Patrol Camping and outings

[ScoutBox]

Scouters,

 

We have just made a Change of SM within our Troop. Since this change we are finnally involving the ASM into the discussion of what's going on.. this has been well received by all of us ASMs. Anyway, the former SM didn't play much of a role within the troop. So now we are trying to sort through the mess, so to say. One issue is Patrol Camping and Outings. Can anyone point me into the direction to answer what the rules are for Patrol Activities. Just an example of what we are facing.

 

We have a patrol that wants to go camping. But at the PL's house in his back yard. He want's to show some videos in his house with his parents home, and then camp out int eh back yard. This plan doesn't sit well with any of the ASMs and the SM.

 

We believe first that it's great they want to go camping. But the lack of trained ASMs and YPT by the boys' parents is the first problem.

 

Next, which is our first requirement for any activity with the troop outing is, IS it a Scouting type event?

 

Then of course the mother was asking about liability..

 

Of course there are other issues. But the idea is to find some concrete information about the subject.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

SB

[moosetracker]

I am sure someone will copy/paste the exact G2SS wording on the issue, but up to about a month ago, a patrol camping on their own was fine. Recent change is that a patrol can do day activities, but not overnight activities on their own.. That lead to a discussion of how close the leadership had to be..

 

I know that unless pack family camping was very active and all the Webelos were in attendance to those, then backyard tenting is encouraged for Webelos cub scouts as their first outing to shake out the problems of not packing right, or having the cutsie kiddie sleeping bag which will keep you warm in an 65 degree house only..

 

I don't think it is against rules that boys scouts do backyard tenting, just isn't encouraged.. But, then what is a backyard? We have an uncle who just bought a mansion up on a hill with at least 100 acres of forest around him.. I said to my husband, can we take the boys camping in his backyard (Several states away though, so it would be rare we could do so). Someone owning a home with 5+ acres of wooded lands, could run a respectable backyard camping trip for boy scouts too..

 

A month ago I would not have sweated an urban backyard with a patrol though, even if the patrol is not cohesive and working as a well oiled patrol, as this may have created some much needed bonding for the patrol to start acting like a team. But, for the type of overnights a patrol was known to do.. I would have said to work with your new SM & your whole troop as it sounded like your troop has a lot of work to repair the damage of a not so good exiting SM, so chances are your patrols need alot of work, in order to get them functioning to the point that sending them off into the woods on their own with no adult supervision, would be viewed as responsible..

 

Now since you can not do patrol overnight, your work is to get your patrols to function well enough to do day hikes and bike rides without it raising concern with the adults, or for them to be able to camp yards away from the adult leadership.

[Stosh]

Back when I was a kid....

 

We were allowed to independently do patrol outings without adult leadership. All we needed to do was get SM approval. If that wasn't forthcoming, we simply asked our parents and then went anyway. We didn't wear out BSA uniforms, we didn't get credit for the camp out, but we had fun anyway. With support of our parents and hassle from the adult BSA leadership, we all eventually, as a patrol, quit scouting.

 

We continued to camp together all the way trough high school, eventually breaking up when we all went off our separate ways after graduation.

 

There might be a lesson or two nestled in this.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[Beavah]

Yah, Scoutbox, my question would be "Why exactly do yeh feel uncomfortable?" I think yeh need to think deeply on this.

 

The patrol activity the lads are proposing is pretty lightweight, eh? Stay over at a friend's house and sleep out for the night. There are many troops I know where that would be considered a cub scout activity, far too easy for a Boy Scout patrol. Since the lads wouldn't consider such an easy thing worthy of a patrol activity, they'd never ask permission. They stay over at each other's houses all the time, eh? Yeh don't need the SM's permission for that!

 

So this strikes me as a very easy "outing" for boys, with adequate adult presence. But more importantly, any self-respecting teenage boy that you tried to say "no" to would just organize it on his own, because he doesn't need your permission to sleep over with just his patrol mates and friends. And while yeh might get one parent in a dozen who worries about "liability" or some such inanity, the boys will immediately cut such a looney toon out of da equation and just go over to the house of a boy with normal parents.

 

Which brings me back to my original question, eh? Why doesn't this sit well with the adult leadership? Is there somethin' else goin' on that you're not sharing? Yeh really don't trust the parents involved and think they are bad role models or worse? This is a patrol of really poorly behaved boys who need direct, hands-on supervision and yeh worry that they'll be smoking weed out in da backyard? If there's somethin' like that in the equation, then I think yeh need to address that more directly, eh? Not generically prohibit a pretty ordinary-sounding event.

 

(Edited to add)

I noticed that your location is in Switzerland, eh? The last thing yeh should be aware of is that generally speakin', European sensibilities on this sort of stuff don't match us Americans. They have yet to become the hyper-protective, legalistic, incredibly fearful people we have become, eh? So real patrol outings and kids playing all day without direct hands-on adult supervision are normal over there, much as they were in America when I was a lad. Is there a culture-clash issue goin' on here? In which case, I'd say it's healthier for you to adopt da local culture .

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

 

This is the key issue in Scoutbox's post, in my opinion.

 

 

The task of the adult leaders is to deal with the rest of the post, which is about adult issues, so that the Scouts can do what Scout should be able to do.

[ScoutBox]

Bravah, I think that the problem is that this is the first Patrol activity that the boys have come up with that' snot camping. Sure they're staying over at someone's house, but the parents don't have YPT. And the G2SS says that any over night camping needs to have two adults trained in YPT. I just don't want to have any problems with this. We want to do this right. But we also want the Patrol Activities to be Scout related. I don't see a big problem with these boys getting together. and I do trust the PL, and the boys involved, in fact one of them will be my son. Her's the APL for this Patrol. My reason about fro this thread was to see the guidence for this kind of activity. I just wanted to see if this was an OK activity for a patrol to have a sleep over camp out int he back yard with just the boys parents on location. We are pushing Patrol Activities, but this one was not what we expected. We though they might want to go camping.. in the woods??

[qwazse]

Massive ditto on what SP just said!

 

The SM has bottom line in this. But, if the boys have a good plan, support it!

 

THEY ACTUALLY ASKED PERMISSION. Like JB said they are according the troop a very high level of respect.

 

This might be a good excuse to get those parents trained. Is there a reason why they haven't taken YPT?

 

If I were so fortunate, I would have the PL file a tour plan with him as tour leader and the APL as assistant tour leader. Push that through council.

[OldGreyEagle]

I don't want to trivialize this, but its "Youth Protection Training", not that Youth Protection Training is not important, it is, but its offered on the net and you don't need to be registered to take it. If the parents have agreed to host the outing (such as it is), then have them take YOuth Protection.

 

[Eagle92]

While this may not be consdiered "camping" for most, if the patrol wants it, let them do it. It may be a good learning expereince, or team building expereince.

 

Now here is what the G2SS says:

 

Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders, or

one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout

or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or

older, are required for all trips and outings...Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activitieseven those including parent and childrequire male and female adult leaders, both of

whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA.

 

Notice it did not say both adults have to be leaders, nor did is specifyu what positions can go camping. A MBC is a registered leader, a committee member is a registered leader, etc.

 

So if one parent is registered as a volunteer in any capacity, and has taken YPT online, you are good to go.

[shortridge]

Minus the videos and adding an adult sleeping in his own tent, this is more or less what my Webelos den did when I was 8. Trust your Scouts. Register and train one of the parents, and you're good to go.

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

YPT can be done online in 20 mins, if the issue is someone not having YPT, why not just take the training?

[ScoutBox]

OK. YPT will be OK. I just wanted to find out what the rules were for this type of activity. I wanted to see what other unit leaders added to activities.

 

We want the activity to be:

 

Safe

Scouting

Something that helps to bring the Patrol together

Fun

 

Again, I was looking for ideas of what other units use as a goal, or demand what a Troop /Patrol activity must be..

 

 

[Gary_Miller]

Lots of posters have eluded to this not being a scout like activity, because they are camping in someones back yard and spending time watching videos.

 

I disagree I think anytime a patrol or troop gets together as a group and does something is a scout activity. It does not have to always involve being away from home or being out in the woods for the youth to have a good bonding experience.

 

 

[shortridge]

Lots of posters have eluded to this not being a scout like activity, because they are camping in someones back yard and spending time watching videos.

 

Actually, no one has said this.

 

I and others have pointed out that a back-yard campout is something Webelos might do, compared to a Boy Scout patrol, but no one's said it's not a Scout-like activity.

[moosetracker]

Oh, ScoutBox - Your original post lead me to believe you were more fearful of letting them do something without adaquate adult leadership. -- We believe first that it's great they want to go camping. But the lack of trained ASMs and YPT by the boys' parents is the first problem.

 

Also that you were just patching up the troop from poor leadership. Therefore these scouts needed some mild bonding expieriences before they did more adventurous patrol activites.. -- the former SM didn't play much of a role within the troop. So now we are trying to sort through the mess, so to say. One issue is Patrol Camping and Outings

 

So hopefully I did not mis-inturpret what you were asking.

 

If your patrols have to redefine a cohesive well run patrol through bonding activities, then, all I was trying to say is that even though it is mild, let them do things like this to get the bonding going. My only concern was the changes that make overnights not allowed for patrol events.

 

But, if you can put the leadership a few yards away in a house, it should be ok.. If your objection is you think it is too much for them, then I would say it is tame enough, and not to worry.. But, your last post kind of made it sound like your objections is that you think it is not challenging enough.. If your patrols have been doing patrol activities for a long time, and are a well run group, maybe it is too light.. But so what?.. If they need to get the time to become a well running group, then it is a great way to bond, even if the activity is light, and will be beneficial for them in many ways..

 

I vote to let them have their outing.