Crew21_Adv

Love2Camp78,

Greetings!

There is no such thing as Co-Scoutmasters. So as you've explained, you and the SM or the ASM were abruptly removed from that position, and another adult leader was asked to become the Scoutmaster.

Unfortunately, the forum can't tell what is in the mind of the Committee. If you and the other leader were not yet trained, it sounds like most of your adult leadership in your troop is probably not trained as well. Hopefully the committee will attend training as well (not only on-line, but in a group setting). From your post, it reads like there are no other trained ASMs, or more specifically, no ASMs at all. This sounds like a huge problem within your troop.

Hopefully the committee makes the best decision they can at the time. Though this is not guaranteed. Even committees make mistakes or are misinformed sometimes.

But to summarize your question. Can a Committee (and Committee Chair) remove a Scoutmaster? In the absence of an active COR, Yes.

The main issue was the lack of tactfulness. It would be inappropriate for a committee member to barge into a troop meeting and announce another Scoutmaster has been selected, in front the current Scoutmaster.

The committee decision was probably a valid decision. A DE/SE or the units IH would probably support the committee. The behavior, probably not the best way to announce the decision to the Scouts. They may lose trust in the ASMs and committee if they believe there are reasons behind the removal.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Arrowmen,

Greetings!

We've had the similar Q&A in my district and chapter about two years ago. It was the OA election season during the winter, just before Spring Camporee and OA Spring Ordeal.

We had one troop (PLC and Committee) that decided to go on their own for a summer, they obtained reservations at a known campsite in the near a local river. That summer, just prior to elections.

Regarding the interpretation of the OA literature that shortridge quoted. My chapter and district agreed, if they troop planned and appropriately submitted a tour permit for the week, and our council reviewed the tour permit and granted permission, then it was a council sanctioned camp and camping days.

Just my .02 cents.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Eagle92,

Thanks for posting this. I've never seen it before.

After years of SMF, then moving onto NLE, Specifics and IOLS. I have met a few Scouters whom had the experience and skills to demonstrate Scout thru First Class.

But I never seen an exemption like that before. It may have been printed, but I've never see an allowance for testing out.

Without knowledge of being able to exempt learners. I told all Scouters, they needed to attend IOLS, regardless of their camping ability.

I've told friends that IOLS is not to teach a Scouter how to camp. But it is to teach adult Scouters how to take Scouts out camping safely. And have them (young Scouts) to demonstrate the skills.

Thanks for the repost Eagle92.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Bart and Fellow Scouters,

I've also heard about Scouts tying the ends of the neckerchief in a square knot after completing a good deed. But I read Bart's question a little differently. I think its the knot at the bottom of the second class and first class rank.

It was debated on this forum, but I think it is a type of prussik knot or reminder knot. But for ease of talking to the Scouts (or just simple people like me), I refer to the square knot instead of this 2nd class/1st class rank knot.

One of the simplest knots, the basic square knot is an over hand throw, followed by another over hand throw in the opposite direction.

After you have the over hand throw. I've often heard, that it take one good turn, to create a square knot. So, the square knot serves as a reminder to do a good turn.

http://www.boyscouttrail.com/webelos/boyscoutreqsaid.asp

http://www.boyscouttrail.com/webelos/scoutknot.asp

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

beardad,

congrats and keep working!

Fellow Scouters and Fellow Critters,

Greetings!

WB21C has had about 5-6 minor modifications, in 10 years.

A few years ago the Web to Scout Bridging moved from an hour after check in to just after lunch. Another topic substituted backpacking stoves, and strategic planning was modified. But the majority of the curriculum stays the same.

However, the movies have been the same since 2001. Since it is an educational course/school, the council has to pay some entertainment royalties and intellectual property or educational proprietary rights/fees. Most of the courses I've attended and seen, they will run October Sky, sometimes as a pajama party, they want the learner to take something back from it, but relax and enjoy the movie as well. I was disappointed during one course when I saw learners sitting upright in metal chairs in tight rows. I felt uncomfortable.

Some weeklong courses will allow this night as an optional double feature, since they teased the students with clips from Remember the Titans. They may advertise it as October Sky (with reflection afterwards) and Remember the Titans Movie Night.

The course staff usually allows patrols to make up their mind to stay thru the second movie, go back and get some sleep, or work on the patrol flag, cheer, and personal ticket.

I usually comment about these movies while promoting fellow Scouters to attend the course. If you only have a minute during an event to sell Wood Badge, I say key names/words like Steven Covey, Franklin Covey, Ken Blanchard, Team Development, and some Disney Movies (everyone loves Disney Movies) and they all have happy endings. Then saying, if you want a successful Pack or Troop, attend Wood Badge; if you really want a successful Troop (or Crew) attend NYLT.

(Disclaimer: Of all the movie clips, I think October Sky is the only one that is Universal Studies, I believe all the other clips are Disney, MGM, and Buena Vista)

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

If I could tell some similar stories.

Now I can look back and grin, almost laugh at similar circumstances. Although at the time, I was frustrated during one event, and could acknowledge the disappointment of some other parents.

Shortridge quoted the 11th handbook "In addition to your own gear, you might carry some patrol or group equipment. Your share might include several pots, part of a tent, a camp stove, and some food."

Many years ago. When I was a committee member with another troop, the Troop decided to hike in seven miles to camp. The troop assembled. My oldest son (13 at the time) was PL. Go figure. Out of the entire troop, my oldest son was the only one with a regular backpack, beyond the SM and ASMs. Most of the parents wouldn't purchase an actual back pack for their sons. So the parents would empty all the contents of the son's school backpack (large enough for one book and one folder, then it was ripping at the seams) and put an extra pair of socks and shorts in the school back pack. Their "Walmart/KMart" convenient store style sleeping bags were wrapped with string and put into a "hefty" garbage bag. Their sleeping bags were dragging on the gravel before they left the parking lot, and they dragged them for the next 7 miles.

My oldest had to carry his own gear, plus all the patrols gear. He carried his own stuff, plus all the food, plus all the water, and the cook kits. There was absolutely no room for anything else to be distributed.

Trying to be Scoutlike, I tried not to be angry at his fellow Scouts, the best I could think was that I was disappointed with my fellow Scouting parents for not investing in their own son's personal equipment.

I've seen similar events, where parents would send boys not adequately equipped for camping. And I make it a point to say camping gear and backpacks make excellent Christmas gifts, for a newly bridged Scout.

I've also got an ASM friend, that tells the story of his parents sending him out to a troop weekend camp in the winter and not adequately equipped back in the mid-60's. He said that as a young 11 year old, he was ready to quit. It was then his Grandfather and Grandmother took him to the department store, and made sure he was fully equipped, warm and dry for the rest of his Scouting years.

Now about disappointment with Lost Gear.

I had a few Scouting friends who really got spun up, at a Summer Camp staff. With about 4-5 boys in the troop taking Wilderness Survival MB at Summer Camp, the 19 y/o counselor gave them advice on how to start a fire "just rip the sleeves off your Troop T-shirt and use it for fire starter" "Plus its cooler, during the Summer".

Guess what? The entire class ripped the sleeves off their Troop T-shirts to start the fire, after about 3 or 4 class periods that day of Wildness Survival about 50 boys were walking around camp with "wife beaters" (pardon the quote, but used it for a mental images) for the rest of camp. Needless to say, about 4-5 of our Scout parents were "lit up" over their new T-shirts (Lost Gear = Grrr $$$), now become new sleeveless T-shirts.

My son already had Wilderness Survival MB by that time, so he wasn't caught up in ripping up their troop t-shirts, but I certainly could acknowledge the disappointment of the other parents.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Cleto,

Greetings!

What would be an appropriate action for this scenario?

It would warrant further investigation. If the findings exceed YP definitions, that would be dismissal. If they findings are just disappointing discussions and behavior that would be the determination of the COR.

I do not know the exact details of your recent events, and your question/scenario is very vague.

Here are my thoughts from a similar scenario...

In my troop. We ocassionally have young adults join our unit. They participate once a month, maybe once every two months. Showing up to assist with some various events. These young adults are usually Eagle Scouts, wanting to "pay back" just a little.

We had one specific young adult on the committee a few years ago. A young 25'ish Eagle. Fairly good guy, but at this time in his life, not the best role model. He would attend about every other meeting. He was recently divorced from a short marriage, and excessive alcohol was the entertainment after his work day. For a short period of time, he was our Eagle Scout Advisor/Counselor. On occasion he would talk to the older Life Scouts about their Eagle Scout Projects.

Although we (the committee and him) would pretty much agree with his opinion of an Eagle Scout Project, his dialogue with the Life Scout was pretty abrasively blunt. The Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster would say to any of the Life Scouts "Is there really a benefactor?", "Do you really think this is leaving a legacy?", "Are you really demonstrating leadership here?", and "let's make sure this is legal first" One of our Scouts wanted to donate IPODs to a local VA hospital, but wanted to illegally download the music. (Whoa wait a second, good idea, wrong procedures!) But this Young Adult Eagle Advisor would directly say "Dude, This sucks!" "You would be laughing stock if you did this project!". It would take months for the Life Scouts to return with a modified project submission.

Well maybe we agreed with him, but the older adult leaders would take a more tactful approach.

Also, other adult leaders found out this young adult leader was glamorizing alcohol. We know most of these Life Scouts have seen their parents have a beer, wine or cocktail. In school and the community, they learn the dangers of excessive alcohol and/or drugs. But our young adult Eagle Advisor would say "Dude, I got so wasted last weekend". Then he would follow up with "It was soooo much fun though".

Okay now our older Life Scouts equated excessive alcohol consumption to more fun.

Our young adult Eagle Scout Advisor never tried to keep his discussions a secret or never stated to the Life Scouts "this is just between you and me".

Did our young adult on the troop committee violate youth protection, sexual abuse, verbal abuse or emotion abuse. No. The committee did not believe so. Did he discuss things that disappointed parents. Yes. We were very disappointed with him.

You asked. "What would be an appropriate action for this scenario?"

Here is the action my troop took for a similar scenario.

The Committee discussed what we knew. The Committee decided, he was not a pedophile or abuser, but he was misdirected and not the best role model. The Committee decided to remove him from Eagle Scout Advisor and keep him as a Committee Member (at large). The Committee asked that he become aware and educated of his improper interactions and the committees desired actions.

Our action, the committee delegated a subcommittee to discuss a resolution with him. Two ASMs and another Committee member. We told him, as adults we all have had alcohol. We all have been to social parties. But that we now have to be responsible and separate the glamor of dangerous activities from our Scouts. We expressed that we (the subcommittee) were all 25 once. But we don't want our sons to equate excessive alcohol to fun. We also discussed the really odd Eagle projects we've heard, and how we advise Life Scouts to make sure there is a benefactor and there really is a service being provided.

He accepted the admonishment. He apologized for the misdirected topics. And continued to participate as a general committee member (w/o direct interaction with any youth), till he moved away from our community.

It was a difficult committee discussion. It was a difficult counseling session. But our unit is much better for the actions that we took.

Hopefully, your committee can determine what was said, what was improper and how the committee feels about the actual scenario, and then decide the appropriate action for your young adult leader.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

Thomas54,

Greetings!

I had the similar question as acco40, but watching the discussion it was leading to the workbook.

I think UCEagle72 stated that he would assist with corrections prior to submission to National.

As I understand. The Service Project Workbook does not even go to a Council Committee, it is a Council Advancement Chairs signature and decision. The Rank Application previously went to National. But I have been told since 2000, the Rank Application is entered in ScoutNET 2000 as Eagle BOR date and Council Executive Endorsement and confirmed electronically by National.

So, How would I take action to answer your question.

"You as the SM or the Eagle coordinator see several writing errors in a scout's Eagle application. Do you go through and mark it up, adding comments to improve the wording?"

The Service Project Workbook goes only as far as the Council Advancement Chair. If I have been given the project to review, I asked that it contain safety, that it contains leadership (and communicating the plan), that it contains a schedule and plans. It can be a paragraph long or it can be a 100 page essay, I don't care. I desire quality (of the project) not quantity. It may go back to the youth for a few revisions of safety and communications. Those recommendations are usually written in pencil on the side borders of the workbook and photocopied for my reminders.

After that, I may tell an Eagle candidate what I like, but as long as I can read it aloud, and it still makes sense, I am accepting. If the service project workbook is so poorly written that it does not make a complete thought, then it is time for the red pen and recommended spelling and grammar corrections.

Many of the project workbooks I've reviewed have made it thru the first steps of Eagle Trail, contain only a few grammatical errors and few spelling mistakes made by an average teenage boy.

I have seen one Service Project Workbook in the past decade that was pretty torn, worn out, crushed, and drawn on (Japanese Anime during school lunch time), with only a paper clip holding the entire mess together. This Eagle candidate and abused workbook still gradually made it thru the process, till the Scout was awarded the Eagle Rank.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

Fellow Wood Badgers,

Greetings!

About my WB past experiences, I attended and staffed the WB for Boy Scout Leaders in two councils, then later staffed the WB21C in three different councils.

As the WB21C began, many of the new learners would asked which course the staffers enjoyed better. It was difficult to remain impartial, and staffers attempted to tell them that it was a different course and it was similar educational points and just as much fun.

Regarding Dwellers thoughts.

1. We (staffers) brought plenty of critters that represented our totem and sat them around the classroom tables (and etc). I still encourage new staffers to label their stuffed animals and figurines. The totem is fun and helps a patrol to bond, but can sometimes get carried away and distract from learning how to serve a pack, troop or crew.

2. Stave, we used during old courses. But not part of the current syllabus that I recall.

3. Staff recognition. I get tired of that as well. We need to say thank you quiet often, we all need a pat on the back. Even staffers need to be recognized in front of their peers. But a 10-15 minute ceremony every two hours. geez.. I can feel your pain. It is like the campfire song, "This is the song that never ends" After the first five stanzas, it gets old.

4. Soliciting. Yep agree. World Friendship Fund is written as an option in the curriculum a course may or may not conduct a WFF during (Interfaith) Worship Service. Soliciting for FOS and Scouterships has a time and place. WB21C is not the right time and place.

5. Same Material again. Yeah. Probably is, in some form or another. I remember 10, 13, 15, and 16 styles of a leader, then reduced back down to 4 leadership traits. I'm confused to what the current contemporary trend is. But with each course or conference, I learn to communicate and network, then identify what I can do for an organization and what an organization can do for me.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Speedy's DAD,

Greetings!

You've heard some excellent advice.

The Wood Badge course curriculum is reviewed and edited every few years (major revisions maybe every 10-15 years).

In previous courses, under the Wood Badge for Boy Scout Leaders, all participants had to look like a troop. Everyone had to wear the Boy Scout uniform of a Scout, and a participant was usually recommended to bring two shirts. Staffers were recommended to bring three or four shirts. Adult position came off and adult knots came off. Unit numerals were removed and a No 1 numeral had to be sewn on. And if a Scouter was from another neighboring council, the CSP was usually taken off and a new council CSP was placed on.

When the BSA training committee updated WB into Wood Badge for the 21st Century, they did away with all the troop identical uniforming. The WB21C Committee decided that the skills that WB teaches is paramount. They still believed in uniforming, but not to the amount that it was bankrupting and driving away some potentially good Scouters.

Uniforming is great, and it does have a place in Scouting. In a normal WB course, a participant wont learn their patrol, until after the course has already started and a few lessons into the course. Regarding your course, as long as you are correctly wearing the uniform of your current position, I wouldn't sweat the patrol patch or even sewing it on.

Enjoy the class and hopefully your Pack/Troop really benefits!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

QuekolisChief,

Greetings!

Here are my thoughts. This peaks some interest and improves attendance just slightly for my Chapter.

1) Good Communication (email comments and easy newsletter)

2) Easy Access (within walking distance or when parents can drive)

3) Fun (video games, to pizza, to actual outdoor low COPES team building games)

4) Program (ceremony or service oriented)

5) Recognition (recognize the Arrowmen at COH's and Camporee's)

Safety is the first lesson is most every BSA class. Communications is the second lesson after Safety. Don't wait for a newsletter to be "perfect", just get word out. Unfortunately, many parents put the parents email onto their son's OA registration form.

During each OA election cycle, I visit troops and ask three questions.

a) Are you paid up for this year? (The answer is usually no)

b) Do you receive the email newsletters? (Usually not, they've changed emails already or their parents delete the Chapter Newsletter) I then ask for a good email listing from the Arrowmen.

c) Do you know when and where the Chapter meetings are? (They usually forget or never get the email reminder).

For Easy Access. They have to be able to get to a Chapter meeting. Most of my 12 y/o Arrowmen don't even have keys to the family car yet. So we put Chapter meetings on the same night as Roundtable, of course, in the neighborhood meeting location.

Our Fun. Is pretty easy. Beef Jerky and Rootbeer at Chapter meetings are always advertised. And we start them off with fun, and introduce service later.

Our program. Has a slow start. We try not to exceed our abilities. We plan on three ceremonies a year. One AoL ceremony for the packs to come to us. One Call Out Ceremony at Camporee. and, one Ordeal Ceremony (1st and 2nd Ceremonies). We only plan on an 8 hour service project to clean up the local campsite within the community boundaries.

Recognition in public. Its easy to identify "flappers". That is okay. Sometimes they pay their dues, sometimes they don't. Their membership lapses and they continue to wear the flap and sash. My chapter doesn't have any problem with regular Arrowmen (active or inactive). But we call out the specific Arrowmen that provide Service to the Chapter for special flap patches during camporees and district events. The participating arrowmen are recognized; not only at OA events, but infront of the other Scouts and families. Ultimately, So that the regular Arrowman can see their fellow teenager being recognized for what they have done.

Finally, Remember the old saying

How do you eat an elephant?

One bite at a time

Or dont overwhelm yourself, start slow, then build up the chapter.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Jamboree Parents,

Greetings!

If I may add my own thoughts.

The 2010 Jamboree was my second Jamboree. First time was as an ASM in 2005; this second time was w/o my sons and as a Jamboree staff. Of about 48,000 in attendance, I'm told the numbers were approximately 2000 participants and about 500 staff members in each subcamp.

With 2500 members in a subcamp area. It only takes a handful of misbehaving Scouts, to ruin it for the entire subcamp. Mischief and theft occurs by maybe a dozen boys (and maybe adults), and all the troops start feeling the souring effects.

I've had some great experiences at Jamboree with 48,000 of my best friends; and some downers like ADCmohegan's son experienced(that were caused by a dozen or so, "jerks" wearing a Scout uniform). Trying to look on the positive side, I enjoyed my time with most everyone, and there are a handful of individuals I'd like to take the Boy Scout Handbook to.

Even in the staff areas there was some disappointing theft. Jamboree belt buckles being removed from belts, missing program patches taken off pockets, even a laptop computer was stolen, and etc.

Unfortunately, this could be a good lesson for future Jamboree Contingents. What did you do last time? and what should the contingent do this time? Although it is every four years (five years last wait and three years this separation) The next contingent troops usually go over lessons learned, to improve on the next trip. Peer to Peer direct advice and feedback to the 12/13 year olds for the 2013 Jamboree.(whom are 9-10 y/o now), coming from an 17 y/o Eagle Scout would drive a point home of locking up valuables and thinking about where you place items, and the buddy system. Reminders could contain topics such as:

- Lock up all hats, scarves, and patches in your luggage container.

- Always close your tent flaps.

- Design your campsite with strictly only one entrance/exit for foot traffic.

- SM/ASM team make a good bank. But now Jamboree is offering ATM cards and bracelets.

- For hometown news reporter, use your issued bike lock with your hometown news bike.

As per SR540Beaver's comment. I remember Scouts physically breaking and destroying PVC showers and porcelain toilets on a daily bases. In my 2005 subcamp, Jamboree maintenance was delivering new porcelain toilets daily. The showers, well by 1800 every night they would all look like a Las Vegas water fountain show with water shooting 20 feet straight up. All three shower platforms, all 10 pipes, every night, were broken. It was a disappointment to the subcamp; the damaging mischief caused by only a few youth. On the last night of the 2005 Jamboree, I rolled my eyes when I walked past the soda machines, with 18 inch stakes driven into the coin return. Again, this mischief from a small number of youth was difficult for the other 2500 Scouts/Scouters in subcamp.

This 2010 Jamboree seemed to have more signs saying conserve water, use chemicals and etc. I do believe 2010 Jamboree had more chemicals out there on site, and had a better contract. Honestly, I found the chemical toilets cleaner than the toilet GP mediums from 2005. And from the road, I noticed some of the shower platforms had steel pipes, instead of PVC.

By 2013, We won't do away with the mischief; like human nature and boys fighting, mischief will still be there. But ideally by 2013, troops and individual scouts will be more aware and better prepared. Lock up everything, don't give a thief a reason to steal, and have fun with the other 47, 999 friends. Those Scouts are the real reason Jamboree is fun.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Advisors,

Thanks for the comments!

I enjoy the Venturing recognition/advancement program. Though in my Crew, it is a slow and time consuming program. But more than that, I'm glad that we offer an annual program that will help attain those goals, plus personal goals.

I'll admit it, I also enjoy adult recognitions. As long as Scouters are serving their youth, financing events, providing programs, driving to camp, driving Scouts home, etc, etc.

IMHO, hopefully, National BSA will stop trying to measure the success of Venturing by how many advancements are completed; and find a reasonable "measuring stick" to compare against a Crew's program and membership.

Some of our respected forum members and Advisors believe national BSA decision makers have become detatched from the Venturing "sounding board", and not paying attention to the desires of Crews, Advisors and Venturers. Again, hopefully national begins to listen to the Advisors, Mentors and specifically the Venturing youth.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Advisors,

Let me start of by telling a story of a Scouting friend and a council committee member within the program committee. Due to his profession, he was invited by national BSA to review some Cub Scout handbook literature about 15 years ago. The national BSA handbook review committee acted like a pilot program, the few members were assemble by national and read new (pre-publishing) handbooks and other specific cub scout program literature before the publication and printing date. They didnt have to travel either, they did most of their work via email and fax during the time at home. The committee had recommended a change to the Cub Scout Sports and Academics to be renames Cub Scout Academic and Sports program. They recommended easing the harsh requirements for the Sports and Academic Pins (earned by parent and Cub). But while doing their review, they found that a Cub Scout earning the Bicycling activity pin, would ride 150 miles more than a Boy Scout earning the Bicycling Merit Badge. At other previous handbook committees, Boy Scout advancement committees decided to reduce the 500 word essays to 200 word essays and remove time requirements between Scout thru First Class.

So sometimes, national has both sanctioned pilot committees and occasionally received feedback to review literature and requirements be sure they are SMART, specifically attainable. Now back to the current 2010 and the Unit Leader Award of Merit.

During Jamboree I saw a slightly different Scoutmaster POR patch, with a gold star. Similar to the Honor Patrol or Baden Powell Award Star, but this gold star was on the position patch.

Now I have viewed the Scouting.org website and found out it is another revision to the Scoutmaster Award of Merit, which was recently changed earlier this year.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-003_WB.pdf

I like the recognition. I like the checks and balances, which most every private organization club and community based organization has with goal-based benchmarks. There are requirements that demonstrate that a unit leader has a program for the Cub, Scout, Venturers in place. I agree with all the requirements for this award; but except requirement item 5, I have a difficult time with.

5. Effectively use the advancement method so that at least 60 percent of the units youth have advanced at least once during the last 12 months.

Completing item 5 seems easy for Cub Scouting, it still appears easy for Boy Scouting. But Venturing? As much as I promote program and advancement within my Crew. The achievements and recognition program is much more difficult than they are in the younger programs. In Venturing it is not even called advancement, there is no rank structure.

I believe I have commented in our forum before. I like the Bronze, Gold and Silver, but I would like to see an intermediate step between these awards. Without the Venturing Handbook in front of me right now, I believe it is 9 of 12 items required to complete any Bronze Award. I would like to see something similar to the belt loop program, where a Venturer completes 5 of any 9 mandatory items of the optional 12/13 items. Maybe not a belt loop; but at least an intermediate step towards the Bronze Award, with some type of regalia device.

But from my experience with some great teenage youth that have alot on their minds; the recognition of 6 out of 10 Venturing youth each year, is near impossible. They enjoy Venturing, but they (at least my Venturers) slowly participate in the Venturing recognition program. I am lucky to get twenty percent each year, sixty percent seems to be an unattainable goal for Venturers.

I like the Unit Leader Award of Merit. I like the goals. I just believe goal item 5 is too difficult for most Venturing Advisors. At least for me it is a monumental challenge. Similar to the parable "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". Myself, the Associate Advisors and Crew Officers offer a program that allows for the Bronze recognition, but it is up to the Venturers to want to achieve the recogntion.

Any Comments? Do your Venturing Crews attain 60 percent recognition each year? Or is it just me and my Crew that is lacking in statistics?

Am I crying too much? Or do you think national will listen and ease the requirements for Venturing Advisors if the goal is set just a little too high?

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

Jim,

Greetings again!

Yeah.. I've visit a few troops that had excellent basketball and football skills. My own troop was very well skilled at dodgeball for a few years back.

Thank goodness our SM and additional ASMs got our troop back on track years ago. Dodgeball is still fun, but now only for 10 minutes of our hour and a half meeting, and only once a month.

Again, good luck with you decisions and hopefully the boys will benefit from a better program!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Radioactive,

Greetings!

Allow me to tell you a little about my Crew. As you requested, Ill tell you a few stories then give my own advice.

I am a long time Scouter, and of course, I am a father (now of three grown adults). I am not an expert in teenage emotions, but I have some experience to relate to this topic.

I have had five sets of teenage couples dating within my Crew. Two of my former Venturers (a high school dating couple) recently graduated from college and were married two years ago.

Sometimes intimate moments and "couple" interaction is called public displays of affection or "PDA". PDA can make other Venturers feel uncomfortable.

My Crew has had some moments of drama. The worst that affected our Crew was just hours before a camporee. We had three adults and fifteen Venturers paid and registered to attend a district camporee. Two of my Venturers (a girlfriend and boyfriend) got into a jealous argument during the Friday school lunch period. They decided not to see each other or attend the camporee. By 5:00 p.m. Friday, less than five hours after their emotional breakdown, the remaining thirteen other Venturers had called to pull out of the camporee. It was a domino effect, one Venturer didnt want to attend if their friend wasnt attending, then the next Venturer didnt want to attend if their other friend wasnt attending, till none were attending. Leaving only three adults at 5:00 p.m.

What happened? By Sunday they made up, and they were back to mending their relationship making out on one of their parents' back porch.

The drama of two of my Venturers cost our Crew about 300 dollars in one weekend.

Now regarding all my Crew's dating couples. Before my Crew had these bylaws (which they agreed upon and wrote), it was "Mr Crew21Adv is being a real bummer". Until they realized that their overt familiarity was making other teenagers uncomfortable and driving away some Venturing youth from our program.

My Crew has very few bylaws that were decided by the youth(the Crew bylaws fit only half a sheet). But one of their important rules is to leave their personal relationships at the door. The wrote a line in and agree that "PDA" has no place during Venturing hours. Does everyone in the Crew know "couples" are dating? Certainly. Do their parents know they are dating? Yes, and they usually approve of their choices. Do these "couples" hold hands, take long walks, and etc during meetings. Nope, None of that. They can control their emotions for a couple of hours a week, and even for a weekend Scouting event.

Each year the Crew takes a look at our bylaws. Still only half a page, many of their rules are social behavioral rules. Not to hurt or disrespect others. They also agree they don't want other Venturers to feel awkward, while "couples" are getting too familiar during meetings. Even as young teenagers, they can understand that hand holding and petting can make others uncomfortable, and they can eventually understand that they can wait 2 hours (or longer).

You asked for advice. Here are my own thoughts.

As a parent and Venturing Crew Advisor, I would let your parents know, I would let the Advisor, Associate Advisors know. I would also let the Crew know. Maybe you and the guy can recommend an addition to your bylaws. But bottom line, keep a healthy couple relationship, but keep it out of Venturing events.

Myself and my fellow Advisors are okay with Intracrew Dating, as long as they keep the "dating" part outside of the meeting hours or weekend Venturing event. We havent had any social drama in the past four years, thanks to the mutual social agreements and our Crew Bylaws.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Jim,

Greetings!

Twocubdad said it well.

I have a Scouting buddy as a new ASM crossing over from a Pack. The troop he and his son choose appeared good from a few visits, but their procedures and methods were abbreviated. They did not believe in any meeting format, (no opening/closing or any middle) their meeting was to walk in the door and work on merit badges. After attending Specifics for Boy Scout Leaders and WB21C, he questioned some methods of that troop and was invited to leave at their next committee meeting.

Fellow Forum members, Scoutnut and wingnut also answered specifically. Rank cannot be repealed.

Seems like all troops will go thru peaks and valleys thru the Scouting year. From well behaved Scouts, to Scouts that fight and cause drama within a troop. Now regarding discipline, there are various ways to handle discipline. From restricting involvement in camping or outdoor events to removing a Scout from the charter.

The G2SS acknowledges this and only protects the Scout from harm by the adults (physical discipline or emotional harassment), but national BSA does not advise on how to discipline. It does state in the Advancement handbook that rank cannot be rescinded.

But you asked. Should I bring this up? I'd recommend yes, certainly. The troop committee and COR will either decide to abide by national BSA or continue doing things "their own way".

Also, Did the SM have the right to take away a rank from a Scout? No. Not to take away rank. Discipline, yes, maybe, within the guidelines of G2SS and knowledge of the committee; but not to remove rank.

NYLT has a lecture on Ethics during day three. There are various decisions that can be made, but eventually you (and your son, and the troop) will have to live with your decisions. Can you back up your decision? Do you have an alternative? (Another local troop to join or Lone Scouting)

Good Luck in your decision! Hopefully it improves the dealings within the troop! And, even if this Scout (and future Scouts) deserves discipline, it is administered appropriately.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Scoutgroove,

Greetings!

Eagle92 has commented already about ScoutNET2000. As I've been told many times, when ScoutNET2000 was purchase by national BSA, it wasn't the best database. Ten years ago, ScoutNET did maintain data on non advancement recognition/certification items, but disregarded other important items. That debate can be argued for a while.

As I've read and seen, about 2001-2002 National BSA opened up a bid for commercial databases to be compatible and approved by ScoutNET managers.

Regardless of how thorough your database may become, it should be compatible with national BSA. So ScoutNET compatibility is a major goal.

Troopmaster has a few various versions, but one of our local units enjoys their online storage and recovery. For one of our local units, the SM and all the ASMs can view a Scouts advancement status.

The ScoutSoft database is compatible for both IBM-PC and MAC.

So, comments and desires that I've heard from fellow leaders is an online database, down-loadable to a IPhone application, which protects privacy, matches ScoutNET and interfaces with both PC and MAC.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Lisabob,

My beliefs are.

For the past 3-4 years there is now a check list for Quality Lodge. Usually membership and work. The lodge and chapters should make this an annual goal.

Shortridge and Eagle92 gave good examples of service. There are always many more service jobs for Arrowmen to do.

I would say a good Lodge and Chapter would have a mixture of work and fun. A few hours of sweat and dirt, along with a few hours of video games and Mountain Dew (or whatever "sugar water" flavor of the day).

The Arrowmen should do some work for the local camp, and some high profile service projects. But it should also be a fun club to belong to. Arrowmen should want to belong and Scouts should desire to become First Class and be worthy of election.

What kinda fun. They do this by staying up later on the first night of Camporee. Getting the Ice Cream social at 10p.m. while all the other Scouts are heading to their tents. Getting the video game room, after a long day of serving at the winter camp. Various ideas similar to this, where the Arrowmen serve but also have fun.

I don't want to say they should be elitist. There should not be an "in your face" attitude. But Arrowmen should work a little bit more harder than the next Scout and also have more fun, that sets them apart.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Sherminator505,

Greetings!

Got a yes and no answer. To start off; No, Scouts in Venture Patrols within troops are not allowed to work on Venturing Awards. However sort of, Yes, there is a unique recognition that Venture Patrol Scouts can earn, that regular Scouts nor Venturers are not eligible for.

The programs in the BSA have contradicted their own literature time after time, but even recently per the centennial inspection sheet, Venture Patrol Boy Scouts are eligible to wear a Venture Letter and thus earning the Venture Letter and thus earning Varsity Pins on the Venture Letter.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34283.pdf

In the early 90's. When the Venture Patrol program began, there was additional high adventure recognition emblems (not on the traditional advancement trail), which Boy Scouts in the Venture Patrol, within a Boy Scout Troop, could earn. It added as an added incentive for older Scouts to remain in a troop. As only Venture Patrol Scouts could earn these pins.

http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Venture_Patrol_Activity_Pins

http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Venture_Patrol_Letter

In the early 90's, there was a series of Venture Patrol Pins pamphlets, about the size of a Mert Badge pamphlet. Similar to the older Cub Scout Sports and Academic Belt Loops handbooks.

By the mid-90's the Venture Patrol Activity Pins became the Varsity and Venture Patrol Activity Pins.

Then again, by the time Venturing BSA debuted. The literature has changed, and for a while it seemed a Varsity Activity Pin could only be earned by a Scout enrolled in a Varisty Team.

Who can currently earn a Varsity Pin and What youth program is eligible to conduct a Varsity Pin program. These similar questions has been offered to Scouting Magazine a few times.

A current question to be asked, Why have a Venture Patrol if there is nothing special they can do or earn.

So it seems, that although few Venture Patrol Scouts participate in this program today, they are still eligible to earn these additional Varsity Activity Pin recognitions.

Also, not an award but a leadership class. As of 2010 Venturers can attend NYLT, and wear the NYLT compass patch. I believe as of 2008, 13 y/o Boy Scouts (Venture Patrol or not) are allowed to attend KODIAK, and wear the KODIAK Medallion.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

eolesen,

Greetings!

There are many amateur lawyers. But if you are asking for an opinion, I would not conduct a drug sniffing dog at the crew-level, just prior to a trek, without the youths/parents knowledge.

Here is my opinion..

The laws have changed about "probable cause", about 10 years ago. Your local police station, as law enforcement officers are trained in "probable cause".

Obviously, An Advisor has a responsibility to the entire Crew, the youth and their parents. That other Venturing youth do not first-time experiment with recreational drugs or that they are offered, during a Venturing event.

As an Advisor, if you were wrong, and wrongly searched a youth's backpack and trail equipment, could you be held liable for slander? Also, if you were correct, but ignored the anonymous tip and did nothing, and then a youth Venturer offered recreational drugs to other Venturers. Would you be held liable?

A few years ago, within my own troop. One 17 y/o Eagle brought hard liquor in his own car to a campout. Later that evening, my Scoutmaster, discovered the boys hiding place and drinking game about 30-45 minutes into their disappearance. Five Life Scouts, had finished six bottles and were well intoxicated and nauseated, by the end of the hour. The Scoutmaster drove all the boys home to their parents that night; with urgent committee meetings held that Monday. Finger pointing and arguments occurred during that committee meeting. Although it was secretly planned by the older youth, it caused many, many problems within the troop and community.

My Crew has invited a health/drug counselor to regular meetings. The counselor brings "drunk goggles" and other simulation devices. (writing your name on a paper with the opposite hand, with one eye closed, while trying to drink a glass of water, etc).

I have heard of a High School assembly, where the local police and K9 unit demonstrated the ability of their dogs. Five bags of marijuana (wrap in cellophane, and put in tube socks), were specifically distributed to the senior class officers, once the dog identified them they were to drop the bag for the dogs to retrieve back to the assembly stage. The assembly was pretty well thought out, to demonstrate the danger of drugs, and the grand finale the K9 scenario was equally well staged to demonstrate that drugs are illegal and you will get caught. At the end of the assembly, the K9 dogs brought back all five "staged" bags, plus four extra similar "dime" bags.

So, in my opinion. Do you offer a safe environment for all Venturers and Parents? I would say, Yes. Do you conduct a narcotics check, without their knowledge? I would say, No.

Without their knowledge, is my own personal disagreement.

Could you offer them amnesty? Submit to inspection, or you may refuse; but refusal will disqualify you from the trek.

Your COR should probably have a no drug policy and/or rehabilitation policy within their institution. Your COR and local law enforcement, and possibly even the High School principal can advice on probable cause and inspections without their consent.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Eggerskf,

Greetings and welcome to the forum!

My troop that I serve. We have six month terms. Jan-Jun, Jul-Dec. Though the leadership may possibly be re-elected.

I also serve a crew. They have decided a one year term. July thru June, to follow the traditional school year.

Both terms seem to work fine with my troop and crew.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Jamboree Scouters,

Yeah.. I was an ASM during the 2005. The 2005 Jamboree Food Service Group had some pretty decent planning to really facilitate convenience. The meals did not require alot of cooking, it was mainly warming. The Jamboree Food Service Group was well aware, that troops cannot easily substitute a raw or burnt meal. Alot of good planning, with unfortunately one error.

The still half-raw fried chicken was an error on the contracted caterer. It angered many participants, but it was not the fault of the Jamboree staff; and a substitute was provided in time.

The lunch contract was in error though. They briefed that they had 9 kiosk lunches (arrival day and 8 program days), but they had actually contracted just for 8. (Arrival day and 7 program days). I don't think the Jamboree food staff was actually aware of the contract error until the morning of the final program day.

On the final day program day 8, An hour after 0900, the start of the program day and departure from the campsites, most all the Scouts were on the streets exploring the last day of Jamboree. Around 1100 on the final day, the Subcamp Commissioner staff and Subcamp Commissary staff came running thru announcing the lunch contracted ended the day before (program day 7) and there would be no Lunch Kiosk on the final program day 8. It was too late to recall the Scouts, and have them pack whatever snacks they could grab.

That evening, the Scouts happily devoured the dinner meal on the final night of Jamboree.

But my bottom line. The food issue was good, the subcamp commissary (fellow Scouters) was professional, and the Scouts were able to cook and KP without any problems. Just 1 disappointment out of 27 meals.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

Crossramwedge,

Greetings!

In 2005, the breakfast and dinner meal were issue and pick up from the subcamp commissary. (within walking distance), but the cook/asst cook need to pick up on time. Box Lunch was an individual pick up from any one of the nearby lunch issue commissary kiosk.

The food issue did not require cooking, only warming.

In 2005, At least on one day, fried chicken was on the menu to be delivered for dinner. The contracted kitchen did not prepare it thoroughly. The Jamboree food inspectors found the fried chicken to be slightly raw and uncooked. But the DOD and U.S. Army stepped in and provided a squad meal (8-10 person).

So a SM/ASM team would have to be concerned about a fair duty roster, but the KP would probably work more than the cooks.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

p475,

Greetings!

You've receive some excellent advice.

Here is what I would recommend as a recruiting give-away. In some of the older Cub Scout handbooks (I believe it was the Cub Scout Leader How-To Book), there is a Yoke Puzzle. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/hispanic/english/33832_WEB.pdf

The Yoke Puzzle attract attention, cheap, and easy to make. Craft sticks, plastic craft lacing, and small washers.

First allow them to make it themselves. Though, if the young boys just cannot manipulate the puzzle or tie off the ends of the lacing, and Scout Leader can quickly set it up.

Predrill the craft sticks, and write your Pack webpage, pack email, or phone number.

Probably have a few dozen puzzles ready to hand out to the Tiger cub age, those that just cannot manipulate the equipment to build the puzzle.

Make sure your Den Leaders and most of your Scouts know how to solve the puzzle. So that the can teach customers the solution, after a few minutes of challenge.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv