dan

When meeting people you automatically extend your left hand.

I enjoyed this story, 10 scouts helping each other along. http://www.dailyherald.com/search/main_story.asp?intID=3798320 (This message has been edited by dan)

Eamonn This does not sound like a battle that you can win. If you become a whistle blower, you will be the person who caused the council to not get the Quality award, and probably will be out of your scouting "job" shortly after. I believe that would be a very bad thing, from the quality of your posts. Whilst I think you need to put this behind you and continue to fight the good clean fight.

The beast is stirring(This message has been edited by dan)

Listed in order of time spent on each. Home Improvements (purchased a fix me upper 6 years ago, another 3 and it should be done!) Web Sites Motorcycles Photographer Golfing (have not golfed in 2 years, but I have not given up on it, yet)

Double H Ranch in New Mexico 9 scouts Prevailing Winds II, ship which sails Lake Michigan and or Superior. 11 scouts Both in July At least 3 scouts are going to Philmont for training One advantage of a large troop is the adventures that can be opened up for the scouts.

LED flashlight Mini Mag Light (I now have 3) Magellan GPS

Eamonn I think I understand the charter concept. I am just not sure if it is working well. I still do not believe that 1,000,000 boys sort of doing scouting is better than 500,000 doing it correctly. But you have changed my question from how do we get the leaders on board, to how do you get the CO and COR on board to make sure that the program is being done correctly. The answer I am hearing here is, We cannot, and BSA will muddle through with what we have. And the muddling is going to get harder if the BSA has to cut down on staffing levels. But, I will be here, working with the BSA. My post seems to be very negative, which I try not to be, but it seems to be my writing style. I am the guy on the campouts, telling the other leaders about the positives of the BSA and the troop! I do really believe in the BSA. I am really trying to have constructive criticism. (This message has been edited by dan)

MY BAD I meant the Elk Foundation. Not club. I got a little more info from here. http://www.lns.cornell.edu/~seb/double-h/ Now all I have to do is get in shape! And Philmont in 2005, at least for the troop, hopefully I will get to tag along with them in 2005. Thanks for the info.

Has anyone been to the doubleH ranch? If so what was you trek like? Does anyone have any background on it? As far as I could tell the owner passed away in 2002 donated the ranch to the Elks club, but I could not find any info on how Philmont got involved in doing treks there. The troop is scheduled to go there in 2004. www.doublehranch.net

gear the program towards the youth of Twenty-first Century America What does this mean? Do away with camping and have gameboy nights?

Most here are done after a Camporee or Camporall campfire. Once the scouts are done with the campfire they are invited to leave or stay for the ceremony.

How many boys registered? 79 How many boys active? 55-60 How many Patrols? 8 Does your troop go to summer camp in or out of Council? OUT Does your troop go to Dist/Council Camporees? Yes Does your troop support FOS? Yes Does your troop sell Popcorn? Yes What are your other fundraisers? Wreaths Does your troop use NSP, FCFY method? Yes, working on improving both. Does your troop have a Venture Patrol? No, we are a feeder for a Venturing Group sponsored by the same CO. Scouts are in both units. Does your troop have a feeder pack? Use to, put a stop to it, told them they should be looking at other troops also. 6 packs feed the troop. How does your troop recruit non-Cub Scouts? Do Not Has your troop seen your Unit Commissioner in the past 6 months? NO Is your Unit Commissioner helpful or a pain? Neither just useless. Does your troop leaders attend Roundtable? No How many members are on your troop committee? 29-MC 1-CC also have 62 regiestred ASM Is your troop boy led? Yes, No, Yes, NO, YES

I think what you have said would help cub scouting. Using the program helps. I was as Den leader for 4 years. In my 4th year I decided to try to use the program helps, I thought that the scouts would be bored with them, Boy was I wrong! Made my life allot easier. Issues as I see it, I did not really know that I was suppose to be preparing the cubs to go into boy scouts. It was one of my goals, but I did not get the feeling that this was my task from Training. Another issue was that I could not find Boy Scout Troops to visit, I called the council office and asked for names to call for troops in the area, they said go to roundtable, they told me that we where a feeder pack for a certain troop, I informed them that the BSA does not have feeder packs, she hung up on me. I attended just about every roundtable when I was a Cub Scouter. The roundtable was segregated Cubs vs. Boy Scouts. The Boy Scouts leaders wanted nothing to do with the Cub Scouts. I do not think the Cub Scout program needs to be rebuilt. I can not comment on the new tiger program, I know nothing about it. The program I used for Cub Scouting seemed to keep the scouts involved and having fun. 5 out of 6 went on to boy scouts. The biggest issues I see is leaders not giving a darn about the program. They are just trying to get through the 5 years and get out. Only have 2 den meetings a month. Stopping the program in summer. Not having the scouts do fun things, like building things, going on outings, like visiting the fire station, a farm, etc. Have you ever seen a Pack in complete uniform? I never have! But I have seen the same boys in complete soccer uniforms. I really think the uniform needs to be mandatory, at least for leaders. Another poster on this forum has said a couple of times, that when you filled out the application to join you agreed to follow the BSA program. I meant to look at a application last night, to see what the wording really is, if it is on the application it must be to subtle. If it is not on the application, it should be in BIG BOLD letters. To sum up The biggest problem is not with Program, Cub or Boy, it is with the leaders. Saying that we are competing with sports, is just a crutch. I really do believe in the BSA program, just frustrated with what I am seeing and hearing. I do not believe that one million boys sort of doing the scouting program is a good thing, I believe it would be better to have 500,000 doing it correctly.

commandopro There is no ways too reasonable fix the declining membership and dollars. To really fix the issues and not just put Band-Aids on the issues, you will have to cut the cancer out, the patient (the BSA) may not survive. 1st. Training is too subtle. As I read the comments on this and other message boards, and attend council and district events, most leaders believe that the all of the BSA program is flexible, meaning they can run it anyway they want or they do not understand the program and what is expected from them. NO FCFY, No Eagle until 17, Retesting at BOR, selecting POR, Wearing dockers or jeans with a BSA shirt. Training and the Program needs to be a lot less subtle. Need to tell the leaders how the program will be ran and not just hint at it during training. And if a trainer is not following the syllabus stop the class and reschedule it! 2nd. Remove leaders that do not follow the program. I am not buying that a bad program is better than no program. You must be ready to close troops and packs. 3rd. Fire the bad professionals, keep the good ones even if they have 30 years less experience. The same goes for volunteers. If a Unit Commissioner has a troop that is not following the program, they need to be in there bending the CO ears and the CC, the UC need to have the teeth to fix these issues. 4th. Change the requirements for advancements for scout from do the requirement, to master the requirement. We are not doing the boys or the leaders any favors by making it easier. Most boys want to be challenged, not given a requirement. You have left us leaders out in the cold on this one, we need solid and firm requirements, so we do it all the same. The old books stated that the scout should master the requirements, the current book says to do it once and you are done. 5th. Give us better tools to deal with issues, Scouts not doing BOR, Scouts swearing, Scouts not following the program. Dealing with parents. Issue that we face when we are in the woods with 30 scouts and one does not want to be there. 6th. I see that the district I am in are missing 4 key volunteers, not one word about this in the monthly newsletter, asking for someone to fill these rolls. In other words Communicate Better and more. Give unproven or new people a shot at it, but be prepared to remove them quickly if they do not get it. In other words, if you fix the program the membership will fix itself. I once heard a number that said 40 percent of scout troops do not do any type of high adventures, gee do you think the scouts get bored! Heard the same number saying that 40 percent of the troops do not camp! Their outdoor adventure is a daylong service project. Is this following the BSA program?

I will sign a Petition to have fog removed from this board. I have sent the moderator of this board an message asking for such, but I have not got a reply. For all of you who think that fog is an asset all I have to say is good luck to you, if that is the best that you can read people. The sheep thing was way over the top, along with all of the bigotry he has spewed over the last 6 months. Than top it off with all of the myths of scouting that he trys to make as the real BSA program. With that I wish you all a Good Night.

http://www.macscouter.com/Scoutmaster/BoR/

have you ever heard of a chain reaction? lets face it many adults cannot drive with a hoot. ask a cop about this one, boy can they give you an insight to this.

Bigdog I tipped my hat to you! Great story, Great Idea! Have a great time shopping.

The driver must be currently licensed and at least 18 years of age. Youth member exception: When traveling to and from an area, regional, or national Boy Scout activity or any Venturing event under the leadership of an adult (at least 21 years of age) tour leader, a youth member at least 16 years of age may be a driver, subject to the following conditions: Six months' driving experience as a licensed driver (time on a learner's permit or equivalent is not to be counted) No record of accidents or moving violations Parental permission granted to the leader, driver, and riders This is a change that happened over 2 years ago. (This message has been edited by dan)

Its kind of like reading the Bible everyone puts there own slant to it! A 16 year old scout can drive other scouts to events if all guardians agree to it. No restrictions are placed on driving to a meeting.

SM406 You left out smokers and swearers!

Spring (March, April, & May) 51 degrees Summer (June, July, & August) 74 degrees Fall (September, October, & November) 54 degrees Winter (December, January, & February) 24 degrees Average snowfall total is 31.5 Winter average 24 = 48-24 = 24 you will see below zero temps Most part of Iowa are in a moderate drought right now, so they are hoping for more snow to help the watershed. andrewcanoe yes driving on I80 watching or should I say doging the semi trucks is breathtaking! Only pulling your leg! The truck traffic is very heavy the first 50 miles, than it tapers down. World largest truckstop is on I80 in Walcot Iowa about 1 hour west of the Illinois border. This truckstop has movie theartes in it! I stop there for gas and a malt from DQ, on my way home from Iowa City.

Have not used the bags in questions. But I can tell you what we have. I have a slumberjack -20 big timber BIG bag, this is not a mummy bag, it is huge, it weighs over 6 pounds, it is rated for a 7 foot person. I am 6'4". I have used it 0 degrees and stayed warm. But it would be nice to have a hood on it. If we where to camp below zero, I would use this bag and put a summer bag in it. I have not found a fleece liner that will fit me, yet. Going camping this weekend weather is calling for 12 degrees, I will have an extra bag with me, well actually I will have about 4 extra bags with me, just in case, someone needs one. My son has a Coleman 0 degree Coleman mummy bag purchased at walmart for 40 bucks, he says he has never gotten cold in it. He has had it for 4 years, but has only used it about 10 times, I had the same bag but sized for 6'4" used it once and returned it, to small. I purchased 2 LaFuma bags this summer for my son and I, they are rated at 23 degrees, these are lightweight bags, we use for high adventures, got down to 35 degrees one night and I was a little chilly with it. I got these at Gaylans, for 50 bucks each, plus if you have your scout card you get 10% off. My rule is thumb is to take 20 degrees off of the bag, to keep yourself warm. But my first 2 years with scouts, I used a 30 degree bag inside an old 40 degree bag and stayed really warm at 10 degrees, actually a little to warm, I was sweating. I think you could probably get away with using a little cheaper bag, Like the slumberjack, I have had mine for 2 years and have used it maybe 5 times. Unless you are going to backpack with it, than you will want to go with a lighter more expensive bag. Remember to keep your bags unrolled and uncompressed when not being used.

Hunt Would the leaders have to wear the new skateboarding uniforms? I shudder to think of some leaders wearing skateboarding outfits. Every 3 years! could you imgaine the cries of of the costs then!