Crew21_Adv

jac0033,

Greetings!

I would ask your son. Is he interested in swapping patches. Make sure that is what he wants to do. Some have interest in trading and it is a hobby for many Scouts/Scouters, but trading is not for everyone.

For myself. I'm a patch collector. I have a few boxes of patches, but each patch has been a campout or event or hike, (rain, sleet, storm, and etc), each has a story behind them. Those patches don't have any value to anyone else but myself. Mrs Crew21_Adv has threatened to sell my patches on Ebay, though I would probably be the one to purchase the lot thinking I'm finally getting duplicates.

I attended the Jamboree in 2005 and will be there next year. I really did enjoy looking at all the other patches. It was like walking thru a museum of patches, but did I care to trade. No. They were all colorful, brilliant and artistic, and a trader may have gotten a "nice" or "sweet" out of me, but they didn't have much more value to me. (I even had an adult begging me to slice one of my only three NSJ CSP patches off of a uniform shirt.)

Now that being said. We issued 10 council NSJ CSP patches to every Scout in our Jamboree troop. That wasn't enough. The first five days, no one cared about our council patch. Our NSJ council CSP was worthless, they just were not trading. About day five, after my NSJ troop Scouts finally made some decent trades and were nearly almost all out of patches. Suddenly, Scouts started realizing we were a unique council. On the last five days, it was almost like watching the movies about wall street and the stock market floor. Scouts were desperately searching our troop out, just to get one of our CSPs.

While walking around Jamboree, our troop had certain rules, specifically using the buddy system, and which area of Jamboree they went to. Some of our Scouts would purposely break away from their buddies, because all they wanted to do for 10 days was trade patches. Most of our Scouts would trade a patch and go to an event, trade another patch, and go to another exhibit.

Jac0033 asked, "I know that patch trading should not consume all of the scouts time at Jambo, but what is an average time a scout could expect to spend trading patches?"

So observing Scouts last NSJ, on the average, I would say 5 hours a day. A large population of NSJ did nothing (I mean NOTHING) but traded the entire day. The other half enjoyed what NSJ had to offer.

Then jac0033 asked, Second question, how many patches should a scout take to Jambo to trade? ... So what would be a good number of patches to head to Fort A.P. with?

I joked and commented with my councils 2010 NSJ Scoutmaster, Assistant Scoutmasters, telling them for those desiring to trade I recommend 50 CSPs each, and to save them till day five.

The boys that quickly become traders, will really become disappointed when they run out of CSP/Flaps and have no more to trade.

Good Luck and hopefully your son makes some good trades!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

kahits and Fellow Venturers,

Greetings!

emb021 has probably sent to you, so this is more for reference, for future Venturing Trainers.

Every so often, new training team members get invited onto their respective training team, and there are sometimes limited training syllabus handbooks and roundtable planning guides in the councils or districts.

Fortunately, some councils put training material online.

Chief Seattle Council has a large (online) library of training syllabi, that I've referred a few local fellow Scouters and Trainers to.

http://training.seattlebsa.org/resources/index.php?dir=Venturing/Venturing%20Leader%20Specifics/

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

NE1263Beaver,

Greetings!

You've received excellent advice already.

It sounds like your friends want to start the Crew and has looked to you for help. But in your earlier post you describe yourself as currently an ACM with your pack.

In starting a new crew, I would imagine it needs a few ingredients. Just some of the basics needed. The youth that desire a Venturing program (at least pursuing one of the five bronze awards). Also adults to advise them with similar goals, and finally a similar viewed chartering organization with a meeting location.

A couple of things I would do if I were an ACM with son(s) in the Pack, but helping out a Scouting buddy create a new crew.

First) I would seek out a mentor, Commissioners are good, DEs are good, but I would go looking for another Crew Advisor in the district, neighboring district, or (if needed) in the next council. Someone that has advised a crew and liaison with COR, DEs, Committees, parents and youth. Essentially someone that has been there, done that and can comment on the highlights and pitfalls of starting a crew.

Second) When the Crew begins, I would register as a Crew Committee member. My own Crew21_Adv views, in order to have a successful crew, the majority adult leaders would need a personal vested interest in the Crew. Such as, having their own teenager in the crew; learning, having fun, and working on Bronze, Gold and Silver.

I would expect that any fellow Scouter and ACM would have an interest in seeing other youth learn and succeed, but an ACM would not have much at stake or nothing to lose if a Crew collapses.

So my advice is to register as a committee member, help out somewhat, advise and meet with some teenagers and young adults, but allow other parents of teenagers to launch a crew.

Good Luck!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

SMT224,

Had it happen almost like you explained once about 15 years ago. At a state park, another group which was not a Scout troop, took the only group spot (which we had reserved and paid for). They showed up that day, paid, and took the only group spot on that state camping reservation. The state park ranger refused to move them.

My troop ended up camping in about 15 individual camping spots on the state park, there was room for 2 vehicles, 2 tents with 2 tables and an elevated charcoal grill installed, putting about 40 of us staggered about 1/2 mile down the road. We filed a complaint with the state park board (which probably found its way to the circular file) we never received a positive or negative response.

Now on another occasion. We didn't loose the camping spot on this story, but had an extremely disappointing campout.

The state park that we normally host a district camporee spot is about 30-40 minutes from the closest police station and not on the routine patrol. The few access roads had recently become a popular spot for "drifting". Literally 30-40 feet on the other side of the hedges and treeline from where the entire camporee was trying to sleep. At 1:00 a.m., the drifters (about 30 cars) would skid and slide for about 20 minutes then race to another location, and return each hour. For 20 minutes at a time, loud music, the smell of burning rubber and exhaust smoke, to accompany the even louder sound of squealing tires on asphalt.

The police knew they couldn't catch them, it was in a rural area, and with the vague city and state laws and outside of a residential area the "drifters" were not committing a crime, and drifters (remember about 30 cars) would probably not be caught if one or two patrol cars attempted to come out with sirens blaring.

The location was great, the weather was perfect, the night was starry skied; but the entire camporee did not get any sleep on that campout.

What would (I liked) to have done...

I can't state that on this forum. lol

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Randy,

Greetings!

If I may add my comments.

It feels that way for a few reasons.

The schedule is full, so participants need to be on the course timeline, not their own casual come and go as they please timeline.

Also, the group dynamics try to build a team and camaraderie within and amongst the dens, patrols, and crews; so that after the course you will network with other Scouters working to deliver a program to their youth.

Finally, it is not meant to demean or belittle any participant, or to act infantile. But it does help for a majority of participants to experience the program as though they were a Cub Scout, Boy Scout or Venturer. I have known and met Den Leaders (professional 9-5 business men and ladies) that have attempted to brief their Den with powerpoint lectures. I have met a few Cubmasters that would prefer to run the Pack meeting like an executive board meeting. It may be a good agenda, it may be a good advancement program, their enthusiasm may be overwhelming to help their Cubs, but the delivery is ineffective if they cannot relate to a Cub Scout or conduct leading EDGE with a Den. Also, a Boy Scout leader or Venturing leader, may not understand how it feels to a youth, after being told what to do by an authoritarian Scoutmaster; and then how a youth feels after being coached what to do, how to do, and why to do a project by an empathetic Scoutmaster.

So it is not to degrade an adult; but to ask the parent (or adult) to view the program with the perceptions and emotions of a young Cub Scout, Boy Scout or teenaged Venturer.

Enjoy the rest of the course and create some really good ticket items that will benefit you and you pack, troop or crew!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Scoutnut and Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

I think we somewhat agree. But we are stating the same concept differently. If you could re-read my previous post again.

Scoutnut, you may have meant to type

"As I mentioned, Heather can decide not to accept this girl into the Troop." in your first response, but you typed/mentioned this in your first response. "it is NOT YOUR decision who watches her child and when."

We seem to agree now, but your first response appeared vague and conflicting with HeatherK question.

I fully admitted, I do not know the application process of the GSUSA. But of course, I am familiar with the application process of the BSA. I attempted to state if the GSUSA application process is similar to the BSA process then.

If the application processes are similar, I agreed HeatherK cannot state if the Senior Girl Scout can be a girl Scout.

But, if the processes are similar, HeatherK could accept her application into the troop, or decide not accept her application into the troop.

My comparison, in the Boy Scouts, a Scoutmaster cannot say that a Boy cannot become a Scout. (I know, double negative). But a Scoutmaster does not have to accept a boys application into the troop.

Bringing closer to home. I cannot state that a teenage girl or boy (regardless of any circumstance) will never become a Venturer. I can state, that I will not accept that youth into my Crew.

I admit I do not know the GSUSA process. But as Scoutnut stated, "there are some GSUSA Councils that do not allow Troops to limit their membership, and if Heather is in one of those she may have to fight to ban this girl."

I would be surprised if a GSUSA Council or Neighborhood cluster would force HeatherK to accept any girl (regardless of who they are or any circumstances).

Honestly, I want what is best for the girls Heather's neighborhood troop; and I hope the Senior Girl Scout will find a troop to join, if it is HeatherK's troop or another GSUSA troop.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

hingram,

Beyond searching scouting.org, Most of the OA publicized manuals are available on www.oa-bsa.org. There are OA publications for general viewing, but the purpose is help Arrowman and Advisors to do their job.

I don't see anything about guardians that would currently be a national standard, or OA wide standard. It seems like it would just be policies of the local lodge(s), in keeping with a safe program.

A few forum members mention attending an OA event is usually an individual event. I agree.

Our Chapter Election Teams explain this to parents and leaders each year. That Ordeal Weekend is not a troop event, that the Scouts (OA Candidates) and their parents will have to arrange for transportation. That other leaders in the district may see the Scouts within a district working, and may look for a thumbs up (that they are doing okay), but otherwise the adult Arrowmen attending the weekend are not watching over the chapter candidates or running their program. I agree with our fellow forum members, and scoutldr pretty much summed it up.

Usually Lodge OA Ordeals are done before and after the Summer Camp season. There usually is not a full time medic, there usually is not a camp director. But in attendance is usually a Lodge Key Three, a district executive (staff advisor), the Lodge Advisor (senior volunteer) and the Lodge Chief (youth program director). On an ordeal weekend, those OA Key three job responsibilities will normally end at the parking lot and afterward filing a sick/injury report, if a guardian is at the parking lot to assume custody of the child or adult.

So, for the chances that something unexpected may occur. If an Arrowman candidate becomes sick or injured. If an Arrowman candidate becomes irritable and is ready to quit. And also, if you have an physically exhausted and sleepy 16 y/o candidate with a drivers license. I expect a guardian would be able to obtain safe transportation from the parking lot to their hometown.

Regarding your second questions and comment from the form. Can someone else take that role? Yes. That is fairly much the definition of a guardian, "someone else" that will act on behalf of the parent in the best interest of the Scout.

But it is surprising that the form your lodge uses, states that another Scout can do it (guardian). In your second post, you demonstrated that a Scouter(adult)could be a guardian, but you stated in your first post that another Scout could be the guardian. For some basic common Scouting jargon; a Scout is under 18, and a Scouter is 18 and over. Some camps use the buddy program, from safe swim defense, to be sure that another Scout does not get lost or is not left alone. But I would not expect another 12 y/o Brotherhood Arrowman to be a guardian of a 12 y/o Ordeal candidate.

Finally. Elections are usually done months in advance of Ordeal weekend. Instructions and registration sheets are normally issued during call out ceremonies (routinely during a Spring camporee). The information gets out early, so Scouts and parents can review the application and register their Ordeal Candidate early. (unfortunately, if you are looking at the application two days before an event, someone (Between the Lodge or all the way to you and your son) is not fulfilling their part of the job of communicating)

Unfortunately, As I said before, the Ordeal weekend is an individual event. Normally, the applications will not be filed thru the Scoutmaster or your troop committee, but directly between you(your son) and the OA Lodge. So your Scoutmaster may or may not know who is attending. If I did not know who in the troop was attending, I would contact the OA registrar or the Point of Contact on the registration sheet. Ask whom (adults) are attending from your troop or neighborhood Chapter. If you personally know any of the adults, ask them personally if they would serve as guardian. That is the best you can do, to identify a guardian at 24-48 hours away from an event.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

While I agree with most of the statements.

The Cub Scouters, Boy Scouters and Venturers on this forum know that the BSA scouting program is a program for everyone.

Thru Scoutreach and other OA programs, there are BSA troops in historically trouble neighborhoods and youth detention centers. I would assume GSUSA conducts similar programs to deliver a positive impact on all girls.

While the BSA national guidelines are clear. The BSA leaves it to the discretion of the person accepting the application.

I've learned over and over again in Scoutmaster Specifics and the annual membership Roundups or School Night for Scouting.

When we have an adult that is not the best example for our youth. It is up to the Committee Chair to either accept or not accept the membership application.

Similarly, for a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer, it is up to the Cubmaster, Scoutmaster or Advisor to accept or not accept the membership application. The adult leader should have very good law abiding reasons for declining a membership application.

All youth deserve the opportunity to be in Scouting. But is every pack, troop or crew the right fit for every youth?

So it may not be HeatherK's decision who or when watches the Senior Girl Scout's child. Or if a pregnant teen is still eligible to be a Girl Scout. (I would bet she is still eligible according to National GSUSA).

But if the local GSUSA troop application process is like the BSA youth application process, it is HeatherK decision if any girl will be accepted into her troop. Not yours, not mine, not GSUSA, but HeatherK's decision.

As ScoutNut as stated... Hopefully, in the new Senior Girl Scout is not accepted, HeatherK will assist her to find another Girl Scout Troop that is the right fit. I agree.

So let's not beat up on HeatherK, but give her reasonable answers. Let her know what the factual GSUSA policy is, or let Heather know if it is your opinion.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

ROFL

Oh good grief.

regi never asked if the Scout Order of the Druids was sanctioned by the BSA.

regi has recently been contacted and probably invited to become a member of the Scout Order of the Druids. If you read regi's second and third post.

I answered the question that I have never heard of the Scout Order of the Druids, but stated I would like to comment on their statement, that they are the original Scouting group "originated with Baden Powell". Per regi's second post.

Even in regi's fourth post, regi stated

"The concern is a private club functioning with in scouting that uses membership as a scouting credential."

I think it is obvious that the Scout order of the Druids is not sanctioned by the BSA. I think everyone in this thread has concurred on that point, since regi's first post.

Regi seems to have been invited to a private club, he has met members and received an email from a member of the Scout Order of the Druids. The only thing he has not stated was if they wear the official BSA uniform.

I have attempt to comment to Regi, that there are a few organizations in the US which call themselves scouts. Usually other Scouting organizations in the US do not share the same views religious statement views or lifestyle views as the BSA.

BadenP, please stay on the current topic. A private group, calling themselves the original Scouts, that has recently invited regi to join.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

BadenP,

I'm not sure if what you posted was meant as an insult. But could you stick with the current subject.

Regi seems to currently be concerned with a Scouting group that he has recently met. "I've encountered" certainly does not appear like he met any "Scout order of the Druids" from 1870. It appears to me regi is speaking about a current scouting group.

regi stated:

"I've been told that it originated with Baden Powell.Their stated goals are admirable but I'm concerned about their structure.From what I've gotten from the ones representing themselves as members of this group it has nothing to do with Druidism. They've stated that they are not a secret society but membership is invitation from members.These people are self described elite. I've seen nothing but good from the individuals I've encountered but I'm concerned about the closed nature of organization functioning within Scouts."

Further regi stated

The following is description I received from member.

"If you have a copy of "Baden-Powell" the Two Lives of Hero by William Hillcourt (80th Birthday Edition)On page 28, there is a brief mention of the founding of the Order of Druids.

...

Contrary to the name the Order has no affiliations with early pagans or any religious element.

...

Anyone can be invited to join, but usually the individual must be nominated by a current member.

...we herebye reinitiate the: Scouting Order of Druids

BadenP, from your post, it reads like you are not even answering regi's question regarding a current Scouting group, but just reading about Charterhouse when Baden Powell attended in the 1870s and your post doesn't seem to answer regis current question.

http://www.scouting.milestones.btinternet.co.uk/charterhouse.htm

First of all it was not a scout group but "a group of 12 upper classmen" from BP's school called Charterhouse, "they called it the Druids after the name of the first president WW Drew.", " the club died a lingering death two years later as the interests of the members drifted elsewhere."

If you want to make a personal insult, please try harder, and stick with the current subject.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

Spying?

If I found out a Scout was Spying on my troop.. I would fell honored. My troop must be doing something good, like a model "flagship" troop, for a Scout to want to watch us and take our program back to his original troop.

I would hope that any other Scout leader or SPL would feel the same, ready to show off what their troop can do.

More Scouts should Spy on NYLT and more adult leader should Spy on Roundtable and Wood Badge.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Shilue,

Greetings!

You've received some excellent advice already.

You may visit a troop or pack that is at the top of their game, or you may visit a unit that is going thru a slump. Some people call it "Peaks and Valleys" or "Ebb and Flow".

Look over both the Commissioners worksheet and Unit Self Assessment. You may want to email both of them to the unit leaders that you will be visiting.

I would sum it up to two (maybe three) major categories and branch from there.

Is their unit safe?

Is there a program?

- Are boys advancing?

On arrival, I would bring old generic patches, maybe wooden nickels (with your likeness on them), possibly candy bars for the best patrol or den. Maybe BSA pens for the leaders and possibly a better token for the Cubmaster or Scoutmaster (since they should be signing requirements).

Ask them if they plan to attend training, and bring training registration sheets for your district and the neighboring districts. Ask if they are advancing? Do they have a visual advancement board? Ask if they are participating in all the available programs? Are they registered for Summer Camp/Summer Day Camp or Fall/Spring Camporee? Are they selling popcorn (or other council/unit fundraiser)? Are they participating in 100th year celebrations? Are they filing tour permits? Bring extra flyers, incentives handouts and etc for each program that you mention.

They may be doing it all.. They may be selective and doing their best.. But it doesn't hurt to ask, "Hey, are you going to be out there next weekend?". As a mature adult and experience Scouter, you've been selected to be a Commissioner. You will know when to encourage and when to back off, depending on the strengths and weaknesses of the unit.

Finally. The jobs is not over till the paperwork is done. Learn the myscouting.org Commissioners reporting procedures, and let the DC and DE know about the results of your visits.

Have fun and Congrats!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

silasm,

Greetings!

Is there an alternatve source? Well yes and no. There is a Scoutstuff M2M order form which you probably haven't seen. Has anyone dealt with this before? No. I haven't.

As Alfansome stated, possibly the CS youth XXL will be appropriate size.

Scouts and Adults come in all shapes and sizes, also the BSA has membership with physical limitations or physical disAbilities. (No disrespect intended). Because of all these reasons Scoutstuff/National Supply Center have tailor made uniforms.

http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/70-053_M2MOrderForm.pdf

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

regi,

Greetings!

Just to comment.

I've never heard of a specific Scout Order of Druids, but I would like to comment on their statement that it originated with Baden Powell.

In example, In eastern Europe there has been a small revival of the League of Woodcraft Indians, originally created by Ernest Thomas Setton. After the end of the cold war and opening of eastern Europe, emerging countries looked at Scouts and other organizations to learn outdoor and community service skills. Some adopted Scouting, other neighborhoods sought similar but elitist, closed nature, and separatist groups.

I believe the word Scout(s) is an international generic term with multiple definitions, which has not been trademarked. Boy Scouts of America, Girl Scouts of the United States of America, Boys and Girls Club of America, 4H, and etc; I'm pretty sure have been trademarked. The word "Scouts" has not been trademarked.

There are few more Scout organizations in the US (beyond BSA and GSUSA), but their membership is probably fewer than 1000 per these other Scouting organizations. Some of these other Scouting organizations within the US have been mentioned on this forum before; as well as other Scouting blogs and personal webpages. I even think there is a Baden Powell Scouts group in the US, although I can't view their webpage right now. Plus other groups in the US, which have Scouts in their name.

Since other Scouting organizations share some similar ideals as we do, but also have some separate ideals. It is easy to say that any scout organization has some ties with Baden Powell. But Baden Powell only originated one scouting organizations, "The Boy Scout Association" currently known as "The Scout Association" of the United Kingdom. All other scouting organizations can probably say they have used this as their model.

In my opinion...

When someone tells you the "Scout order of the Druids" was originated by Baden Powell himself. They are taking generous liberties and elaborating on the truth (to put it mildly). Anyone who elaborates on the truth, I too would be concerned and cautious about.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

FoukeCM,

Greetings again!

I have met just a few Cubmasters that have had to "do it all". To revive a unit and to begin a new unit.

The advice was always, don't "do it all" for too long.

It happens. But any Cubmaster caught in that situation should recruit a committee (albiet the opposite way of doing things) or think of merging with another Pack.

Hopefully your previous Cubmaster did not have that mindset, but was unfortunately caught in a temporary situation were assistance was becoming scarce.

Good Luck!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

SctDad,

Greetings!

You have a difficult situation, that only you can decide.

The forum members can advise and comment all day(all week) long, but we cannot help you decide.

The leader had a legal pending matter in a domestic case, outside of Scouting, and it did not involve a minor child.

Could this leader eventually be forgiven? Could he pay his moral debt and be dismissed? Who knows?

Me personally. I would be honest if asked. (One of the points of the Scout Law) No more, no less. With a situation like you described, I wouldn't volunteer any unsolicited comments towards any other pack or troop.

At work, with completely different circumstances, I have told subordinates; You don't have to be friendly, you don't have to be hostile, but you do have to be professional.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

FoukeCM,

Greetings!

You've gotten excellent advice. Specifically about money. Find Committee Chair to organize the rest of a committee.

As the Cubmaster, you will probably have alot of say an influence in how the budget is being spent. Ranks, recognitions and Webelos activity pins are the bulk of the budget. But Blue and Gold, special pack events, den meetings in a box, etc. You will have many recommendations on where to spend money at, but get a treasurer on the committee to handle the funds.

Also, along with the money earning project worksheet and approval from the DE/DD. Inquire with other Cubmasters at your local Roundtable how they have held successful fundraisers.

Good Luck, get a committee and have fun!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

oldisnewagain1,

Greetings!

Here are my comments.

SM entering and departing the PLC is okay and acceptable. Every troop will have to find a balance.

Strong personalities are good.

Arguing is not good. Brainstorming, debating, persuasion, discussing, and identifying the best avenue and program is what is desired. As long as strong personalities do not create a hostile environment in the PLC.

The PLC is not the time for creating an annual plan, the PLC meeting is usually to plan the next month meetings and events (possibly two months). "The Plan" is usually one time in the year and called an Annual Plan Conference.

The best time may be immediately after the school year begins, bringing the district and council calendar, the city and state calendars, the school calendar, the community sports calendar (Little League, Soccer, Football, etc). To write a basic plan (not meeting plans) of the year.

To let you know more about my troop and PLC.

I still serve as an ASM with the troop and an Advisor with the Crew. As for our PLC which is a little younger than the Crew Officers meeting. They need the adult leaders as buffers, to keep their planning in a channel or canal, and keep them focused on a program that is fun, educational, and will assist them in advancement.

If the adults only met at the PLC we'd have a plan in 30 minutes. With the SPL, PLs and adult leaders we run about an hour maybe an hour and fifteen minutes. I think if it were just our SPL and PLs without any adults, they would exhaust the SPL (whomever it may be), their meeting would probably last a couple of hours till cell phones start ringing telling the Scouts to get out to the parking lot now or walk home, and only half the month would get planned. Events may be planned, they may be educational, but we would have a difficult time tying them in with any merit badge, camping experience or rank advancement.

The PLC still needs some adult association. They should have fun and discuss the events and plan. But they will need some help to state, an event may be unsafe or may be financially out of reach of the troop at this time. Most of our comments consist of;

Great Idea!

Not so great idea, but can we make it satisfy a requirement?

That's a little too dangerous guys.

What do you think about this... (followed by) you discuss it.

I think our PLC formula works well. The SPL, PLs, SM and ASM come out feeling that they contributed, while the SPL maintained the agenda.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Knot Head and Fellow Scouters,

Regarding my troop and my crew. (Which are two seperate units, the crew has a few Scouts from a few neighboring troops and a few girls.)

Our local camps spread from 15 minutes away to 10 hours away.

We usually rally in the parking lot in complete uniform (which allows for a parking lot inspection). If they are wearing their uniform, you know they have their uniform shirt with them. Next question is, did they pack everything else on the packing list?

After the parking lot inspection. For longer trips to camp, my Scouts (as well as my Venturers) are allowed to take off their uniform shirts and pack them away.

Also Knot Head asked is there a BSA rule that requires the class A uniform on the route to and from a campout?

Is this just a suggestion or tradition or a rule?

I could only see that Gunny and more recently Beavah responded to that question. I agree, there is no rule. It is a common Urban Scouting Legend that BSA states you must were your uniform while traveling, otherwise the BSA supplimental insurance will not insure the troop in case of an accident. (just google Scouting Urban Legend, and you should find it in a few postings)

I think the "Must wear uniform during travel" legend was started to get Scouts to bring/wear their uniforms. It just snowballed BSA-wide to the point new Scouters accept it as fact. I still hear it mentioned every few months at my local roundtable.

It may be a good legend to get your Scouts and Scouting parents to make sure the uniform makes it to camp, event, or ceremony with the Scout. But if taken too seriously, it scares some leaders into believing they are not insured or violating a BSA safety policy.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Exibar,

Greetings again.

I'd like to present a few additional comments.

My own troop has what we call organized chaos, but that is vastly different from total chaos. I guess it depends on perception and how a troop is viewed.

At a one second snapshot, our troop may not look like a meeting; but over an hour and a half you will see opening, some skill development (around the monthly theme), patrol corners, a game (that usually reinforces the skill), then closing and Scoutmasters minute.

A year ago, we had an 11 y/o boy and his mother visit; they spent about 1 minute at one of our meetings, and she ran for the door. I think she burnt rubber getting out of the parking lot. Regardless if the young boy had friends in our troop, with one minute of viewing, the mother was definitely not happy. Other families that visit for the entire meeting see that we have a program. Not a perfect program, and most of the Scouts are learning and advancing, but it is still a program.

When my family came to my current troop, we visited about four neighborhood troops and we were promised the world. We selected the best troop out of four. After about two months, I noticed that the PLC really wanted a five minute opening and an hour and twenty-five minute dodge ball game. Every week. Some parents were happy that their sons came home, took a shower and went to bed early. Other parents were disappointed that there was no advancement and no program.

The new Scoutmaster (still our current SM) and Assistant Scoutmasters were a little too relaxed and let the boys have a boy run dodge ball tourney each week. While 2 or 3 boys out of 35 worked on a merit badge. The Scoutmaster knew what to do, and where he wanted to guide the troop and PLC but he needed assistance from the ASMs and Troop Committee.

It took about six months, and some disagreements on the Committee and some disagreements on the PLC. But we moved to 45 minutes of skills and academics, and 45 minutes of recreation games. Then over the next six months, we moved to 60 minutes of skills and academics and 30 minutes of game.

For the past few years, we have about an hour and 15 minutes of skill development, and now we have a game that reinforces the skill at the last 15 minutes of the meeting. My troop is not perfect. But we are pretty darn good. We have a high advancement results throughout the year, a low drop rate, and a few Eagle Scouts each year. This Summer we even attended two different summer camps.

Over the years, when the visiting Webelos saw this transition (a combination of education and recreation in our meetings) they starting transferring into our troop very frequently.

Exibar stated "I'm currently hearing more and more from parents. I don't know all the answers but some things just seem not right to me."

Probably the current Scoutmaster of your troop has a different leadership style. I would say there is nothing bad about it, but it could improve. The current Scoutmaster may have been the right man(woman) for the job, at the right time. But now (or in March), it may be time for a change. Not only a role model or someone with personality, but a person that will coach and advise (like has been commented about in this forum).

Probably the best measuring stick of a troop, which is in actual writing is the Unit Commissioners Worksheet, and the Troop/Team Self Assessment form. If you can grade them in about the 75 percent positive range, I would personally say they are a good troop.

As you set your vision and goals, and you communicate you vision and goals to the PLC and Committee, and also measure your SMART goals, maybe the some things just seem not right to me will turn around and appear successful.

As the new Scoutmaster you will probably hear even more and more from parents (both positive and negative). Parents will be the first one to tell you they dropped their son off at the wrong place, 30 minutes before a program was due to start on the other side of town (because they didnt receive an email from the Patrol Leader), but theyll be the last to apologize after you waited three hours in a hot parking lot with your son and their son. But the pros should outweigh the cons.

Take a report card (Unit Commissioners Worksheet and Troop/Team Self Assessment) with you to a few troop meetings, and see if you can develop a plan for next year.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Exibar,

Greetings!

It sounds like you've identified some traits. Youth Leadership, but no Adult Association.

Fellow forum members have stated it. Scouts may learn from some of their mistakes, but they will not learn from constant mistakes or chaos. Having no program at all, will drive them away from Scouting.

You've seemed to just ask for help with the transition. And also how to revive an active program in the troop.

In no particular order, here are a few of my recommendations.

I would start now, long before March. Begin with their Annual Planning Seminar. Find out what they want to do throughout the year, where they want to camp, what merit badges to introduce. nolesrule has recommended you to attending Scoutmaster Specifics, also you should attend the district Boy Scout Roundtable and their troop's PLC meetings.

Others have endorsed training, I would encourage attending Wood Badge and send your SPL and PLs to NYLT.

Our PLCs have the boys lead and discussing monthly themes, with the adult SM/ASM asking permission to comment maybe a 1/4 up to 1/3 of the time. The Scouts in my troop have some good ideas, but they need to be prompted on steps to reach their monthly goals. If they just can't figure out what needs to be done, then the SM/ASM will offer recommendations.

Also, getting buy in from the ASMs and Troop Committee, on planning and communications.

Another issue to develop early, would be how your troop's communications should flow. Parents will not go to their Scout to ask them what needs to be done for the campout. They will go direct line of sight to the Scoutmaster.

Although, the Scoutmaster should know the entire calendar down to the minute, the Scouts should be communicating with the Patrol Leader and Senior Patrol Leader. You may want to tell the parents to ask their Scout first, then to contact you.

Finally, Scout thru First Class is outdoor intensive. If they are not camping in the first few months, they will not advance and they will lose interest in the program. (I call the social Scouts. They are there for the friendship of their classmates, but nothing more.) I would prepare your Webelos parents for all the new Scouts to attend Summer Camp next summer. I would encourage them to purchase camping gear for Christmas and Birthdays. If only one out of eight new Scouts attends Summer camp, then you may have lost an entire patrol by the next year. Attempt a ratio of seven out of eight new Scouts to attend camp.

Good Luck in the transition.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings again!

ntrog8r and I share some similar thoughts. Learning advanced outdoor skills is great. It may be fun to have a personal accomplishment, and a wallet card certifying an adult as an expert in the outdoors.

But are they needed? In order to take a troop of Tenderfoot Scouts out, do we really need all those extensive skills? Or do we just need to keep them safe and have an outdoor program, as prescribed in the current handbooks?

Another thing to ponder, How many troops backpack camp every month and how many troops tailgate camp?

resqman commented on his council's LAST training. Although great ancillary training, I would not have considered GPS and nighttime GPS as an advanced outdoor skills. Maybe it's just me, but yet, maybe there would be a wide gap in the definition of advanced outdoor skills across the BSA leadership.

If anyone can comment about Philmont treks, I've only heard second hand descriptions about them. But you can attend a Philmont back country trek with the correct recommended equipment, physically prepared, and First Class Scout skills. The Philmont trek provides you with a guide/ranger, that will hike with the trek and providing training along the way.

Why would a leader seek earlier training ahead of time, when they are going to experience a training environment during the trek?

As ntrog8r, Eamonn and a few others have eluded to, maybe BSA should enhance the current Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills. I just don't see a requirement or mandatory reason for a course such as Advance Outdoor Leader Training.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Reminds me of the forum member that asked a question, and said "just give me one reason". This specific forum member received a few hundred answers and responses, but after every reason (a few hundred reasons) the forum member would reply "I don't believe it" or "I don't buy into that".

Edge of Thorns,

There is no advice for you. You have already made up your mind. You can find plenty of statements on Scouting.org that will confirm the BSA statement. Like scoutldr said, and I agree. Nice try.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Eagle92 and Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

If I can comment on a few things. Like emb021 and Buffalo Skipper said, Powderhorn is a great course, but it is a resource course. No two courses are alike. There is not a curriculum like NYLT or Wood Badge.

Many Scouters come from different experiences. Over the years, I have had some advanced first aid training and I have held a sucking chest wound together at least once. But I am obviously no doctor or first responder/EMS.

I've always known that Scouters (aka any regular adult) come from different backgrounds and different trainings across the USA. My biggest disappointment was during our realistic first aid challenge at Powderhorn.

During the exercise, three of us (out of our 10 member crew) went into action. The exercise victim had fallen off a mountain bike after seeing a snake in the path. I did what I have learned to do before, as one of our Crew members held and stabilized the neck and shoulders from turning, I began to loosing the shoulder straps (which was pulling her shoulders back and restricting her breathing as she was laying on her backpack) and I began to run my index finger down her spine to check for alignment/misalignment.

Both times I was quickly met with "Don't touch her!", by peers that considered themselves more experienced.

Frustrated at the exercise and the expertise of my peers, I walked away. At the 10 minute mark, one of the rescuers yelled, "Did anyone check her spine?!", followed by "Why didn't anyone loosen her backpack straps, she can't breath!"

The realistic first aid exercise wrapped up shortly after that, with a critique and lesson afterwards. But I was short tempered and nearly let a few profanities fly, after being asked why I didn't do something 10 minutes earlier, when the self proclaimed expert yelled not to do it.

All this to say.

My fellow Scouters in Powderhorn and I had been taught different first aid techniques. My techniques obviously did not support their first aid techniques. So I quit the exercise.

We all have learned different techniques. Between Wilderness First Aid, to Fire Laying, to Orienteering, to LNT, to backpacking/hiking. What is taught as gospel in the dry California and Arizona climate, may have a different definition in the Virginia Appalachian mountains, and may be different from the Louisiana swamps to the Maine snow drifts.

When I conduct training in my district and council. I tell my friends that I am not teaching them how to go camping. But I am teaching them how to safely take up to a hundred, 11 year old boys outside in the woods to go camping. You can always bring back an extra boy, but you cannot bring back any less.

What some may consider to be necessary skills, should be taught in Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills.

Like my one disappointment at Powderhorn. We had different interpretations of Advanced First Aid Skills, Advanced Outdoor Skills may have widely different definitions across the BSA.

And, unfortunately beyond that. How many troops will realistically take a hundred, 11 year olds on a 50 Miler without ever seeing civilization for a few days. Not many. I dont think many Scouters really need advanced outdoor skills. If they do learn them, will they use them? Or will the use EDGE and pass these skills onto 11 y/o Scouts?

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv