Crew21_Adv

SMT224,

Regarding the difference of your Scouts between 2001-2005 and then 2008 till present.

JLTC was the previous course, till 2005. It was same curriculum for Wood Badge For Boy Scout Leaders, which changed in 2000. The goal is the same, but the skills and practices may be somewhat different from a NYLT participant.

Now my troop has regularly sent Scouts to JLTC and NYLT. The results are routinely good, nothing dramatically exciting. THe graduates come back and do apply some leadership and PL and SPL.

Then a few years back, we had an newly elected SPL, for the first month and half of his SPL tenure, he thought he was gonna sit back and say "Start a Fire, Do KP, go do your patrol corners". This 15 y/o Scout thought he was going to be a laid-back manager. Then he attended NYLT. He had four months left on his SPL term, but my goodness. He led his PLCs, he led the troop meetings by communicating with the PLs, he worked with the SM/ASM to carry out a program with advancement. NYLT gave this young man a drive and initiative. He really got excited about Scouting, and served the troop as one of our best SPLs.

My troop has always had good support from NYLT graduates. We've always benefited from the course. Once, the troop really benefited from an NYLT graduate. NYLT has my endorsement.

At Roundtable I say, if you want a great pack, troop or crew, send an adult leader to Wood Badge. If you want a really great troop (and now crew) send your Scout to NYLT.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

Fellow Scouters and Fellow Ebayers,

Greetings!

My personal thoughts....

I don't care if someone purchases an item over Ebay. I am only concern if they wear it or demonstrate it falsely.

I personally have purchased a few duplicates, or patches of events that I've attended but never "got the patch".

I know a few members of my council committee, that purchased a high-priced limited-issue item, just to take it off of the Ebay (and also to keep the distribution limited).

What I feel is only slightly disappointing is the diluting of limited issue items, a fund raiser patch that a Scouting adult may have paid 100-500 dollars to send a Scout to camp. Being sold on Ebay for 10-50 dollars.

I expect the Ebay sellers which have the 10,000 plus feedbacks, are employees of the main patch manufacturers. They run 100 patches off the loom, and another 100 patches accidentally fall into a cardboard box. The cardboard box of limited issue patches, probably go into a garage for a year or two. Then get broken out and advertised on Ebay.

Even BSA uniform manufacturers, miss a seem, misalign a button hole, cut a sleeve too short; and oh well, that shirt gets thrown in the "Imperfect" of "defect" bin. In theory, the slight imperfections are suppose to be shredded. In theory though.

Heck, if I worked the loom and was an Ebay seller, my (so-called) work at a patch manufacturer factory would be a side job, just for a little extra spending cash. Cause these 10,000 plus sellers on Ebay gotta be making a good income and living.

So, it is an opinion. But my only disappointment are the high number sellers on Ebay, that sale "black marketed" Scouting items. Some of these guys are making some really good money, and severely diluting limited serious patches. I look at the amount of feedbacks, then the other items for sale, and then make up my own mind; if it is an "Ebay aggravation" or just a fellow Scouter selling of their personal collection.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

WestCoastScouter and Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

Like many, I don't have a concrete answer from the book, but I do have an opinion on the topic that I would like to share.

ScoutParent is a position on the charter. It is not a paid membership position though. BSA nor the troops can enforce membership to complete any training. However BSA (and Chartering Organizations) can refuse membership applications if they do not complete training; furthermore BSA can not endorse tour permits, if all the requirements are not met by the unit.

Under the ScoutParents literature found at (www.scoutparents.org) http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/511-001.pdf BSA recognizes that not all parents will join. But parents will drive, carry, sell, purchase, move equipment, and conduct some of the background work, in support of their son, the Scoutmaster and the Unit Committee. Some may be older siblings, relatives, guardians, and etc.

BSA covers some of their legal issues with ScoutParents, by the YP Pamphlet in the Tiger, Wolf, Bear, Webelos and Boy Scout Handbooks. In order to achieve Bobcat and Scout Ranks, a Scout must review the YP Pamphlet with the parent or guardian. If I recall it is endorsed by the parent or guardian. Read it or not, the parent or guardian assumes responsibility for YP.

So, as an opinion. I don't expect ScoutParents to complete any training or be required to complete that training, by their choice not to complete an adult volunteer application.

By their choice, the ScoutParents may (or may not) drive, carry, move equipment or etc. But their son(or daughter) will still be invited to participate in Scouting.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

I concur with Eagle92 statement. That the adult leadership and PLC is there to deliver a program, advancement will follow. And Sorry bacchus, this is not to answer your questions, but just for me to rant on boy led vs adult led.

I have heard and repeated, that Chartering Organizations utilize Scouting within their outreach and youth development programs. Most of all of the time, it identically parallels Scouting methods and ideals. But I've been told by a few DE's, that for Chartering Organzations, Scouting is like a shopping store. Of course they cannot violate rules, but they can be selective and take the parts of the program that they like. A CO and Committee may pick and choose.

For example, on rare ocassion. Similar to the learning for life program, a CO can have a Troop, just for high adventure, more resource, and program insurance. They can utilize COPES course, and camp on BSA property; but never advance a single Scout in a single rank.

On the other hand. A CO and unit Committee, may decide that their troop is an Eagle Mill. Their primary focus is advancement. Finishing intensive 6 month, 500 word essay merit badges during a one hour meeting. Earning most all 125 merit badges each year.

Butting heads reading boy led vs adult led...

I had one protege in a nearby neighborhood, he assumed Scoutmaster after the previous Scoutmaster retired from the position with his 18 y/o son. He explained his goals were to provide a program that allows for advancement. That he desires to utilize the PLC to lead the troop. It didn't take a month. The Troop Committee held a meeting, pulled the new Scoutmaster aside, and said that his radical ideas of boy leadership and outdoor program were not what they wanted. He was asked to step down by the committee. It didn't take but about three months for him and his son, to look for another troop that they could join as a Committee Member and Tenderfoot.

All this to say. Some Scouters will desire to provide a program, and assist the boys in achieve their goals. Meanwhile, Some Scouters and the whole unit will throw out the boy led program, and have adults lead the troop.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Venturers,

I'm not a big fan of this new Venturing shirt.

Just to chime in and add my 2 cents. I've made a few phone calls to NSC, and got just a few hints. Nothing absolute though.

I called the NSC toll free number a few weeks ago, as the regular sizes Venturing Uniform shirts started to disappear from the Scoutstuff.org. My Crew very recently has had a few more youth joining our Crew, and attempting to complete their uniform.

Of course, they are BSA NSC employees. Sometimes they do not know about the program, they are just reading from a webpage and can sometimes see just a little bit more than the average online customer can see. Every so often, you do get a NSC 1800 operator that is also a Scouter, that can appreciate what they sale.

The NSC sales clerk I spoke to a few weeks ago said a new Venturing uniform shirts are due out in August 2010. She read it off of a BSA NSC office memo circular.

Now I make another couple of phone calls this week.

So, after reading our forum and a few other Scouting/Venturing blogs last night. I tried the BSA NSC telephone once again. The sales clerk was sympathetic to my questions, but was not experienced with the BSA programs. Although, the clerk did have a supervisor that is a tenured NSC sales clerk and a Scouter.

Last night (Thursday), It was still the first time for the sales clerk and his supervisor to view this New Venturing Shirt online image and online description.

The NSC telephone sales supervisor, also speculates (caveated) that this is probably a Venturing Activity shirt (similar to the beige activity shirt with ghost fdl and BSA logo). He could not qualify his speculation, but thought it may be an activity shirt and not a uniform shirt. And also, the NSC telephone sales supervisor suspects that the wrong description was tagged to the wrong sales item.

Anyways... It's not much.. but that is my 2 cents and a few phone calls.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

CNYScouter and Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

I have not attended this training "High Adventure Skills Training for Venturers". Sorry I do not know what it consist of. But it is a valid course and title.

I have found it in an Excel file of national training codes which have been shared with database developers. It is titled the same as your post, High Adventure Skills Training for Venturers, code H42, established 1 August 1998.

It is also listed under training codes on the Scouting.org website, however the title is abbreviated, so an internet search of the full title may not have found it.

http://scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/trainingcoursesreport2010.pdf

Good Luck in finding out what the course consist of, and when you do, please share with us.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

BulldogBlitz and Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

You've already received some excellent comments. I like SMT224 comment, something like allowing them to attend, and if they drop the MB that is on them.

Regarding emails. I know many parents that don't allow their 11 y/o son to have an email address. It makes it difficult communicating between a Scout and a MB counselor, SM or ASM.

For a brief sidebar note. It is really difficult with the OA Chapter, when there are 1-2 youth email address on the Chapter roster; and you see many father's professional work email addresses for the youth Ordeal candidates. Knowing that after Ordeal weekend is done, most fathers are going to auto delete any OA related emails w/o telling their son.

Now back to Docile Scouts. My thoughts about "How do you break a parent of cub mode?"

From my experience; there is a slight difference between docile Scouts that are not interested, and Scouts that have short term memory. Heck, I have the attention (Squirrel!) span of a Tiger Cub.

I would expect you have a combination of both short attention span Scouts(whom may be interested) and helicopter parents.

A MB counseling session should not begin until a Scout has applied for a blue card MB Application/Record from the Scoutmaster. The Scout should carry the MB Application/Record to the MB counselor. This should suffice as a Scout being interested.

I would either email the troop or announce during a troop meeting, something like this. "I have not had any Scouts approach me or email me about this Merit Badge. I have had three parents contact me, but still I have no Scouts. I will not counseling any Scouts until the Scout has contacted me or the Scout has given me a blue card MB Application."

Good Luck!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

NickP412,

Greetings!

I personally like the OA Legend patch. I see few Arrowmen wearing them, and I see many Arrowmen that never wear them.

In keeping with the uniform guidelines, I do not wear the patch on the outside of my sash. But (jokingly) in silent protest of the Uniform Police, my family and I wear our OA Legend patches on the inside of the sash. On the front half and facing towards the shirt and chest.

If a fellow Scout actually came up an inspected our sashes, the patch can clearly be seen (facing towards the inside though). I can use it to help refresh new Ordeal members the story of the Legend. But because it is facing towards me, it doesn't distract from the sash and arrow itself.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

mom2specialboyz,

Greetings!

I've heard and read this in a few similar literature and webpages. Although I cannot quickly find any "concrete evidence" BSA published literature that states the meaning of the BSA emblem. Below is a good description.

Here is is cut and pasted below

(Quote)

The shape of the complete Scout badge, which is also on the First Class badge of rank, was adapted from the north point of an old maritime compass. The design is often called a trefoil - a flower with three leaves. It is also known by its French name, fleur-de-lis - lily or iris flower. The shape resembles an arrowhead.

With slight changes, the trefoil badge is used by Scouts around the world. The trefoil means that a Scout can point the right way in life as truly as a compass can in the field. The three points, like the fingers of the Scout sign, stand for the three parts of the Scout Oath: duty to God and country, duty to others, and duty to self.

(UnQuote)

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Venturers,

Greetings!

I don't know if Venturing Uniforms has been discussed most recently. (May 2010)

As my Crew was purchasing additional spruce green shirts from the scoutstuff.org National Supply Center. They no longer carry the average sizes. So, I called the 1800 customer service line.

What did NSC say about the Venturing shirts?

The customer order line from National Supply Center stated that the current Venturing Crew shirts are either out of stock or being liquidated. And that NSC is expecting a shipment of the new style Venturing shirts in August.

I do not know how reliable this is. Maybe during the BSA National Conference the Venturing program may debut a new shirt. Or maybe the customer service agent was feeding me a line, to stop me from asking why the Venturing shirts/blouses are serverly back ordered.

Any recent comments?

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

CubPackComChr,

Greetings!

Without reading thru the entire post, if the father wants to recognize accomplishments of his cub scout son, without this younger son attending a den meeting.

If the decision of the committee is not in favor for this younger cub. Possibly the younger brother could be enrolled as a Lone Scout with the district/council, and dis-enrolled from the Pack.

Here are couple of disappointments I've witnessed over the years. One of the two did have an acceptable outcome.

Years ago, I have seen a Pack take a liking to one Cub Scout. He was a good kid, though the family was lower income. I did not have anything against him, I just didn't understand the rational and charity that was poured out for this boy.

The 10 y/o Webelos age child was enrolled into the pack, issued a full blue uniform, Webelos Handbook, and earned Bobcat, every Webelos Activity Pin (some items I believe take 2 months), earned Webelos rank, the Arrow of Light, issued a Boy Scout uniform, handbook, and bridged over into the Troop. All within a month and one week (five weeks total). And the boy was never seen again at another Scout meeting. My Cub Scout Pack poured out approximately 500 dollars in 5 weeks for this young man, for him to quit on week 6. Good young man, but he did not contribute at all to the Pack; and was actually a financial burden on all the other Cubs and families that did pay dues and paid for his membership and recognitions.

On another occasion, I have seen a family that unfortunately had differences with two Cubmasters (and Pack Committees) in their neighborhood. This family was also very active in the district and council, however all parties could not get over their disagreements. (It should have been a relatively minor trivial issue, but all parties held grudges against the other). To resolve the issue, the district and council recommended the Lone Scout program to the family. This family was allowed to register their Cub Scout youth as a Lone Scout, with the parents acting as the sole Den Leader, and reporting to the DE. All the cost of the program was bore by that family. It actually worked out successfully, and the Cub Scout was able to bridge into a troop years later.

Although the family lived a mile away from two Packs, and frequently saw other Scouters in the neighborhood. They were able to remain active, keep an amiable relationship with the neighborhood packs, participate in district events, and accomplish Cub Scout program advancements on their own time.

Hopefully, your committee will make the best choice it can. If your committee decides not to accept the Scouts accomplishment without attending or going thru the proper advancement cycle, at least all is not lost and the family may seek another course of action to pursue the Cub Scout advancement program on their own time.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

jhankins,

Iv'e seen a few. Some are emotional and may get a little dust in your eye. But, the best Scouting slide show I've ever seen; it was about 20 years ago, with about 300 Scouters at a Scouting dinner celebration.

It was a 35mm slide show (before powerpoint), on three screens. Each screen had different pictures. Most of the pictures last half a second (if that long). And it was set to the theme music of the television show Hawaii 5-0.

You could barely hear incomplete sentences across the tables, the action pictures flashed so fast. "Did you", "Hey that wa", "I rememb", "Did he"

All you had time to say was "WOW!"

I think that the front row got a neckache or whiplash as though they were watching a super fast tennis match. Meanwhile, everyone in the audience had their heart pumping by the end of the show.

It was energetic and everyone was on fire about Scouting that night. Good thing we didn't have expresso coffee.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

A few of my comments...

The TC face is so cute, I barely noticed his shirt.

Or maybe they are just going for the realistic look.

At least all of the TC patches were sewn on, and not stapled to the shirt.

lol

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/02-209.pdf

Fellow Scouters,

Scouting has had a continious partership with Buddhist Temples for nearly 80 years. This is even posted on the Scouting website.

From my memory, in Aloha Council and Maui County Council there are plently of Buddhist Temples that are Chartering Organizations with sizable troops.

Thoughts? To respond to your Scout. The issue is their choice, the Scout & family have not been excluded. Either the family will join the troop or they will not.

To respond to the boy and his family, I would recommend the family talk to the Buddhist leaders about Scouting.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

If I may comment on Eagle92 and Gary_Miller's, dialogue.

From my own experience as a trainer and commissioner. Ive had many friends that are of the LDS faith, as well as friends of many other denominations.

I have never seen a perfect unit . I've visited Catholic, Methodist, and community-based troops that were top notch and others that were doing just half the job and barely advancing.

While visited LDS sponsored troops; Ive witnessed nearly perfect, uniformed, 7 parts of a meeting, patrol meetings, skills development, advancement and learning actually in progress. I have also witnessed troop meetings where no youth showed up. Only adults. And these werent committee meetings, they were weekly troop meetings.

Ive had LDS friends, whom it seemed never came in from the woods. The next edition of the BSA Fieldbook should have their picture on it. Ive praised their work, and commented how their troops are performing with quality programs and advancements. And Ive met LDS acquaintances during their troop meetings that you would never guess that they were the Scoutmaster.

Some LDS friends tell me its the calling that they are concerned with. Ive been told by a few LDS friends, that they jockey for position, hoping to be called into Scouting. They are excited about Scouting, and just hoping their Bishop calls them to serve the LDS as a Scoutmaster /Assistant Scoutmaster. In those troops that Ive visited, they have a program, they camp, the attend events, their participation is just tremendous. These friends are the right person at the right time; for their church and their troop.

My LDS Scouting friends have also stated, that the Bishop(s) sometimes are not concerned with skills, and some apathetic adults will be called into Scouting, while parents with boys will be called into other service. Meanwhile, Ive wondered how a pickup game basketball player can earn Eagle (and earn the Camping Merit Badge) if he has never camped for even one night.

From my personal visits. There are some high performing LDS sponsored troops out there, I highly admire their work and their enthusiasm towards the program. And also from my visits, there seem to be an equal amount of LDS sponsored troops that are in name only.

My gut feeling, it is the way the LDS Scout leaders are selected. Some LDS Scout leaders are born Scouters and bleed green and khaki, they are awesome Scout leaders period (enough said about those guys). And then, some truly talented and caring adults (whom potentially would be great Scout leaders) may be serving in some other capacity; while an apathetic adult (Scoutmaster) is watching a basketball game week after week. No opening, no closing, nothing else. Just walk in and play basketball.

I do think the LDS should (of course) continue their relationship with the BSA. That is without question. I do however sincerely ask, that the Bishops or COR select quality leaders every time and not just half the time, to fill their leadership roles.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Twocubdad,

http://www.oa-bsa.org/resources/pubs/GOA-2008.pdf

Greetings!

This particular obtacle is a challenge each election period for my local chapter and local troops.

John-in-KC is correct, and I'm sure a few others just getting to this post will see it also. Without the entire quote, its on the bottom right of page 22, in the Guide.

There is also a national OA DVD, created by Unami Lodge and Cradle of Liberty Council at Treasure Island Scout Reservation. The most recent election video describes the election procedures very well. It can also be found on Youtube, if you search OA election video.

Normally, A withheld ballot (abstain) sheet does not count. A blank ballot counts as a negative, submitted ballot but no confidence vote for any candidate.

But it is usually difficult for a 10.5 y/o new Scout to understand the election procedures. You may need to state what the definition of abstain means.

So yes, I would advise, I would have the Troop Guides advise. Something to the effect "If you don't know any of these older guys yet. Hold on to your sheet. Do not hand over a ballot." Then repeat, repeat, repeat.

Good Luck and hopefully the OA election outcome is good report!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

BDPT00 and Fellow Wood Badgers,

Greetings!

Agree.. After re-reading my post, I didn't make myself clear and my previous statement was vague.

Please allow me to try this again. Prior to 2000, both WB for Boy Scout Leaders Junior Leader Training Course used identical curriculum. The entire course was identical, placing JLTC in for WB throughout the instructor guide.

The evening of day-three (or the return on the second weekend) was an artificial stressor, to cause the patrols to work harder on communication and leadership skills. In the previous courses WBforBSL and JLTC, all meals were issued by the QM with meal preparation instructions. Dinner day-three was the first meal, without written meal preparation instructions, which purpose caused conflict before the evening lesson.

Then in 2001, WB21C was launched, and then in 2004 NYLT was commenced. Similar timelines, and some similar themes, but now two different courses.

As I stated, WB21C is already on its fourth or fifth minor revision since 2000. Most recently, I think it was Stages of Team Development (an intellectual rights leased lesson topic from Ken Blanchard) was removed and Leading EDGE/Teaching EDGE (BSA owned) was introduced as its replacement. EDGE was already trademarked as a BSA material for the NYLT course, but took a few years to be brought into the WB21C revision.

Now, here is the thought I was intending to make in my previous post. WB21C has already taken a topic, a few years earlier introduced in NYLT. If Win All You Can is causing so much conflict between the participants, and between the participants and the staff, maybe the National BSA training committee can obtain a topic (like ethical decisions) from the NYLT curriculum, that causes some stress during the exercise, but does not fall into total chaos during the remainder of the evening.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Yes. I can agree with John in KC.

The NYLT has a different topic, ethical decisions at this time. (I don't have my NYLT literature in front of me now) I believe the decisions are Win-Win, Win-Lose, and Trivial during that class. If I recall correct the NYLT bottom line is that a person will usually have to select each one of these decisions, however Win-Win is usually be most beneficial.

Back to WB21C.

The Bottom Line "Everyone can win", can probably be delivered via a different game or event and following lesson. WB21C is already on the fourth or fifth minor revision in 10 years, with topics being deleted - added. National BSA Training Committee and Wood Badge Committee may look at an alternative game to deliver an "Everyone can win" message. Possibly the "Win All You Can" can be delivered with a totally different game that can have a similar message, without the confusion and hostility.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Wood Badgers,

I've seen the Wood Badge game show and "Win All You Can" played a few times.

At this point of the course, it places pressure on the patrols again, and put them back into the storming, norming phase. I've only attended full week course, but I believe this is Friday night (on the two weekend courses), which is after a month of socializing, laughing and maybe some team building by patrol members.

One Wood Badge game show was played high tech, with powerpoint and buzzers. The timing allowed for alot of arguments about correct answers. The patrols were already steaming by the time they started "Win All You Can".

On another occasion, the Wood Badge Game show was a hilarious fun. Instead of electric buzzers, the patrols had bells and bicycle horns. The questions were written on the back large colored bills, (1, 10, 100, etc). After the correct (or close to correct) answer, the host would throw the monopoly money at them. It was so fast pace, they never had time to count how much the won. But the participants were laughing and eager to earn more money.

On another occasion, as the class moved into the "Win All You Can", the game was so slow. The negotiator was allowed a minute. The patrols were allowed a minute to decide what card to display, and the call to display them now took about 30 seconds. It took about 3 rounds to understand the mission for the game, but the game still went on for about 9 rounds.

On another occasion, this game started less than a minute after the game show. Instructions were given our very quickly, no review. The negotiator was told they'd have 30 seconds, it lasted about 15 seconds. They were told the patrols had 10 seconds to decide with the negotiator. That lasted about 3-4 seconds. And the patrols were told to display their cards immediately. Essentially, the second version of the game was played so fast, the patrols did not have time to decide, they did not have time to make a rational thought, it was pretty much instinct reaction. When the game is played in a quick action of the game, without time for a patrol to discuss and decide may lead to selfish actions.

Now, I expect there is some difference in the debrief that is explained at the Course Directors Conference. Sometimes it may be more of a harsh "what were you thinking!?" and "You should be ashamed of yourself!" and "Your patrol is so horribly greedy!". To the extent that it may anger the participants. I personally don't think the debrief should even begin to follow that thread, but the usually do.

Whereas the debrief should serve as a reminder. "Scouting can be for every boy" and "Every Scout/Venturer can really benefit from Scouting and Venturing programs".

The game and exercise can be a fun event. And the debrief can serve a valuable purpose, if it is educational and not shameful.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Skeptic and Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

I view eBay dealers as source. It's up to the Scout/Scouter to be honest. Although, I try to find some sarcastic humor in the larger eBay dealers.

I've discussed with a few fellow Scouters around the campfire. My theory, I bet a majority of them are employees for some of the usual BSA patch manufacturers. And while a patch company is contracted for 100-500 limited edition patches, maybe another 50-100 fall of off the loom or assembly line, and accidently fall into a cardboard box that is carried home.

While patch imperfections or misspells are supposed to be shredded and destroyed, some imperfections are probably in an eBay dealers living room.

I'd wager, they probably make more off of eBay, than they do working at the various patch companies contracted by councils and lodges.

It's a shame though, that when a Council or Lodge has contracted for only 100 limited edition patches, and there are 200-250 limited editions in patch collections or worse, on a uniform.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

WestCoastScouter,

Greetings!

Past reasons...

Disagreements amongst adults. (Money, program, religion, politics, etc).

The Cubs will attend only if their parents bring/drive them. Almost the same for Boy Scouts and Venturers.

Youth may have a disagreement or fight, but they can usually resolve their anger in hours-days. Adults seem to carry a grudge for years.

The next Scout unit's program may be better organized or their program may be loosely thrown together. But if the parents are not fighting; and they are either talking about the next camping trip or talking about Monday Night Football and local politics, they will get along much easier.

So I expect it is disagreements amongst adults, which cause mass exodus leaving one scout unit and moving to another scout unit.

I believe it is the whole family buy in, that keeps a Scout in a troop. If the whole family is invested in a pack or troop, the parents will be more willing to resolve minor disagreements. If only the Scout is dropped off for an occasional meeting and the parents are not involved in the family-based pack or troop, then it is easy for a minor misunderstanding to cause a family (or flock of families) to move elsewhere.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

CPAMom,

Greetings!

There is a drop in membership between Webelos and Scouting. What the actual percentage numbers are, I don't know.

Regarding your first question. Anyone know what the problem is?

Some fellow forum members have given a few thought as to why 1st year Scouts (and families) go elsewhere. There are plenty of other things to occupy a 1st year Scouts time.

Here are my thoughts, as to the problems.. Not enough buy in, no advancement (camping), and no attention.

Here are my thoughts to resolve some of the problems.

There usually is not enough "buy in" from the 1st year Scouts and families. I would expect that a May AoL and Bridging Ceremony is far too late. The 1st year Scouts would not register for Summer Camp in less that 2 months. Dropping out of the troop (or watching attendance diminish) would probably occur before the next School year starts. The boys that dont go to Summer Camp, will go off for a family Summer vacation, and never return to Scouting.

Advancement between Scout thru First Class is camping/outdoor intensive. It is after First Class, that merit badge program and leadership become paramount. Honestly, I have met a few Scouting parents, whom were too afraid to let their son camp outside in the wood, and don't even mention about camping for a week. But the simple fact is, If they don't camp, they don't advance. If they don't advance, they lose interest and might as well stay at home play World of Warcraft or Madden 2010, and listen to the IPOD. 1st year Scouts need to camp, nearly every month.

I usually recommend AoL in the Fall, Bridging no later than March, and making Summer Camp deposit by April.

Finally Not enough attention. The 1st year Scouts are not Cubs any more. They are now Scouts. Parents and Webelos Leaders should be invited to serve on the Committee or as an ASM. But Troops often tell them, they cannot sign accomplishments in their own Scouts handbooks.

So who give attention to the 1st year Scouts? If they are camping and attending troop meetings their first Spring, Summer and Fall seasons. The Troop should camp and have weekly meetings with a plan that reinforces learning and advancement. The Senior Patrol Leader, the Troop Guides, the Instructors, and their Patrol Leaders should be paying attention to the advancement of all Scouts. The Scouts should be taught(learn), tested, reviewed and then recognized. Part of the advancement method begins with the troop leadership.

Each PLC, my troop ask our Patrol Leaders to report on advancements and to monitor their patrol members advancement status (handbooks).

Hopefully, your retention next year will be even greater, and more 1st year Scouts will stay and continue their trail.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Scoutfish,

Greetings!

John in KC pretty much summed it up. No district or council event occurs without planning. However, I would expect each year, request to conduct new events are applied for.

Straddling the fence.... You will never know if an event can be sanctioned, until you ask your local council camping committee.

Some events may never be sanctioned to occur at the unit level. Other unit level events may receive authorization and be sanctioned. New programs and new outdoor experiences are introduced to Scouting each year. Bu those concepts have to go thru a vetting process of safety, liability, skill level, finance, specific insurance cost, etc. Some ideas may just be too hazardous for any youth, and some new outdoor experiences may be brought to within safety limitations enough for a 10 y/o or maybe 14 y/o and older.

My own thoughts

Is it worth proposing an event to your local council? Certainly. But be willing to accept either an approval or a rejection.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Mom2Scouts06,

hmmm.. You can only add to it, but no permanently.

My wife is a Fox. (I'm an Owl and my oldest is a Beaver). It makes for some interesting nicknames when the whole family goes Bowling (haha). So I'll ask them what they've seen Foxes do to the program patrol token.

I've seen a few courses, where they've added a faux Fox tail to the service and program token. Looking on Amazon website, it appears that you can pick up fake fox tail toys in some local pet stores.

A set of beads, hung from two fox tails (or a rope with two fox tails instead of the wooden beads) would probably get a rise out of the SPL, ASM Program and Scoutmaster.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Kittle,

Other fellow forum members have asked a similar question. Not can a council, but can a unit release a scouts membership.

As I understand.. Youth are primarily registered with a Pack/Troop. The unit is registered with the Council.

My own interpretation. A Scout has to be involved in misbehavior of some type and some level (alcohol, drugs, bullying, harassment, fighting, sexual misconduct, etc).

The unit after learning about the misbehavior would provide the details to the Council. The council would provide their recommendation back to the unit. Some may be gravely serious enough for the unit to revoke membership. The council would probably inform other local Scoutmasters of a youth whom has had serious misconduct.

I've met a few adults at work over the years. They would state "Yeah, I got kicked out of the Scouts". I usually asked, "Did you misbehave and deserve it? and Did you really get kicked out or did you just not go back?"

These adults are just a little more mature than they were years ago. After a few second, the honesty comes out, and the answer usually sounds like Yeah I misbehaved and yeah they didnt really kick me out, I just never went back.

As I read it. It is the unit committee/unit leader that determines the membership of a youth.

The answer I refer to is in the G2SS Chapter one.

"The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit.

If problem behavior persists, units may revoke a Scout's membership in that unit. When a unit revokes a Scout's membership, it should promptly notify the council of the action.

The unit should inform the Scout executive about all incidents that result in a physical injury or involve allegations of sexual misconduct by a youth member with another youth member."

Whether a Scout is revoked membership kicked out or disciplined. Hopefully the final punishment is sufficient with the error. If their membership is revoked, hopefully it keeps other Scouts safe. If not, hopefully the Scout has now learned how to behave safely around other youth.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)