign off later this weekend on a camp out, which is a good compromise, but I am wrong to feel he is being unnecessarily delayed in advancing?

 

How wrong it is depends on how wrong your son thinks it is to not remember a knot while wearing a badge with that cute little motto on that smile-shaped ribbon.

 

The ASM may have noticed the signature on that requirement of someone who had been letting boys skate by without solid mastery of skills. Was the knot from the 1st class requirements, or from a merit badge the boy earned.

 

If the SMC was held adjacent a pool and a land navigation course, your son may want to ask himself if he could demonstrate the other 1st class requirements when they would be needed the most.

 

We need to take the focus off the ASM and ask ourselves, "Is this helping the boy grow?"

[JosephMD]

​A special task to show scout spirit, that's a new one on me.  You really should show scout spirit all the time.  I'm not a scoutmaster, but it should be obvious if a scout is demonstrating scout spirit by living the scout oath and law, and if he wasn't, he shouldn't have to wait for a scoutmaster conference to find out.  I could imagine in the worst case scenario that I'd suggest that he work on living the scout oath and law and come back in a couple of weeks for the sign off.  Remember, the SMC and Scout Spirt requirements are not linked.  As far as tests during the SMC, well, that really isn't in the requirements either.  Perhaps the SM can decertify whoever is signing off on requirements that haven't been met, but really, once it is signed off, it is signed off, and better handled with a conversation than a denial.

[fred johnson]

The title ... "Advancement SMC" ... there is no such thing as an advancement SMC.  It's just a scoutmaster conference.  Just a conversation.  Friendly. 

 

I'm harping on the title as it can create the view that the scoutmaster has to bless advancement.  He doesn't.  That's not his job at that point.  

 

The requirement exists to make sure the scoutmasters and the scouts are regularly talking to each other.  That's it.  No retest.  No quiz.  No extra work.  Just a friendly sit down and chat.  No need to even schedule it.  

 

Similar for scout spirit.  It exists so the scouts and scoutmaster can talk about it.  That's it.  

 

Sounds like people are looking to create work and put their own twist on making scouts earn their Eagle.

[DadScouts]

I don't see any real delays here.  1-2 weeks for a Life SMC I suspect is the norm, except small Troops that might handle on demand.  2 weeks for your son but SM saw the delay and had an ASM step in for him to avoid further delays.  All good.  ASM likely isn't that well versed and asked a knot question for Life.  Certainly odd.  However, the ASM offered to ASSIST your son AND sign off on it this weekend.  The delay may not be kosher but a handful of days is a handful of days.  If he couldn't explain the knot that he demonstrated for the EDGE method requirement that could be the reason.

 

The presentation to demonstrate Scout Spirit is one I have never heard of.  Yes, units cannot add to the requirements but I do not believe in "throw away" requirements and this one just about is for all ranks since few or none know what it means and if they do no one can articulate how to apply it in a practical quantitative way per GTA.  Likely going too far but no one here can comment since none of us know the context.  It's intriguing to say the least. 

 

Hopefully your son benefitted from his presentation and learning the knot and will enjoy his Life BOR. 

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm...

 

Welcome @@Hershey.   Thanks for supportin' your son and his scouting program.

 

Is there some rush in da family for gettin' advancement on a schedule?   Sometimes lads are tryin' to beat an older brother's time-to-rank or somethin' similar.   Is he gettin' really close to 17.5 years old?

 

Seems like he's comin' along just fine.   We're tryin' to teach life lessons in Scouting, eh?  One of the life lessons that I think is a good one is that yeh learn things for more than just a test.  Yeh learn 'em because yeh might need to actually know them.    If spendin' a few extra days re-learning a knot helps teach your son that lesson before you pay a lot of $$$ for college, then I reckon it's a few days well spent.

 

I wouldn't be concerned.  What you're goin' to find next on the road to Eagle is that there are a lot of hoops and paperwork and delays while registrars process forms and district people meet and such.  A wise troop introduces a little bit of that at Star and Life to help the boy Be Prepared.

 

Beavah

[CalicoPenn]

Hershey,

 

Welcome to the forum,

 

 

I don't see any real delays here.  1-2 weeks for a Life SMC I suspect is the norm, except small Troops that might handle on demand. 

It's not 1-2 weeks of delay - it's now September, his son has been ready since May - that's 4 months - and that is unreasonable.  His SMC and BOR should have been done in May - there is no excuse for not getting it done.

 

Hershey,

 

Your son is in a Troop that is doing it wrong - they have strayed from True North.  Requiring a presentation to show Scout Spirit is not part of the requirements - that is this Troop and it's adult leaders playing the "we know better than National and 100+ years of their experience" game.   As for the ASM refusing to sign off on the SMC because your son couldn't tie a knot?  He needs to be re-trained - by people who actually understand and know and follow the Boy Scout program.  A SM Conference is just that - a meeting - it's a chance for the SM to sit with each boy individually and chat - see how things are going, find out about the lad's experience in the Troop - the good and the bad.  It is NOT a time for someone to "retest" a Scout on his skills.  More to the point - an SMC can NOT be failed - the SM (or his ASM designee) sits down and chats with the Scout and that's it - the SMC is done  - it gets signed off on - right then and there - no retesting, no failing.  It doesn't even have to be some formal meeting (and in fact, I really hate the idea of "scheduling an appointment" for an SMC - they don't have to take long and can (and should be) quite informal.  A really good SM will already know who needs an SMC and will take whatever opportunity he can.  On a 10-mile hike with the lads?  There is nothing preventing a Scoutmaster from chatting with a Scout needing an SMC for a bit during the hike and calling it done.  Heck, I knew a Scoutmaster who would sometimes, usually with older Scouts he had known for a while, and for ranks like Star and Life, ask a Scout how things were going, getting the "Everything's just great" answer, and calling that 30-second interaction a SMC (I wouldn't recommend taking it that minimal, but yes, that counts too).

 

The question is what to do about it?  First, understand that it's unlikely you can change this Troop - unless you become the Scoutmaster, the Committee Chair, the Chartered Org Rep or are the head of the chartered organization, all you can really do is complain - and these leaders may or may not listen to you.  So the first thing I would do is ask your son what he wants to do.  Unless this Troop is so far off True North that it poses a danger to your son, I think your son needs to have a major say in what the next step is.  If your son decides to stay with this Troop and strive for Eagle, once he has his Life rank, he should sit down with the Scoutmaster, with the requirements for Eagle Scout in front of them both, and ask point-by-point what the Scoutmaster's/Troop's expectations are for each step along the way.  Hopefully this will prevent any surprises (like some obscure Troop requirement that your son gives a presentation to a Court-of-Honor about his Eagle Scout project) and will help you all decide whether you can continue to live with this Troop's quirks.

[gumbymaster]

I am not defending the practice, but let me play devils advocate for a moment.

 

SM: "Johnny, could you help the troop by doing a presentation on your recent visit to the high adventure troop?"

Johnny: "No"

SM: (thinks to self) there is a lack of scout spirit here.

 

Moving a little closer to a grey area ...

"It is our expectation that the older scouts will do presentations for the younger scouts." 

It is not technically a requirement, but if an older scout is unwilling to do things to help their troop - whatever those things are, Scout Spirit could be called into question.

 

Sometimes it's how we phrase and think of things, not the things themselves. 

 

I am fully on-board with not adding to or subtracting from the requirements.  I'm not a big fan of do not retest - but I accept that that is our current advancement policy; so I would think failing the SMC over tying a knot is beyond the permissible.

 

As for just doing it or not.  Objectively, neither request would be unreasonable if it were not tied to advancement, so it is worth fighting over ... probably not.

 

But as I was going over my response here, I began to think ... do we ever encourage our SCOUTS to read the guide to advancement.  Their handbook will tell them the tasks and skills to achieve; but not the standard to which they are (or should be judged).

 

When I submit a proposal to the government, the RFP package has a whole section on the evaluation criteria, and I would be a fool to submit a proposal without having read that section and address those points.  Yet each time we send a Scout to their SMC or BoR, they probably have no idea what the expectations for that meeting (for either side) should be.

Edited September 9, 2016 by gumbymaster

[fred johnson]

... failing the SMC ...

 

I agree with others about deciding if you want to pick a fight over this or just roll with the punches because your son is having a good experience in the troop.   With that said ...

 

You can't fail a SMC.  It's a conversation.  No pass.  No fail.  The requirement is complete when it happened.  

 

Scout spirit ?   I strongly encourage reading the section in the GTA on scout spirit, GTA section 4.2.3.2.   http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf  Scout spirit is about how you lead your life and treat others.  It's not about a presentation.  

[Hershey]

Thank you for your input here. Good to hear other perspectives. He completed the SMC and BOR this week. 

[SSScout]

SMC is as has been described above.  No pass, no fail. 

That said, if the Scout needs a skill at any given time (tie a knot, keep tent up in a storm), it might be good to "PRACTICE " that skill every so often.  SPL might be encouraged to hold a knot tying Patrol competition . Make it a game.  Patrols earn some bragging rights.

 

One game I have seen:   Scouts pair off.  Each pair hold one pair of hands, (Tom's right hand holds Jeff's  left hand ), then with their free hands, they do the knots!  Cooperation?   hoo hoo....