Spinoff Re: "homosexual behavior is automatically disqualifying"

[Trevorum 24]

Joni, as Merlyn suggests, each such case is probably decided locally based on the individual boy, his adult leadership and the CO. As Gern implies, there is a continuum of behaviors which may or may not indicate gender orientation. I suspect many HS-age fellows who are not yet out are awarded their Eagle (though perhaps not as many as a decade ago) because those involved tacitly agree not to formally acknowledge the issue. I personally know of one such case. I also know Scouters who would cheerfully engage in witch-hunts.

[John-in-KC 311]

Joni,

 

What you are asking is exceptionally sensitive, and has potential for lots of hurt.

 

If it were my Troop, I'd obtain a local Pastor I could trust... someone who has exceptional skills in discernment, and who has seen most of it at least once before.

 

Next, I'd contact my District Commissioner. Yes, in this case, I'd bypass the UC. Keep the loop as small as you possibly can. Further, I'd bring my COR into the loop. That's a total of five folk, including SM and CC.

 

I'd have a very informal BOR with the young man, SM, CC, DC, Pastor and COR. Nobody in Scouting clothes. The uniform would be a hindrance here, not a help. Do this offsite from the meeting area, things are going to be difficult enough, we need barriers lowered, not raised.

 

This is not a time for confrontation, this is a time to figure out where the young man's head is at. At one extreme, he is sexually active with his own gender, and busting YP guidelines to boot. At the other, someone is telling stories on him. Both are possible.

 

I'd let the DC decide what point the matter needs elevation to the Professional Service. If the young man lets loose that he's committing statutory rape (what was the old adage, 16 gets you 20?) with either gender, there's a problem.

 

Once again, this is hugely sensitive and may end up derailing the young mans entire life. Tread softly and carefully here, make haste slowly!!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[evmori 11]

Avowed or non-avowed homosexual = no longer a member.

[Joni4TA 10]

Unfortunately there is more than one way the Scout was "outted."

 

His MySpace page declares his orientation gleefully, talks about escapades he''s been involved in as well as group sex, etc. The website was stumbled upon by a member of our Troop committee who was told by their Scout son to "just look him up on MySpace" (Our Troop maintains a website at MySpace for recruitment - the Committee member is the webmaster who runs it) to get his email address to send them photos from a recent Scout event. The Parent/Committee member backed out of the MySpace page as soon as they saw all the "gay stuff" on it (yes I have seen the page, it''s unmistakeably male-male conducive), and did not try to contact the Scout about the photos through MySpace messaging. They instead waited til the next troop meeting and asked the boy simply for his email address instead.

 

 

A female Scouter from outside our Troop apparently had gained this Boy''s confidence - the Boy revealed personal information to her, and then this Scouter turned around and betrayed that very same confidence with the boy by running straight to our Committee Chair and reporting the Scout''s conversations with her and what she knew about his sexual orientation to the Unit Commissioner and our Troop Committee Chair.

 

 

In both instances, it''s a slippery slope, granted partly heresay - if I adopted the "Dont Ask Dont Tell" policy of the Military, this would not be in question. It would simply be ignored, yet we would keep a watchful eye about Scouting events to make sure there was no hanky-panky kind of stuff going on, and no conversations about sex or sexuality - PERIOD, gay or hetero.

 

The stumbling on the MySpace page technically proves nothing - I can say I am the owner and sole operator of the Best Little Whorehouse in Texas on the internet - IF I WANT TO - it doesn''t make it TRUE!

 

Whatever a Boy Scout reveals to a Scouter, however - is probably not deniable. Though there are some issues with this Scouter''s motivations and intentions, her information does appear to have some validity. In addition, this female Scouter is a "MySpace friend" to the Scout as well. The Scouter claims the Scout told her about "experimentation" that was happening at a campout and that the boy is or was dating another Scout! Again, this could all be heresay - I am considering the source, and the source is a whack job and a half!!!!

 

None of our Troop Committee wants to talk to the Boy Scout in question directly about this at this time. In my case, I believe he will tell me "the truth" about his sexual orientation (that I feel I know, that my son has told me he knows, that another Scout has confirmed to me that he knows) and in doing so, seal his fate with Scouting.

 

In addition, apparently at a recent campout there was some silly discussion about the boys calling each other "gay"... not like homosexual but the kind of "Dude, you are so gay" comment teenagers make - replace the word "gay" with "stupid" or "dumb" or something like that and you''ll get the general idea I am trying to convey. The Scout in question allegedly replied, "Why yes as a matter of fact I am" or something to that effect. A younger (12yr old) Scout ended up calling his mother from the campout, wanting to know what "gay" meant since one of the Scouts was saying he was. The mother asked to speak with the younger boy''s grandfather (who was present at the campout and is our acting Unit Commissioner/Asst. Scoutmaster) and the grandfather got an earful.. "What are "those people" teaching my son out there!?!?! What''s going on!?!?!" etc.

 

I don''t know.... if you would have told me 10 years ago that I would be faced with having to think about something like this in the BSA, I would have told you, you were nuts! Yet here I am...

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Ed, help me here, unavowed as well? When did that happen, I thought I read all the memos...

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Joni,

 

Ok, its on MySpace, so it may not be true, but you can bet more than a few of your scouts also know its on MySpace and are waiting to see what happens. There is nobody in the troop who can take the boy aside and ask what''s up with his MySpace page? At this point you are working to dispell a rumor, then what happens next is up to the scout. He may be gay, he may be vying for attention and this is the way he is seeking it. Either way putting it on MySpace opens the door to ask about it. Maybe its not his, and is a spoof seeking to wreck his life, letting him know about it is a good thing. If he says he is gay and sexually active, that is another kettle of fish. Either way ignoring is not an option, a calm measured question and response is warranted not only for the scout, but for scouting in your community

[evmori 11]

You didn''t miss a memo.

[Joni4TA 10]

Well that was my belief as well - if you''re gay, you are not a part of the BSA - PERIOD!

 

Then I come across this policy... and it clearly says, and ALL IT SAYS is,

 

--------------------------------------------

"In the unlikely event that an older boy were to hold himself out as homosexual, he would not be able to continue in a youth leadership position."

 

--------------------------------------------

 

It doesn''t say "removed from Scouting" like the policy about Employment and Adult Leadership with the BSA states.

 

Why would the BSA leave it ambiguous? What are their intentions here? Is the Boy out of Scouts completely or just out of a Youth Leadership position????????

 

That was my original question - to which no one of us can seem to come up with an answer.

[prairie 10]

The internet is rather public, I don''t even have any illusions my email is privite. If the page is his doing he outed himself. Sad for him but feel worse for all those who trusted him this far only to find themselves is an awful mess.

 

The snitching Scouter might have done the right thing, been much better if she could have convinced the young man to fess up instead.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, hmmm...

 

First, there is a difference between the BSA policy on homosexuals as adult leaders and the BSA''s position on youth member homosexuals. Da latter is "nuanced" and involves more flexibility by the Chartered Partner, responsiveness to counseling, and a whole mess of other things. There are plenty of boys who for various get-attention reasons declare themselves to be homo who later grow up, get married to a lovely woman, and have plenty of kids as avowed heteros.

 

So interpret the BSA policy toward "avowed" kids to be one of balancing understanding and compassion against example and public perception.

 

The BSA will support a CO in removing a boy for being gay.

 

The BSA will take no action independent of the CO on a boy who declares himself gay provided that there isn''t a public shouting match, a perception of endorsement of that lifestyle by the unit, or a youth protection issue. There''s room for good people to work with a kid. But there''s not room for a kid and his family to become public advocates for homosexuality in scouting, or for holding up a gay boy scout as an example of what we value to other boys. Hence the obscure "leadership position" stuff.

 

So Joni, there''s room for good people in your unit to work with this boy.... as long as it doesn''t become a public issue for other parents or the BSA, and as long as the unit is clear about not endorsing that lifestyle by holding this lad up as an example to other boys. Certainly, I would hope that some caring adult who got along with the lad would have some conversations with him about the MySpace stuff, the same as we would about any unhealthy risk-taking behavior by one of the kids we cared about.

 

That''s my insight and info anyway. Good luck with it.

 

Beavah

 

[GernBlansten 10]

That scouter who betrayed his confidence should revisit the scout law. A scout is trustworthy and loyal.

 

My biggest problem with the story so far is that he is probably sexually active. Hetero or Homo, its the sexual part that makes this a problem. If you are a virgin, you are asexual, neither homo or hetero, just non-sexual. Once you become sexually active then the labels fit better because there is little doubt which way he swings. I think that is why BSA wrote such a poorly worded opinion on youth homosexuality. They expect scouts to not engage in sexual activity. Period. At least I hope so.

 

Is sexual behavior automatically disqualifying?

[Trevorum 24]

Joni, I misunderstood and thought your original question was hypothetical. However, Beavah has hit the nail on the head. His advice is excellent (as usual).

 

(This message has been edited by Trevorum)

[scoutldr 726]

"Is sexual behavior automatically disqualifying?"

 

I am here to say "no". I have related the story of a young man who proudly admitted to the EBOR that he had fathered a child out of wedlock (which of course brought up the "morally straight" question). He appealed to District and was awarded the Eagle. Many on this forum had no problem with that. So, fornication with a girl is ok...fornication with other boys is not.

 

I think the answer is to present the issue to your CO. They own the unit. If they choose to pursue it, it''s between them, the boy and the BSA. The BSA and the CO establish criteria for membership via the charter contract...not the individual unit leadership. If he has posted such a web page, even if it''s not true, it is un-scoutlike behavior that should not go unanswered.

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Lets not make the jump because some accept fornication then its OK

 

Lets also understand that as an organization run by volunteers, we have lots of variety on how things get done (much to my dismay)

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Sexual activity can''t be a disqualifying factor, since older scouts are old enough to get married (as OGE alluded to). Do you assume a married scout stays a virgin?

 

I think it would be even more interesting if a scout in Massachusetts entered into a same-sex marriage (as they could with parental consent under 18). Is he avowedly gay?