Crew21_Adv

BadenP and Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

It wasn't my intention to imply that your Venturers or all Venturers needed hours of intense of Adult Intervention.

The agenda of my post was; when a Crew is started or before a Crew is started, it is usually community adults that decide to start a crew, not teenagers that do not know about Scouting/Venturing yet. The Previous post before this thread was inquiring about a Chartering Organization starting a Venturing Crew and attracting teenagers from the community.

Basement seemed to comment about a Chartering Organization starting a Crew,

Is this the youths idea or an adult??????

If it is something that the youth buy into and are excited about then pursue it...

Certainly a teenager has to become interested in Venturing to join a Crew, but as it was asked earlier. What does it take to start a Crew? I believe it is more than teenagers approaching and adult asking an adult to be their Advisor and going to a local institution and asking that institution to be a Chartering Organization so the teenager can become Venturers. I believe parents approach an institution, create a crew, then attract teenagers into a program.

Regarding Adult Intervention.

My Venturers are great teenagers. Mine are 14-17. Most are not Boy Scouts, most have not attended any other leadership forum. They are very willing to attend, work, and learn. But they are very reluctant to assume leadership.

Year after year, my crew seems to have alot of followers, and maybe on occasion a stand out leader. But when I ask "What do you want to do?", the response I seriously receive is; "I don't know", "Anythings fine", and "What did we do last year?".

Again, mine are good teens, the seem to follow or go any where, but when I ask, "Can one of you assume the lead?" I seem to receive alot of silence. My Crew is overseas, and not in the convenience of an American big city or average suburb. Some Scouting event which would be considered easy projects, can be a little more challenging or more costly to coordinate.

Even recently, our President and Vice President Program have assigned Activity chairs for events on the calendar. Humorously, that seems to be when parents email stating their child has too much homework and cannot lead or attend an event the President or VP Program assigns them.

So I did not mean to offend or create a blanket statement about your Venturers or all Venturers. I hope my Venturers were as mature and ready to lead as many of my Venturing Advisor colleagues here on the forum. I just wished my own Venturers would take the lead away from me and my Associate Advisors.

As I said, boy it would take a cup of coffee or two, to explain the amount of times I've ask them to assume leadership, for a "drop-off" parent out of nowhere to cancel an event just hours before go time.

On the positive, since NYLT opened up to Venturers, my Crew has a Scoutership for a Venturers to attend NYLT and develop leadership techniques to bring back to our Crew.

On the downside, the Venturer (my former VP Program 2010) which took the Scoutership and went to NYLT, quit a month after attending the 2011 NYLT course.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

OGE and Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

Skimming over this post, I agree.

Ideally the youth will begin to demonstrate leadership and eventually state what their goals are. But it will probably be a community based organization, social club, professional association, or church, that will see a need for Scouting within their community.

As smart and bright as some 14 year olds are; I just don't see them meeting in the park after school and formulating a plan to approach the Junior Achievement, Boys and Girls Club, Pathfinders, Campfire USA, 4H, Future Farmers of America, or the Boy Scouts of America and shopping for which program will satisfy their educational needs and moments of boredom.

I do envision a few parents of teenagers; gathering, comparing and shopping for a sports, recreation or educational program that will challenge their teenaged children.

I do envision a few community based institutions, identifying the same outreach opportunity.

Maybe the best answer might be Venturing BSA, maybe not.

As far as how much adult intervention should be allowed? That is a conversion over a cup of coffee. It may take a while.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Qwazse,

Greetings again!

Yes. They are a good group of Scouts and Venturers. (My Venturers need to lead and camp just a little bit more, to develop what they learn though).

I support council training, but has Journey to Excellence is now grading unit leadership training, (if a unit conducts ILST or ILSC), I desire my Venturers to concentrate the ILSC closer to home, which will increase attendance.

Then during Venturing gatherings and events, I highly encourage attendace at council Venturing functions. Just no longer the ILSC.

Hopefully it works well for you.. Just have different expectations out of the different age groups of Scouts and Venturers, that is my biggest advice/comment.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

Qwazse and Fellow Scouters and Venturers,

Greetings! WOW Good questions!

I'll bite, and I'll provide my opinion from my perspective.

Specifically, with my Crew and Troop that I serve, and also other Scouting friends that I know in the neighborhood. All of our Scouting units are independent of each other. It seems like with all of the neighborhood Packs, Troops and Crews, none have the same chartering organizations or same meeting nights. We do have siblings between Packs and Troops. We do have a few multiples between Scouting and Venturing, but the units/committees/finances/COR are still independent.

Before ILSC, my local council has desired to conduct VLSC as a council event (to boost participation in Venturing). Each year, I would conduct VLSC within the Crew and then encourage my Venturers to staff the council VLSC.

As ILSC has come out and changed the format, I have discouraged this specific council level training event. I agree they should rally together for some council level teenaged fun & learning, but no longer a council ILSC. The nature of ILSC now is to have Venturers brainstorm and become leaders, not only to think about adventurous ideas, but plan, schedule, fundraise, and attend a crew program. I continue to invite any other crew to my crew's ILSC, but discourage my crew from attending any further council level ILSC. I fully support that a Venturer should attend ILSC within their own Crew, then highly encourage the Venturing Officers to attend NYLT.

So now you have a little of my Venturing/Scouting relationships.

ILSC has been with us for just over a year. ILST just this past Summer. So both training are fairly new. From reading thru both literature they appear to be the same.

Over a period of time, I usually see the younger Scouts 11-14 attending leadership training seminars (JLT, TLT, ILST). I would prefer better attendance from the 14-17 Life Scouts and Eagle Scouts, but they have homework, sports, or work, plus they sat thru the same seminar 3-4 times already.

The attendance of a combined class, may have 11-12 year old boys, sitting with 14-16 year old girls. Not a problem, just know that a class may have a variety of different maturity and experience.

Still over a period of time, I've noticed, the boys understand the patrol method. Duty Roster, KP, etc. Sometimes really good, sometimes fairly poorly. But they understand it. My Crew of boy and girl Venturers with occasional multiple registered Scout, have a difficult time with Crew method. Although the Officers are given backpacks and binders with the appropriate forms, the backpack and forms fail to make it out to events. My President (and past presidents) is usually re-writing the duty roster on Friday night, at a camporee, the KP falls apart, etc. They are good teenagers, but haven't had much experience with "the Patrol method".

On occasion, I have seen the everyone will cook and everyone will clean turn into mom doing the dishes. (I think Ive seen other forum discussions about helicopter parents); if I didnt need these parents for transportation, I would tell them to take a long hike. When I am in charge of an event, my Venturers follow a Crew plan that the create during a meeting. Although it always seems to be re-written (GRRRR!), but it is done by their elected officer.

That being said. After ILST, I would expect a Scout to serve as a Patrol Leader or Senior Patrol Leader (or any other leadership position). I would hope that I could sit back and relax with a cup of camp coffee.

After ILSC, I would expect a Venturer to serve as a Venturing Officer or Activity Chair. WOW, I would really like to sit back and enjoy my cup of coffee.

Seems like with my Crew, I have a lot of "HEY Mr Crew21_ADV! I need help!". I usually ask, "Didn't you attend the Crew Officers Seminar and our last ILSC?", as my coffee gets cold.

So, after all that. My thoughts are that it could be beneficial to combine a ILST/ILSC, just the way NYLT has opened to Venturers attendance. As long as you (and your neighborhood Scoutmaster) have open minds and different outcome expectations from the youth in the troop and crew, both during the class and after the class.

Further, if you have dual enrolled "multiples", if they are serving their Crew. If they are successfully planning, communicating, and executing a plan within the Crew. Heck yeah, they are leading their crew. I would definitely give them the Trained patch.

Good Luck and Hopefully your Scouts and Venturers become great leaders!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Taser,

Greetings!

You've received mixed advice. I agree, it is not appropriate for adults to compete against the youth. But for only a few minutes, the youth do like to see which Scoutmaster (or adult) has some hidden talents, with a lot of show and cheering. I have seen, participated in and hosted a few Summer Camp Friday afternoon (after all the MB are completed and before closing campfire) Scoutmasters' Belly Flop Contest. The Scouts love the show.

Some adult leaders are real characters, but never get to entertain. Some Scouts want to see their leader out-perform other Scout leaders (in friendly compeitition). During recent camporees, my district has held Scoutmasters Got Talent or District(name)IDOL as an intro to the campfire, they tell Jay Leno/David Letterman monologue jokes, play the guitar or perform quick simple skit. All the performances together total maybe 5-6 minutes. Then the winner is identified by the loudest cheer, and given a wooden cane as a prize. The Scouts do seem to enjoy cheering on all the leaders.

But like your other advice. Make it appropriate, make it brief, and don't compete adults against youth.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

JM and Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

On a few topics.

I used to attempt ultra light backpacking; but over the years, I've become a creature of comfort and now I tailgate it. Now, two of my Associate Advisors like to go ultra-light, one carries a small alcohol stove and he says it is good enough for he and his wife to boil water and make ramen noodles. He enjoys his alcohol stove and endorses it, if handled safely.

Regarding G2SS, Buffalo Skipper and other fellow Scouters already commented on an alcohol and lighter fluid events with tragic results. Till recently, the G2SS had bolded text, which should be followed absolutely, and regular text which were guidelines. Now the recently published G2SS has not bolded text and all the guidelines should be followed diligently.

During my local IOLS and BALOO classes, they call one of my topics "Crew21 Gloom and Doom Speech", aka the G2SS. My fellow leaders are attentive and respectful, and can appreciate it when I put a spin on it. Most of my fellow leaders are somewhat experienced in the outdoors, but most never considered safety or the absolute worst case scenarios. Scouting has an outstanding outdoor program and very safe program comparably. But sadly, youth and adults have died while Scouting. From drownings, shootings, falls, cuts and burns. I don't think any Scouts have frozen to death, but a few have lost fingers and toes to frostbite during unit level scouting events.

I joke that the original G2SS was a two page memo, but accidents (and fatalities) do happen and now we have pages and pages of safety policies. But we shouldn't bubble-wrap and shelter our Scouts either. Just be aware, be adventurous, and identify when something is unsafe or horribly against G2SS policies.

I don't know if BSA will change their policy on laser tag and paintball. But for summer camp and outdoor programs, I believe National BSA was piloting a safe program using jet skis and 4x4 quads; and finding if they could be safely be brought into Scouting.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

Fellow WB'rs,

Congrats Basement!!

Next time I look over someone's ticket completion, now I'll make them suffer! Haha, just joking.

I'm looking for an accomplishment, beyond just being a parent or just being a leader (extra body standing there). If they served 5 youth, I am happy. If they served 500 youth, I am really happy!

Just my opinion.....

But back to Basement, seriously, a Huge Congratulations and keep earning your beads every Scouting day!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

AK,

Greetings!

Over the years I have participated in FOS. Some years greater, some years less.

No nonsense about it, the DE and some district/council volunteers, have asked for money.

Not every family is financially able to participate. Not a problem. Scouting doesn't need their money so much to create a burden on a family.

Although, Some families are financially able to contribute, they do not understand where the FOS money is used. It does help to know why and where the money goes to. During the FOS campaign, DEs and Vol's attempt to explain the income and expenditures in 30 seconds. Meanwhile joking about lost arrows far out in the woods and all those BB's in the grassy field; but after some explanation most families can see there are expenditures and that FOS compliments the council store income.

It is good to be explained the average program cost of a Scout thru a year; and establish an average donation request. I have been in councils that conducted FOS but had no tokens of appreciation. Meanwhile I have been in other councils that sent an FOS member a $2 patch for contributing $100. Scouting families (and sometimes unit committees and parents) can appreciate tokens or discounts when they allow an FOS campaign in their unit.

Back to your question.

Is this typical? Yes, setting monetary goals per Scout (or per family with multiple Scouts) seems to be typical. I've never seen a different goal amount between Cubs and Scouts though. Typically I have seen a discount at camp being presented more like, if 50 percent of the unit contributes at the recommended family amount.

If your DE is setting a target amounts, Im not shocked. If your DE is requesting 100 percent participation from all families before offering an incentive, Then WOW! I would really be shocked! Times must really be getting tough.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Wedge,

Greetings!

If I may offer an opinion and comments...

Since the video is not of him, and posted to his personal networking page (and not a group social network page belonging to the troop), may I assume it was of a comedian using vulgar language to make fun of interracial dating?

I agree, once information is electronic it is published out there, saved on a server, sitting in an email queue, etc, etc. If it is posted to a social network website it makes that information even more proliferated. Just ask some politicians. They have taken measures to hide information, while news media have taken measures to expose information. (i.e. Donna Rice, and many other recent expose').

If I may reflect on myself. When I was 16, I thought I was a fairly good kid. I thought I had good moral values. And then gradually, it seemed more acceptable to drop the F-Bomb more frequently, on occasion in front of my parents and adults. My vulgar vocabulary probably grew, at the age of 17 when I became independent. I felt more grown up using vulgarity. I used vulgar language very liberally till maybe the age of 22. From my mid 20's till today, I regret using foul language at inappropriate times, what I would give to just turn back the clock and not have used language like that. But it's in my past, and all I can do is say that I am embarrassed by my actions and for family/friends to please ignore my choice of language during that stage of life. I certainly wish that a role model would have pointed out the differences between positive character development and bad decisions. Maybe I would have dropped the F Bomb a couple of times, rather than a couple of hundred times. I can tell you, I regret my choice of language in my late teens, early twenties. I cannot shame your SPL; I can offer to him that I made bad decisions with my choice of language and decisions that I regret.

Do I still know vulgar language? Yes. Do I still use vulgarity? I certainly hope not. I've posted similar comments in this forum before regarding Scouts and adults cursing. My own children are all grown now, and I have told this to them repetitively. If you hear me using cursing now, bring the first aid box quickly, I probably cut myself.

Back to your SPL's decision. If it was a comedian on the video, your SPL probably thought it was humorous enough to share. In NYLT the evening of day three, there is a topic about decisions Good vs Good, Good vs Bad, and Trivial decisions. Although the NYLT scenarios are not this extreme, some boys need to start learning that they will arrive at character development crossroads when they have a decision to make, and the convenient easy road may be to make a bad decision. Stealing a video game CD, downloading a pirated movie or dropping the F-Bomb.

ScoutNut has given excellent advice and I'm sure you will receive many more advising comments. Illustrating that the SPL will be responsible for more increasing decisions. That his decisions will have a more dynamic effect on his life, that they did when he was an 11 y/o Tenderfoot. That his decisions in life in the next few years; at 20, at 25, and at 30 will have more increasingly significant consequences. Some will not be favorable and some will be very costly. Then advise the SPL to seek out a positive role model, inquire with him, who he wants to be like.

Finally, today I cannot remember who said it. I believe it may have been Dale Carnegie; but a motivational speaker and public personality once said that a person should write their gravesite epitaph today. To think out 70 years from now and how you want people to remember you, and then live your life backwards from now on, towards that goal.

Hopefully, the SPL will learn something about sharing vulgar video to such a broad network and will work to maintain a higher standard of character development.

Good Luck!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings again!

I think only few of us are stating that this situation should be conducted carefully for all parties. Not condemning the Scout nor the adults.

For Engineer. "And yes... 5 adults on 1 child discussing the child's sexual orientation IS an inquisition. The child is defenseless in that scenario."

I cannot speak for scoutmom or any others, but I nearly agree with you. A questioning on sexual orientation is uncalled for. Should they question how the boy feels or what he thinks? I agree, no. Should the adult leadership ask him about what he said or what he has done, I would say that is called for.

Given the opportunity to be there and review the behavior of the adult leadership. If I knew those leaders violated, humiliated, or degraded the Scout, I would ask them for their resignation. But only reading the emotional opinion of another parent with quotations things that may or may not have been said. I would not condemn them yet.

The forum was told by an emotional parent of another Scout, that was not inside the meeting. "We are investigating your sexuality." The OP was not in that meeting, but has quoted these leaders. Instigating a riot, and now many of our forum members have already condemned these leaders. None of us know what was said in that meeting, but forum members have condemned the adult leaders as being corrupt and hostile.

Additionally OP stated that the adults are going to "make sure" the Scout hasn't done or said inappropriate things to other scouts on campouts. How did the adult leaders learn of that something was said or something was done.

Were the adult leaders told that this Scout done or said something inappropriate? They must have been. Who told the Scout leadership of this Life Scouts statement and possible behavior? Was it a Scout or another parent, were there more than one Scout or more parents that have brought a concern to the adult leaders? We (the forum members) don't know if it was one Scout or most of the troop and parents.

If the adult leaders were told by other Scouts or possibly concerned parents in the troop that this Scout had done something inappropriate. Could they be held responsible for ignoring it?

Many of our forum members have condemned the adult leaders to conducting an "inquisition". Again I say, let's treat this Scout with respect and also treat the adults with the same respect. I would support that the adult leadership are responsible for providing a safe environment for the entire troop.

Again. Hopefully the adult leadership of this troop is mature enough to use sound judgement with this Scout and these events.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

Not that jtswestark exactly agrees with me. But I believe JT believes in a safe environment for everyone.

To shortridge, Saying "I am _________" is misbehavior? I would say possibly so. It is a statement that a Scout made, and currently it is only a statement. Was the boy lying, was the boy joking, was the boy honest? I don't know. Shouldn't someone determine if it was a joke, a comment, or a serious declaration.

A hypothetical situation for this forum. But I have known Boy Scouts who have been caught by drug sniffing dogs in the schools. Would the parents of other Scouts want a Boy that smokes narcotics at school to be camping with their boy? Would the Scoutmaster with knowledge and keeping the information confidential, be responsible to the parents and families of all the boys in the troop, if that one boy brought narcotics to camp?

How about the misbehavior of the boys who taunted and teased this Scout?

Similarly, the boys who taunted and teased. I hoped that I made myself clear. Youth protection is for all youth. Their behavior is not consistent with Scouting values. If they need to be removed from the troop to end harassment, they should also be removed.

I would hope that this Life Scout is (or was) treated with dignity and respect. Similarly, I hope that no Scoutmaster or ASMs which are attempting to create a safe environment, are lynched by angry crowds that have only heard(read) one opinion.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

It seems that most of our forum members believe that Youth Protection Guidelines exist only to protect youth from adults. This is only partially true. It is there to protect youth from adults. It also exist to protect youth from other youth. Youth or adults may be predatory, youth or adults may be bullies, youth or adults may experiment with narcotics or alcohol.

I certainly hope that five adults did not beat up and humiliate a Scout. But many of our forum members have chosen to insult and become angry at five adult leaders, and have only heard one side of the story, which is well spun. If five adult leaders have done that, they would not be leaders for very long. But within a matter of hours, our Scouters Forum has developed a lynch mob, only reading about one view.

Equally. I believe that no Scout/Venturer should be bullied, harassed, humiliated. That simply should not happen.

However, regarding any Scout/Venturer that may be predatory against other youth. Explaining to a Troop or Crew Committee, Chartering Organization or worse the parents of a Scout/Venturer that their child had been offended or molested by another youth whom was heard stating "I am bisexual", that too would "would go over as well as a turd in a punch bowl.".

All Scouts and Ventures should be safe.

I am not against this specific Life Scout. But I seriously do hope that their troop is a safe atmosphere for all Scouts. All of them. I do find it humorous how the forum has such anger towards adult leaders, that are attempting to maintain a safe haven for their troop. Many of our forum members have become so angered, but they have only read the opinion of 5yearscouter.

If there is an issue that is threatening other youth inside of your troop or crew. Would you really ignore it?

Per the G2SS. The publications itself says that it cannot be ignored.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Per G2SS

Youth Member Behavior Guidelines

The Boy Scouts of America is a values-based youth development organization that helps young people learn positive attributes of character, citizenship, and personal fitness. The BSA has the expectation that all participants in the Scouting program will relate to each other in accord with the principles embodied in the Scout Oath and Scout Law.

One of the developmental tasks of childhood is to learn appropriate behavior. Children are not born with an innate sense of propriety and they need guidance and direction. The example set by positive adult role models is a powerful tool for shaping behavior and a tool that is stressed in Scouting.

Misbehavior by a single youth member in a Scouting unit may constitute a threat to the safety of the individual who misbehaves as well as to the safety of other unit members. Such misbehavior constitutes an unreasonable burden on a Scout unit and cannot be ignored.

Member Responsibilities

All members of the Boy Scouts of America are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Physical violence, hazing, bullying, theft, verbal insults, and drugs and alcohol have no place in the Scouting program and may result in the revocation of a Scouts membership in the unit.

Fellow Scouters and 5yearscouter,

Greetings!

I concur with some of the questions Eagle92 and SP have brought up.

In today's environment everyone is afraid of liable and innuendos. While the Scouts orientation is in question; I am glad there were five adult leaders interviewing the Scout, rather than just one or two. If it was a one on one session Scoutmaster to youth, I would be extremely alarmed. If this were a Board of Review with five adults and one scout, would we even be concerned.

I would hope five adult leaders, which should be trained, selected by their committee, Troop Committee Chair, Chartering Organization and approved by the District Executive, would be capable to discuss topics with a youth in a normal and calm manner. I personally would be upset with leaders that would bring a youth up in front of the entire troop as an open door policy and asked a Scout if he yelled at one of the bullies one day after hearing them talking about him in the laundry room, "I'm not gay, I'm bisexual" [insert other colorful language here] was true.

In this post we use the terms "grilling" and "inquisition", those are hostile words. Do we know the meeting was handled in a hostile manner? No, we don't.

SeattlePioneer even said "I have to point out that all those condemning the actions of the troop leadership are operating on the basis of gossip themselves."

I also don't know of any 17 y/o that refers to their parents (mother or father) as mommy and daddy. I think in communication definitions and the news media that is called "Spinning".

I personally have never been told that BSA is against homosexuals and bisexuals. Though, I have been told that alternative sexual orientation is an exclusion to the membership policy.

One of the biggest things I do concur with most everyone's advice here in the forum, is to seek out the guidance from a professional Scouter. The District Executive, then the Council Scout Executive. The professionals qualifications is to be non-biased, but provide guidance and sometimes execute national policy (removal of anyone, youth or adult, that violates safety and youth protection). The professional Scouters duty is to protect the rights and integrity of all of the scouts and all of the leaders in your troop.

Beyond 5yearscouters disappointment of how the proceedings were conducted. 5yearscouter asked the following questions.

Youth protection boundaries anyone? If the Scout was bullied, his youth protection boundaries were disregarded. If the Scout calmly discussed his Summer Camp statement that he made, with the troop adult leaders; no, I dont see violation.

How can an adult investigate a minor's sexuality? After a boy makes a statement, a board of review is a good start. Shouldnt the leadership adults be responsible for the safety of all the boys in the troop.

How would your troop handle a rumor of a bisexual scout? It wouldnt be ignored. First seek guidance from Commissioners or Professional staff. Second, determine the cause of the rumor, is it a true statement or is the false rumor. Lies and false rumors have no place in Scouting, Scouts and parents not abiding by the Twelve Points of the Scout Law will be reminded. True statements though, should be investigated further, which is needed to provide a safe environment for all the Scouts.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

deaker, Fellow WB Staffers and Fellow NYLT Staffers,

Greetings!

Only a few comments. Like Eammon and moosetracker stated. Usually WB and NYLT staff are invited. Most every staffer accepts an offer to staff, but I don't think many volunteer. Maybe its your terminology. It does no harm to offer you availability to the course directors "I'm here if you need me"; but don't state your volunteering to be on their staff "I'm here, cause you definately need my help".

Now regarding your question; the current WB21C is a cross of Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting and Venturing, a demonstration of an year long annual program, all delivered in five days, while learning five tools and additional principles. Five days, covering three genres of programs.

NYLT is Boy Scouting and Venturing, demonstrating a month long program of the activities of a troop (not a crew) while learning leadership, planning and communication principles in five days. "The life of an average troop in a month"

In NYLT, they look up to the few adult staffers as a role model. The NYLT adult staff should have experience working with 11-18 year old Boy Scouts and 13-21 Venturers. From my recall, there is only one lesson conducted by the SM during NYLT, all the remaining lessons are Boy Scout/Venturer led. Though the adult NYLT Staff may comment on ocassion and ask how learning is progressing while visiting the patrols during meals.

Understanding what happens at NYLT would be good. To appeciate that Scouts should go to their Patrol Leader, and the Patrol Leader should go to their Senior Patrol Leader. To understand that there is a program, and sometimes an ASPL-Programs. To understand that the scribe actually writes and issues out Brownsea Bulletins (like the Gilwell Gazzette), to see Patrol Spirit, Cheers, Flags, and to see a Patrol work together, whom didn't know each other 2-3 days earlier. These are all important.

But attending NYLT as a Cub Scout Leader, I think you would best serve is an assistant working for an ASM, working for a QM. I trust you would be fast learner taking on Cubmaster; but your oldest is 10 maybe, and you probably don't have much experience talking to 48 15-16 year olds. Essentially, silent but present, and learn how to communicate and guide youth leaders. You should definately make yourself available for NYLT staff, but maybe after one son is already a Boy Scout.

Hopefully the Course Directors observe your availability, bring you onboard, and use your talents.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Scoutmaster T3 and Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

Here are my thoughts. I concur with Scoutfish comments. It is hazing and bullying, but verbally. They gave the CIT an insulting nickname, and made a bad choice in doing so. What they are probably thinking is funny and hilarious (and harmless) nickname, is damaging and offensive.

My own troop had a brief event of bullying, 12 y/o's and 11 y/o's. It was the younger patrol that erred in judgement. By the next meeting after the campout the program agenda was cancelled, and the SPL presented the course on Bullying from Scouting.org website to the entire troop boys, adult leaders, committee, and parents. It happens; and I would like to say, it was brief, it was correct, and hopefully it will be a long while before it happens again.

Does a 15-16 know they are causing harm and serious hurting a 14 y/o CIT? Nope! Although they can be great Life/Eagle Scouts with nearly stellar records, they can occasionally make a really stupid error.

Contacting the Camp Director is the correct move. I expect all the older counselors are good kids, but they definitely need to be educated and make amends to this counselor in training.

I've been a parent, a Scout leader and a Summer Camp Staffer. I think a good Camp Director could tell, if they meant to be harmful or if they made a sincere stupid error. I expect a good Director could tell if an apology is sincere or vain. If the Camp Director doesn't correct the problem and align their team, they won't be Camp Director for much longer. In the next few days, ask your Scout if the insulting nickname are still continuing, or if they ceased and he actually feels like part of the team.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

George Az,

My answer. It is kinda similar to other Fraternities. You are an Arrowman. The real question is, are you an active dues paying member, or a former (no longer active) member. Most of the time, the chapter chief, lodge chief and advisor(s), will desire some written proof or descriptive proof that you were once a member.

Bringing former members back as they become Scouting parents is becoming fairly common.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

Fellow Scouters and Trainers,

Greetings!

Please help me with this.

I am a seasoned Scouter and a long time Council and District Trainer and Training Chair. I was asked this question a few weeks ago. First let me set the background, then I will pose the question(s). As a District Trainer, I have developed the stance that I cannot control Scouters. (Similar to you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink). I can offer training throughout the year. I can advertise, encourage, etc; but I cannot get them from their home or work, and set them in the learner seat at the training event. So this post is less about required training, more about recent standards in outdoor events.

Now for the background. During planning for a recent unit event; the Scoutmaster and our normal crew of experienced Assistant Scoutmasters just were not able to obtain the time to make a specific weekend outdoor event. We did have a few new committee members and a couple of new ASMs, which are parents of the younger boys that could obtain the time for this event. I have no doubt about their basic competency or leadership of these recent troop parents. I do Most all were committee members and den leaders 6 months to 2 years ago in Cub Scouting.

All of them had YPT, but that was about it. Another Assistant Scoutmaster asked, if they needed the entire focus of SM/ASM training; YPT, Fast Start, NLE or TIS, SM/ASM Specs, and IOLS; in order to be the adults on a troop outdoor event. It had been years since we did not have fully trained team of SM/ASM on campouts. But for this upcoming event, we had new ASMs and Committee that had basic YPT. So I replied "let me check".

I went to the recent (Feb 2011) edition of the G2SS, and also the newest Tour Plan form. I looked at "What Makes a Trained Leader" pdf file on Scouting.org. I'll admit, I did not go digging thru my older versions of G2SS nor the older tour permits. I did not go back and review the recharter requirements, but I believe recharter training is at the least focused on satisfying YPT.

Now for a trained adult leader to earn and wear the trained strip and to satisfy the quality requirements for Journey to Excellence, a SM/ASM requires the YPT, Fast Start, NLE or TIS, SM/ASM Specs, and IOLS. Of course I certainly support and believe in these standards.

What did I find in my reading of the G2SS and new Tour Plan. For an outdoor event, certain supplemental/advanced training is required, but Specifics and IOLS are not.

Obviously, you want Specifics and IOLS to deliver a safe outdoor educational program to the Scouts. But for a unit (like mine) where 6-7 of our trained experienced leadership just not make this trip, but 6-7 of our newest ASM/Committee members could attend, what was the minimum training required.

It looked like our newest members needed, YPT, Weather Hazards, and for this event, Safe Swim Defense, Safety Afloat and an experienced/skilled canoeing instructor (parent or contract guide). I could not find that they needed IOLS, which the other ASM and I could have sworn was on older versions of the tour permits. Cub Scout Leaders do need BALOO on the Tour Plan, but I did not see IOLS for Boy Scout Leaders.

So after all that background, here are my questions to the forum, to make sure I am valid.

A "What makes a Trained Leader" fully trained SM/ASM requires, either YPT, SMF I, II, III or YPT, FS, NLE/TIS, Specifics, IOLS. Correct?

But the minimum training for G2SS and a Tour Plan to take Scouts out on a campout & aquatics trips requires; YPT, Weather Hazards, SSD, SA, and aquatics experience. No need for IOLS. Is this correct?

Is IOLS required for campouts anymore? I do not see it in the current versions of G2SS.

As a Scouter and Trainer. I know some Troops will aim high, and obtain all the quality distinctions they may, JTE unit, 100 Day Campers, 50 miler, etc, etc. Other Troops are just happy to be there, and will aim just for the minimum sustaining accomplishments. As a trainer, it will become more increasing difficult to host Outdoor Leadership Skills; if it required for the fully trained title, but not required for recharter or outdoor events/tour plans.

So, did I misread the recent G2SS and Tour Plans. My bottom line question. Is IOLS required to conduct an outdoor event? or is it not required?

Thanks in advanced!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

I'm glad KC9DDI posted. The game of life is in the course for a reason, but I believe there are different ways of delivering the same lesson.

For the weeklong course, it is the end of day three or midweek. For the more common two weekend courses, it should be Friday night, after Scouters return to their course. The two weekend method, the patrols may have bonded during their home time, participated in patrol activities and even built their patrol presentation. Their motivation may be really high and they believe they are high performing teams, and learned all the tools from Wood Badge in just 2.5 days.

Even in the prior WB for Boy Scout Leaders course, this was the artificial stressor after two and a half days of receiving food issue with a specific written recipe on 5x7 cards (and only 30 minutes to cook), patrols were expected to prepare each meal the way it was described on the recipe cards. That night the patrol would return to their campsite with raw food and no 5x7 recipe card. With six or seven members in the patrol there were probably seven different ways to prepare that meal. (Though I don't remember the specifics of teamwork lesson that night in the prior course.)

It is a good lesson to cover. But the game of life, may turn into a horror story far too often. And I think we all know. BSA wants us to learn the lesson of trust, fairness and everyone can win thru participating in Scouting. But it can be discovered via a different game or exercise.

This is my opinion.

I do enjoy the third night course in NYLT. It is more about ethical choices. It will make a person question how the make a split second ethical decision, but shouldn't have long lasting effects causing fights and departure from the course. I think this specific topic from NYLT should be brought over into WB21C. This topic should deliver the same take away lesson, with similar effects.

As for WB Horror stories. Well that is for another post on another day.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Twocubdad,

Greetings!

I agree with a few of our fellow forum members.

For Consequences, a punishment such as fire guard he may just be too stubborn to learn from. But seeing the consequences of an out of control fire, might enlighten him. Taking a tour of a burn victim center, is closer to my thoughts, but still may be too much. But an clear understanding of the dangers, an appreciation of what fire can destroy, homes, property and human skin, may be about right.

During Introductions to Outdoor Leadership Skills for our adults, I give a "Gloom and Doom" topic before the "G2SS"; I remind them of BSA being one of the safest programs out there. But every year, a small amount of Scouts are injured and some die. Quickly before the G2SS we cover some of the worst Scouting headlines in the past decade. Including exhausted Scoutmasters falling asleep at the wheel.

Over a few years, I personally have seen a few Scouts rushed to the emergency room.

Just two summer ago, there were a few staffers playing with lighter fluid, spraying the fluid on the concrete floor of the messhall, near midnight, while most of camp slept. Short version of the story, a few of the boys were doused in lighter fluid, two of them twins. One was in critical condition that morning, the other twin died from his severe burns that next morning. Of course during the training I tell the longer version with a little more detail of quite a few headlines.

Right now, I believe your 15 y/o Star Scout in your troop, thinks he is invincible and that nothing will ever harm him. I expect that your 15y/o Star Scout, may appreciate learning (maybe from graphic stories and possibly a few photos) of how other 16-17 Scouts have become severely injured and/or died, from just "having fun".

Good Luck!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Crossramwedge,

Greetings!

Before I got to the end, I took a look at the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, similar to Eammon and jet526, there is no CC signature for completing the project, but there is a CC signature for the Rank Application.

My own opinion.

I have met a few rough boys, but I only have really met one Scout, that I did not believe deserved Eagle Scout. But I was not in the signature order, nor on his EBOR. Now, in his early 20's, I hope that he is now maturing and appreciates the honor bestowed on him.

That being said. (Still my opinion) There are Eagle Scouts that Soar! Enough Said, their credentials speak for themselves. There are the swarm or nest of Eagle Scouts; like a powerful surge, becoming good to great citizens, doing great things in life.

And then, there are a handful of Eagle Scouts that never really take flight and flop around, more like Turkeys than Eagles. Some of those Eagle Scouts barely perform, barely camp, barely lead, and just marginally follow the Scout Oath and Law. Some of those guys will mature during their lifetime. Their own trail to Eagle may become a little clearer in the adulthood and they will become good model citizens with upstanding character.

In other forum post, I have commented how Scoutreach and other BSA programs are offering Scouting to state run youth disciplinary programs. There are Troops and leaders meeting in these institutions. On the humorous side, I have a Scouting buddy that says of boys in our neighborhood "Every boy needs Scouting! But, Scouting doesn't need every boy", which is more of a They need us more than we need them approach.

This dud of a Scout in Crossramwedge's troop may be a lousy kid today. But maybe in ten years, he may become a great adult, father and citizen. I hope this young man straightens out, realizes his past transgressions, and becomes a model citizen within his local community.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

SR540Beaver,

Highly agree! We hand out the election packages and rules during January Roundtable. Further we send emails with links and explain the process.

Maybe half of the Scoutmasters are prepared and understand the basics.

Not every Scouter will go online and do research. But for those willing to read these Scouter.com forums. They should be willing to go read the OA election rules from the source. And I hope the do, it would be less work and explaining by the Advisor and Chief (minutes prior to an election).

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

fr-john and Fellow Arrowmen,

Greetings!

Sounds like Eagle92 nailed the answer. It is disappointing, when you see good Scouts that could be really good Arrowmen (and serve their troops, camps, and communities), and the just never get elected to become an Arrowman.

There seems to be a difference between how many registered, how many in attendance on troop OA election meeting, and how many ballots total are submitted. Also, there seems to be new Scouts joining that don't really any older Scouts. And finally, sometimes troops have ASM, under 21, which are Arrowmen, of which, their votes can count positively.

My bottom line for this response. All Scoutmasters should personally review the videos and election rules, long before the Chief and Advisor come to visit. All of the rules are posted to the OA website, www.oa-bsa.org. I think if Scoutmasters (and their ASM & Committee) fully understand the OA election process, it may assist with more positive results.

fr-john, Good luck with next years election!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

I can slightly agree with FScouter.

I have had friends and acquaintances frequently tell me (and other Scouters) that BSA has authorized Kilts over the years. As recent as two weeks ago, I had another friend specifically tell me that the Clan MacLaren kilt is an authorized part of the uniform.

Is it worth arguing over? (Whether that BSA has or has not made the kilt an official part of the BSA uniform). Nope, not really that important.

All I can say is. "Yep. Neat. Cool." "Glad you got a kilt to wear with your uniform".

I'm just a little surprised when Scouters tell others it is "official".

As for me, my knees just aren't that good looking, so I'll spend my money on patches.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

Lug Nut and Fellow Arrowmen,

Greetings!

I can only take a guess. But I expect there may have been a clerical error, between the election team and your troop committee. Only one thing caught my eye, when you stated "my name went on the form during the troop (boys) election process...".

Some lodges develop their own Unit Election Report, but there is a standard form available in the OA Guide for Officers and Advisers and the OA Guide to Inductions. These pubs have the Unit Report with the youth candidates form in the publication, but I do not see the adult nomination form in these guides.

Adult nominees do not go on the same page as the youth candidates, but onto a seperate form/page (see link below). Is it possible due to a clerical error within the troop, your name went on the wrong form? Thus your name and nomination was missed during the adult nomination review.

http://www.oa-bsa.org/resources/forms/OA-Election-Forms.pdf

I do not know the dynamics of your troop, council, chapter and lodge; but possibly your committee finds it easier to tell you the nomination is rescinded, rather than attempting to petition to correct their (possible) error and allow you to be reviewed later by the Lodge adult reviewing committee.

I don't know if this defines what has happened with your nomination. But taking a guess, since you stated you were placed on the wrong form.

Good Luck and I hope you serve your Troop well; and hope someday soon you will serve the Chapter, Lodge and Council equally as well!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

charmoc and Fellow Arrowmen,

Greetings!

Here are my opinion and thoughts...

As an adult Arrowmen, I've driven to elections and assisted the various Chiefs with elections.

I've also stood up, after the Scoutmaster endorsement and said something similar to "Remember the guys that taught you, your knots. Remember the guys that taught you how to cook. Remember the guys that help you with your advancement. Those are some really great guys, huh?"

After many of the elections, I walk out amazed. Just from my own experiences. I've seen quiet Scouts be elected, I've seen bullies be elected, I've seen laugh out loud funny and hilarious Scouts be elected, and I've seen the most irritating and obnoxious Scouts be elected. I've seen 1 out of 10 candidates be elected, and we had to run the balloting again since none of the 10 cleared 50 percent of the vote (allowed by the guide/manual). And then I've seen a few troops that would elect 10 for 10.

I was their age once, but I still don't have a clue what goes on in the mind of an 11 y/o.

I do believe, paper ballots with picture faces, and a positive Scoutmasters Minute do help the result become a more positive outcome.

I may wonder why the voting results ended the way they did every so often, but quickly dismiss it. After many confusing results, I've just grown to accept it.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv