Is this Eagle Canidate Worthy...Interrogation during EBOR?

[mmhardy]

After just sitting on my sixth Eagle Board of Review Im noticing a facet that Im kind of surprised about. There seems to be a view by some that passing the requirements of Eagle is somehow not enough. Im also hearing concerns about how the young man achieved the requirements and if this Eagle candidate ranks an A, B, C, etc. I also see eyebrows raised if the lad went to one of those Council concentrated merit badge camps as opposed to knocking off the badges one at a time. Ive also seen practically an IRS audit take place of the boys Eagle project binder with calculators humming on the number of hours he recorded. The kid was in tears at one point! The District advancement chair tactfully told the inquisitors to knock it off. Which I was thankful.

 

Being an Eagle myself I have little use for such nonsense. Im my view the program is pretty black and white; either you achieve the requirements or not. Is giving the candidate the 8th degree common? Have you seen this aspect in your own EBOR experience? How do you handle it?

 

[Eagle92]

When I first came into my current district, yes it was. they had an "Eagle kit" used at EBORs that contained FA supplies, rope, sticks, etc. And they did an exam type EBOR. That has changed in the past 11 years. HOWEVER one unit until recently had a "pre" EBOR done by the CC and Adv. chair that reviewed those KSAs from Scout to Eagle, and would not sign off the application for his EBOR until he passed that.

 

I also think that the exam is 'Mickey Mouse." You can get the same information asking questions about his experiences and how he used those KSAs in his life.

 

Also I don't like the ideas of "success/fail" projects. the key to the project is whether the scout planned, organized and executed a service project that demonstrated leadership. Good friend of mine did that, but his project was a "failure" becasue when he went back and all the hard work he and his volunteers did was for naught. The conservation project he did, using US Forestry Service guidelines and specs did not work as planned. Critters got to his trees thatthe USFS spec guards he built did not protect the saplings he planted.

[eagle90]

I am constantly surprised on these boards how many roadblocks adults can put in front of a young man. I think it is either "I'm an Eagle and no one else is as good as me" or "I wasn't an Eagle, so you're not going to be either." Sure there are some young men who are "better" Eagles (and I hate using that term, but my mind is blank as to an alternative) than others, but I am always thrilled when one of my scouts earns this award and I get to present it to him.

[Beavah]

Yah, to be honest, the nitpicky stuff at EBORs drives me crazy, too. I suppose it gets boys ready for dealin' with their first IRS audit, but I'm not convinced dat's the sort of "citizenship" we want 'em prepared for.

 

At the same time, I confess I don't much care for 15-minute "How do you feel about life?" EBOR's either. I think if a lad has put a lot of work into a project, and many years of his life into a program, that you honor that by giving him a thorough review. That's a way for adults to show that they care about him and the quality of work he's done. Imagine what any of us would feel like if we just completed a major project, worked long hours to get da final financial and summary report done, and our boss only said "That's nice."

 

So I think all things in balance, eh? Seems to me a unit might be concerned if their boys were doin' all their merit badges at badge mill camps. That might be somethin' that makes for a good discussion among unit committee members on a board, and a committee pushin' the SM and boys back toward somethin' closer to da BSA program policy. Seems like a unit is completely overboard if they're "ranking" candidates. I've got no problem with a board that's interested in how (and how well) a lad did in completing his requirements, and whether they were a challenge for him. Sometimes yeh find they got pencil-whipped or he didn't learn much, and that's somethin' to address. I also don't find a problem with a board that questions a lad about poor grammar or writin'. Just part of helpin' him learn that working on such things is important. But I do get annoyed when either of those things becomes a page-by-page, line-by line critique or re-examination.

 

My experience is these things go in cycles in a lot of units and districts, eh? They drift a bit far one way and then get pushed back. Overall, though, I gotta agree that da paperwork and review process for Eagle has gotten out of hand. I reckon it should be da next step after Life Scout, not an additional mountain.

 

Beavah

 

[ntrog8r]

Beavah, Well said as always.

 

I don't care for the "Keepers of the Flame" concept. Eagle is what you become - not what you are presented by a board of adults based on forms and paperwork. Nothing galls me more than seeing adults decide a young man's fate, so to speak, by trying to tear apart his paperwork. If there are questions about the paperwork, get them answered outside of the EBOR and outside the hearing of the Scout. If there is a problem within the district of Scouts showing up wihtout the development of achieving Eagle, address that at the units, roundtables, advancement committee, etc. Why are we waiting until a Scout demonstrates the courage and resolve to stand before a board to address the failings of adults? Now, I am all for "hard" questions at an EBOR: What are the three skills you believe will be most helpful to you in the next four years, How do you expect to serve the community in the future, What POR allowed you to make the most impact and how, what impact have you had in the life of another Scout, what adult leader has had the greatest impact on you - why/how, what aspect of the Scouting program would you change, etc. Questions that focus on development, character, lessons learned, inculcation of Scout values, etc. are the "hard" questions for an EBOR (IMO), not a review of whether or not the Scout and every adult reviewer of the application got something right.

 

Another pet peeve, religious interrogation. What do you mean you haven't attended church services in the past few months, do you really think that is living up to the Scout Law? MAYBE an acceptable question would be, "How do you demonstrate reverance in your life outside of organized worship activities?", or "What are the requirements/expectations of your (organized religion) and how do you incorporate them into your life?" Keeping in mind the Scout's religious practices are NOT what is being questioned but HOW he lives "A Scout is Reverent."

 

I think EVERY BoR should be another positive, mentoring, life-building experience for the young man, not a chance to prove he doesn't deserve it. Again, if there are legitimate questions about the application and the Scout's performance, address this BEFORE the EBoR with the unit, et al.(This message has been edited by ntrog8r)

[packsaddle]

This is the reason I have taken the unofficial position of Eagle coordinator. In addition to making sure the boys have the correct version of forms and understand the deadlines and process, I try to get a feel for what the boy can expect to confront at the EBOR. So far, when I've been able to attend (but not participate) there have been no problems. The only incidents that have occurred in which there were some prejudice or interrogation problems were before I took this on or one time when I was not able to attend the EBOR.

In the former cases I acted as the 'victim advocate' and managed to minimize the damage that the adults might have done. In the latter case, the boy passed anyway and I now know I just need to be there every time.

[evmori]

When I was a Scoutmaster, I told every Scout who was going for his EBOR to "expect hot lights and bamboo shoots under the fingernails". I knew this would never happen but my purpose was to let them know this isn't a walk in the park. They needed to know their stuff and they needed to know how to explain things to adults.

 

When I sat on EBOR's I listened more than I asked. And listening usually provoked some really good questions.

[eghiglie]

Bevah made some great comments.

 

The recent form change was a good example in my district. All the boys who had the old forms, even with signatures, were told to get the new form and get the signatures redone.

 

 

[BadenP]

The sole purpose of an EBOR is to make sure all the t's are crossed and the i's are dotted so that his application gets through National without a hitch. Re examination and interrogation of the candidate is not only inappropriate it is against National BSA policy. If his book, etc. are all signed off it is not in the purvue of the EBOR to re determine whether or not he passed all his requirements, that has already been done. The questions asked should be about the experiences he had in scouting and what they meant to him, and not whether or not he has scout spirit, that should be apparent, or how he practices his faith.

 

Any EBOR that severely crosses the line with innappropriate questioning can be rendered null and void at a drop of the hat and a new one established by any Key 3 member, and the SE. As a new DE unfortunately one of my first tasks was with the Dist Chair and the Dist Commish dismiss the District Advancement Chair of many years because of improper conduct and questioning at the EBOR's, and numerous complaints from SM's and other volunteers and candidates.

[packsaddle]

As a person who's seen it from the other end of the process, I'd like to thank you for what you did, BadenP.

[skeptic]

In our district, which runs all boards for the district, our coordinator goes over everything with a magnifying glass before even thinking about the review board. Once a board is scheduled, he has a check list that is used with the scout to try and make sure he comes totally prepared. One of the things on that list is complete uniform, including pants. He makes it clear that borrowed pants are fine, but appearing at the board is a serious event, and he needs to demonstrate he is serious; and that includes uniforming.

 

Once the board is called, the adults gather before hand and review all the paperwork; copies are made for each board member of the app, project paperwork, and a list of "suggested" questions is included as well for those not familiar. If there are any "paperwork" issues of concern, they are discussed before the scout is brought in and introduced by his leader. If something really out of line seems to have been overlooked prior, or rings a warning with someone, we will make a decision how to approach it and do so at once if possible. This led once to having to reschedule a board due to an very large issue with the project. The scout clarified it all, rewrote the confusing part, and passed his board. When asked a general project question, the scout broached the issue himself that caused the reschedule.

 

One member only is from the unit, and they always begin the round robin of about 4 go arounds. At the end, the chair of the board assures there are no more questions from board members, then asks the scout if he has any questions for the board. On occasion we have gotten some interesting responses, but usually they just want to get out of there by that time. "There is no retesting of skills, only indirect questions which touch on use of some skills." The interview is much like a job interview. The chair has one of those "that was easy" buttons, and occasionally asks the scout to push it when it seems he is stressing too much. Amazing how well that seems to work. Occasionally, especially with younger candidates, they get really tongue tied. So we all take a deep breath, he pushes the button, and we go back to the review. Most boards run 45-60 minutes.

 

We have never not passed someone as far as I know; but a few have not reached the physical review, due to inability to conform to the clarifications in paperwork, or glaring inconsistencies that raise red flags. The worst was a very strong indication that signatures were forged. But most paper issues are due to "adult" record keeping errors, and get worked out. I suspect that our process, which leans heavily on prepping and review beforehand, works well because of that. Also, we seem mostly able to focus on the scout himself, rather than his paperwork.

 

 

[Beavah]

In our district, which runs all boards for the district, our coordinator goes over everything with a magnifying glass before even thinking about the review board. Once a board is scheduled, he has a check list that is used with the scout to try and make sure he comes totally prepared. One of the things on that list is complete uniform, including pants.

 

Yah, so this is a bit of an example of what I'm talkin' about, eh?

 

Fine-tooth-combin' the paperwork. Adult checklists before goin' to a Board of Review. Uniformin' lectures.

 

Do we do that for First Class or Life Scout? If we don't think it's an important part of growth for those earlier ranks, why do we spring all that falderal on kids at the Eagle rank?

 

Just seems like overkill, eh? Or, if we really think that teachin' 'em paperwork and checklists is an important part of our program, why don't we do the job right and start when they're younger?

 

I honestly think sometimes it's da presence of all that paper that makes the adults all weird. Gets 'em focusing on signatures and procedures instead of doin' their job of focusing on the boy.

 

B

 

[skeptic]

Beavah;

 

My point was that paperwork errors and so on are not part of the board if at all possible. By someone reviewing it all, in order to make sure it is not likely to be an issue at the actual board, or when submitted to National, then it does not detract from the board itself. By having the board review things and bring up anything before the scout appears, it avoids almost all problems once he appears.

 

As far as uniforming goes, the district does not control a troop's uniforming habits. But, the scout needs to understand that the uniform is important to putting forth the proper image to the board. We have never had any scout contest this minor reminder. If you went to a job interview in jeans and wrinkled t-shirt, it unlikely you will give a good impression, unless it is for a job in which that attire is the norm; and even then, it might lessen your chances if most others came dressed more appropriately. I find it hard to believe that you would not consider uniforming important for a review at this level, one done outside of the troop.

 

The simple fact that it is known that these things are expected, helps troops encourage their scouts to learn to do it right to start with, which is part of growing up. Bureaucracy is also part of life. Working with it, while keeping it from being a hindrance, is an important lesson.

 

JMO

 

 

[Eagle92]

Beavah,

Every unit, district, and council is different. In the troop I grew up in, yes the uniform was an important part of the BOR at all levels. But we were a troop with a uniform culture, so it was the norm.

 

Part of wearing the uniform properly was Scout Spirit. Another part of it wa that it let the BOR members know what POR the scout currently held, if any, what activities he's been on via the temp patch, if any special recognitions had been earned via knots, and with my troop and it's totem, what activities and troop acheivements the scout has done.

 

Another part is that the BOR is a very serious matter, one of the few occasions that a MB sash would be worn to, and we equated it to a job interview. Now grant you there was some lightheartedness involved, but still it was a serious matter and wearing a full uniform was part of that.

[Eagledad]

These things do go in cycles because of changes in staff and learning from experience. Our EBOR is really good and doesn't have the problems discussed here, but I've seen scouts leave our Eagle Project Review Board crying. It only takes a few comments from Scoutmasters for the district to make changes, but I know of one District in our council that takes comments from Scoutmasters as a sign they are doing it right.

 

But, one thing I've noticed across the districts is that most adults in these positions don't have a full understanding of the rules and proceedures as they should. Many got there because that spot needed to be filled with a warm body. This is one area that Council training could help in solving problems.

 

Barry