Last minute eagles

[allangr1024]

In our troop we have an unusual number of boys who have followed this pattern: They get Life rank at 13 or 14, stay there for several years, quit participating at age 15 or 16, and then return to finish up their work and project for Eagle and squeak in just before their 18th birthday. My son did that, too. Last year I became SM, and am seeing these guys do this a lot. 5 of our last 6 Eagles followed this pattern. This disturbs me. I think that age 15 is the perfect age for a scout to Eagle.

 

Essentially the scouting program is a 13 year old program. When a boy turns 16, the program offers him little (except perhaps a leadership position), and they do not like to "hang around" the "little kids". I can understand that, having seen it happen with my 3 sons, and with other scouts in our troop. And of course at 16, all the other activities that 16 year olds are into have an effect.

 

My question is this: Is it right to require of these 17 year old to regularly attend meetings and go on campouts when they return to finish up their Eagle requirements? Do I, for instance, tell them they have to come to half the meetings and attand 2 campouts to be "active" in the troop. These guys did thier POR work 2, 3, or 4 years ago. They just need that personal fitness work done, and do their project, and then age out. I suspect that at age 17, they smell Eagle scholorships as they look to their college years.

 

So, you scoutmasters and other scouters out there, what do you do, and what policies do you lay down? Do I just let them finish and be glad that they got eagle? Do I require more?

 

What do you think?

 

[scoutldr]

First, let me say I agree with your sentiments.

 

But that would be adding to the requirements, which is not permitted. National has defined "be active in your troop" as "registered", according to others on this forum.

 

Sometimes I think the LDS folks have it right, segregating by age groups. When I turned 14, I joined an Explorer Post, and became more active in OA. I Eagled at 16 as an Explorer. If I hadn't done that, I probably would have dropped out because the troop didn't offer much beyond First Class.

[FScouter]

The answer may lie in discovering why 16 year old boys find no interest in the troop program. Will making a rule pique their interest?

[OldGreyEagle]

If active equals registered, and they are not active, why do they get registered? if you havent seen them, then don't reregister them

[Ohio_Scouter]

Our troop handles this issue with its Venture Patrol which gives the older guys some exciting things to do for their age group. Without our Venture Patrol and its associated high-adventure activities like caving, backpacking, boating, mountaineering, etc., I'm sure many of our older scouts would drop out of Scouting and find other more interesting things to do with their time.

[Gunny2862]

I've only been in Scouting for just over a year and am already seeing and disliking this issue.

 

My current crop is:

(1) 17 year old Eagle Jr. Asst. Scoutmaster who shows up and helps when his School activities and work don't interfere.

(1) 17 year old Eagle candidate - project in progress, awaiting his post "work" paperwork completion.

(1) 17 year old who doesn't have the ability to complete due to a lack of time left.

(1) 17 year old who might still be able to complete but who is actively avoiding contact.

(1)16 year old "I got my Eagle and call me if you do a HA trip" who never shows for anything else. His 18 year old Eagle brother who did the same thing.

A gap that drops to the next Leadership group where the current SPL, etc. come from, the 13 and 14 year olds, 2nd Class and Star Scouts, who are already asking about Venturing and Venture Patrols.

 

It is my intent to start that patrol as soon as we have the required minimum of eligible Scouts. I would like for that Patrol to stay around and be available to provide some framework of what "active" older Scouts should look like. I know that rules about this will most likely not work - but if we can make it provide better trips, and not focus so much on repeating the T-2-1 skills the way it unfortunately is now maybe they will be more likely to "want" to come back and help the younger Scouts get to where they are even if they are only there for the troop meetings and the occasional camp out.

 

I understand why the previous crowd did what they did but hope the current Scouts will take ownership of the program and let me provide the tools they need - we are keeping this as a topic of conversation with the boys in question.

 

 

[Knot Head]

Ohio, others,

 

So do you offer two different campouts per month segregated by age group?

 

One campout for the younger guys that is skill oriented or focuses on earning a merit badge like orienteering or fire safety for example?

 

Alternate campout for older guys perhaps that is canoeing, backpacking, whitewater?

 

Just wondering what you guys do in practice. Of course you need enough volunteers to do two campouts per month and that is a whole other story.

 

Our troop has the same issues with older guys losing interest. It is a challenge to have a monthly campout that appeals to the boy working on tenderfoot and also to a 15 year old Star. (This message has been edited by knot head)(This message has been edited by knot head)

[Gunny2862]

Knot head,

I'm not at the point of doing it yet, but I think it will run into monthly separate trips for the Venture Patrol and the regular Troop outing, with quarterly all-in-one trips. (So the younger Scouts can benefit from the older Scouts being around.)(And so the older Scouts can "lead" more with the younger Scouts.)

It is my hope that the Venture patrol will continue to meet at the same time as the Troop and do their business while showing the younger Scouts how it's done.

 

Does any one have a word picture of this actually working?

[scoutmaster52]

The Troop Ranks as follows: 17 year old Eagle JASM(makes most of the meetings and 75% of outings, my son)

17 year old Eagle JASM(makes meetings and activities when activites allow, has been with me since Cubs) 16 year old Eagle JASM(comes to most meetings and 25% of outings, with me since Cubs, my nephew.) 16 year old Eagle JASM (makes most meetings and 50% of outings), 4 17 years old Life Scouts working on Eagle Troop Guide, OA REP, Instructor, Webelos Troop Guide,2 15 year old life scouts PL and Instructor and 4 14 year old life Scouts SPL, ASPL, 2 PLs. We try to keep them active by offering merit badges that entice them, like golfing and other special trips. During meetings while the 14 year olds run the troop, they are treated like adults and spred out to observe and offer help and also interact with the other adults. Troop also has 12 other lower ranks.

These Eagles are numbers 5, 6, 8, and 9 since I took over as SM. Numbers 1, 2, 3, 4 and 7 were twilight Eagles who came to occasional meetings and outings and disappeared after reaching Eagle.

[Eagledad]

>>Essentially the scouting program is a 13 year old program. When a boy turns 16, the program offers him little (except perhaps a leadership position), and they do not like to "hang around" the "little kids".

[Gunny2862]

Barry, you may be right. That may be a stumbling block for me. I can only recognize it and work on it.

 

On the other hand it is also the character and included responsibility factor I am looking for, not simply # of Eagles produced whether they "just met the requirements" or were recognized "as Eagles". And I'd much rather have the latter.

Eagle is only a metric for those who develop that far - and a parental pressure on the program.

 

As to the JASM in question, I have an ASM who only shows up when work doesn't interfere with him also - same rules apply - glad to see you here!

I just wish either of them would show up more often and more regularly.

 

And we are actively trying to place your other numbered steps into production rather than just talking about them.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

[Ohio_Scouter]

Knothead,

 

We let our Venture Patrol design their own program in addition to and separate from our regular troop program. We allow the Venture Patrol to participate in the regular troop program if they want, and we recruit older scout volunteers to help out with the regular troop program, too.

 

Sometimes, the Venture Patrol program and the regular troop program campouts intersect at the same location. The younger scouts might do a 5 mile hike, and the Venture Patrol might do a 15 mile hike on a different trail, for example, camping and cooking with members of their Venture Patrol.

 

We believe this method helps keep it interesting for all involved and gives the younger scouts something even more exciting to look forward to when they mature as older scouts.

[Beavah]

Yah, allangr1024, I think you're gettin' the program that's the natural result of da way you're lookin' at it.

 

If yeh think Scouting is a 13-year-old program, and that the Top Award should be earned by age 15, well, that's about what you've got. By 15, they're lookin' to do other things. My guess is that Eagle is significantly enough harder, and significantly enough "disconnected" from the regular program that they don't finish and drop out.

 

Two choices for you. The easiest choice is to make your expectations for Eagle easier, so that it's readily approachable by the average 14-year-old in your program. Add more service projects to your regular calendar so they get "plugged in" to local agencies for Eagle projects. Do a strong job of teachin' planning and independence running simple, small projects and outings at age 13, so they can handle a smaller Eagle project as a 14-year-old. Make a big show of young Eagles, so kids that age are inspired to finish. Then let 'em Eagle out and go join a Crew! Guys that don't finish and fade out get dropped from da roster, just like a Cub who doesn't finish AOL. If he wants to pursue Eagle at age 16-17, he has to go with the rest of the lads and join a crew.

 

Second choice is probably harder for you since you've been part of this troop's culture for so long. Recognize that there really are troops out there where 17-year-olds are happy, regular participants and leaders in their troop. They all stay in, all the way through, not just one or two. They enjoy the challenge of running safe trips for younger boys. As younger boys they always looked up to the cool older lads and looked forward to someday being like that. They typically get Eagle at 17, running a 300 hour project with no adult help at all, and every younger scout shows up at the ECOH starry-eyed because they all know Joe, and Joe is an Eagle Scout.

 

Your second choice is to change your troop into one of those, eh?

 

Either way yeh choose to go is reasonable. I think you're right, and a good SM, for recognizing an important issue and deciding to think about it deeply and address it.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagledad]

>>As to the JASM in question, I have an ASM who only shows up when work doesn't interfere with him also - same rules apply - glad to see you here!

I just wish either of them would show up more often and more regularly.

[John-in-KC]

I just went out with a Venturing Crew yesterday, mini-golfing. One of the young men was 17, another was almost 17, another is days from 19.

 

Young men want activities and interests which engage them. If your Troop is losing youth at 15, and they're coming back at 17 and 4 months, then it's time to look at what your program offers the 16 year old...

 

- Many have mentioned real authority and responsibility for the Troop. Do you give that to these older youth, or are they made to do the basics one more time?

 

- How many times have they camped in that campsite? What challenge would keep them going?

 

- Finally, if you are offering age-appropriate program which they've bought into, and they're still not coming, maybe you don't renew their membership at recharter. Let them re-apply to come back. While conditions on advancement are not kosher, having a pre-joining SM conference and setting expectations before you accept their youth app to me is in the box.