Crew21_Adv

Fellow Scouters and Venturers,

Greetings!

Although a different division of the BSA. Let's not forget about Learning for Life, and the various career Explorers.

OT, If Venturing just doesn't satisfy your curiousity. Possibly you can visit your local Council Office, and ask if there is a Law Enforcement or Fire Department Explorer Post in your neighborhood.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

jewelofdnl74,

Greetings!

Here is a question.

Could you transfer Den Leader to another adult leader and assume Assistant Cubmaster?

Here is my story, then I'll ask you a few questions....

Like a few other friends, I bounced back and forth between Boy Scouting, Cub Scouting, and Venturing over the years.

I felt pretty comfortable as Cubmaster (and emcee), I also knew the major programs coming up in the next 2-3 months. But I knew that I didn't do it alone, the advancement chair lined up the advancements, the den leaders worked directly with their dens, the treasurer had cash money coming and going weekly. My tenure as Cubmaster, I loved handing out the ranks, high fives and cheers, but I had the DL's hand out the monthly belt loops, activity pins, tiger paws and etc. I brought up a committee member for "announcements". I was only the emcee, but the Pack meeting was put on by all the Den Leaders and the Cubs. As emcee, I was constantly running on/off stage, I think I was up there maybe 15 minutes a night. But it was broken up into 15 separate one-minute ceremonies, introductions, and cheers.

Probably even more, I was the time-keeper, our Pack meetings were fun, but I was adamant about an hour ceremony with 100 Cubbies, plus parents.

Even my ACMs were up there on stage, with comments, jokes and scripts and recognitions. The ACMs didn't get a break during the Pack Meetings.

I made sure the DL's knew the upcoming theme of the month (2-3 months in advance), and sometimes issued some equipment and flyers to help them, but they put on the den meeting program/workshops.

Now... In my commissioning role. I've visited some great Pack meetings. Some CMs took a role similar to mine. Some CMs were business men (or business ladies) who ran the pack like a committee while the ACMs/DLs had fun.

Believe me, the cubbies and the families could recognize each role. They knew who got the bus, who organized the hike, who handed out permission slips and historic guides. And who was singing songs, playing games, leading cheers and making learning fun. That style of CM was still very effective since they had a great staff, but it was vastly different from my style.

My bottom line is. All the Cubs knew who I was, but they also knew the Assistant Cubmasters, they also got to see their Den Leader/Assistant Den Leader (parents) participate in recognitions, as well as their DLs being recognized each year.

So back to you and your pack.

If you were the ACM, could you participate in the Pack meetings more? Could you be recognized for your work and performance? What would your son enjoy seeing you do DL or ACM, or eventually CM? What would give you more job satisfaction?

I don't think anyone on the forum will tell you to step up or step back. But our fellow Scouter forum members may comment/advice and help you to decide to step up or step back.

Good Luck in your decisions!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

I may be coming into this string late, but I picked up on the last comment from hendrickms24 and what BrotherhoodWWW pointed out.

hendrickms24 had previously stated.

"I'm not going to be the Merit badge counselor for any of my son's Merit badges because I know it's a big no no."

Here is how it is handled in my troop.

My troop desires to use the district list of MBC Counselors that we receive from the Council Registrar. I think the SM Handbook states that the SM will direct the boy to a counselor, but we use our advancement chair to identify a counselor.

My troop has on occasion had a Scouting parent, committee member or ASM that possessed a fine skill or extensive knowledge (Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, and etc as well as sports/hobbies) that would easily satisfy Merit Badge requirements. We have them immediately fill out an additional application (one for a unit position, another application for MBC) then they fill out the MBC Counselor Survey. Then we submit it all to the council registrar.

My troop would prefer that a Scout and buddy go to another MBC to complete their requirements for a Merit Badge, but my troop is not going to hold a Scout back from advancing. We will allow parents to counsel their own son, but first they must be fully registered MBCs, and the MB is offered to the entire troop.

If their own Scout(parent and son) is the only taker, like Acco40 said C'est la vi.

The Scout applied for a MB with the SM, our Adv Chair identified an MBC. The MBC promoted the MB to the troop. And on rare occasion the MB was completed with just the son and parent.

My troop's committee doesn't have a problem with integrity, as long as the permission was asked for (MB application) and the troop knows a parent is counseling their own son on that MB.

Now Specifically for Mark M. (hendrickms24), I believe on Scouting.org there is a supplemental training for Merit Badge Counselors. There is also a three page Merit Badge Counselors handout.

Beyond Scouting.org, there are many council and district websites that have personal-created powerpoints on Blue Card applications and the Merit Badge process.

Good luck to your son!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

NealOnWheels and Fellow Scouters,

Just to add to the mass confusion.

I just checked my BALOO Syllabus again. There is a Round Robin session called "Cub Scout Cooking".

In my district, we have usually taught during IOLS were adults learn about patrol cooking and although they sanitize, food prep, cook, and KP, as an entire group just to gain the experience. Then, we teach them that a PL will fill out a fair duty roster with his patrol, dividing up the various duties.

We make the comparison during BALOO, that in a troop there is patrol cooking and the youth actually clean, cook and wash as a patrol. But during Cub Scout cooking, it is a parent-child event, to sanitize, prep, cook, then wash.

Just some inconsistencies in few of the BSA literature. A friend on a national handbook committee showed me (just over 10 years ago) that the previous Cub Scout Bicycling (parent-child) Pin had to ride about 50 miles further than a Boy Scout earning the Bicycling Merit badge, that was in the Sports and Academic literature for about 15 years until Sports and Academic Program pamphlets was changed/renamed to the Cub Scout Academic and Sports Program.

Maybe with the recent re-organization at national they will review their minor inconsistencies in their literature again.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

moxieman,

Greetings!

Silver Award Ceremonies and associate Venturing Awards like the Ranger Award are still fairly recent when compared with Eagle Scout Award and Ceremonies. There are many Eagle Scout Rank webpages, resources, ceremonies and recognition gifts that can be found. But not many Venturing ceremonies can be found online.

CNYScouter gave you one link to a ceremony on the National Venturing Youth Cabinet webpage (I believe there were about 2 or 3 more Ranger ceremonies on that page). They are good resources!

To follow CNYScouters idea. My advice and request to pass on, since we are here to share ideas.

From the webpage, contact the National Venturing President Matthew M., and your Northeast Regional Venturing President Amy C., and Cabinet Webpage Advisor Craig Murray. Ask if they have any additional Ranger Ceremonies that you may request.

Or, if in your local Council you create a pretty good script for a Ranger ceremony, share it, and offer your new script back to the region and national officers, to be posted on their website.

For gifts, maybe a black powder powderhorn, a leather haversack, a new GPS or a brass compass, a helmet for either rafting, ROPE/climbing, or biking.

Congrats to Rangers in your district!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

tcora,

Greetings!

John in KC gave the accurate answer. I was looking for the link to the Unit Money Earning Application as well.

Just to note. Similar discussions regarding wearing of the uniform and fundraising have occurred on this and other Scouting forums.

This application, like other BSA documents, has been updated slightly over the years. I seem to recall years ago, it had more constraining restrictions regarding when a Scout may wear the BSA uniform during fundraising listed on the backside of that application. Thankfully BSA has relaxed it to allow Councils to determine if a uniform can be worn during authorized fund raising event.

Of course, you will find Scout units that do not submit an application, then go ahead and sell fireworks or etc.

Just for the humor of this topic. I believe I've posted this before; About 10-15 years ago there was a 30 minute infomercial with a Scout troop praising a certain fishing rod/lure set on a stage that looked like a rustic cabin. I remember seeing the infomercial fairly frequently. Eventually, about two months later the information continued to run on TV, but the uniforms, logos and ranks were pixilated and blurred. While still the same infomercial, they were now a group of preteen and teenage boys and a few adults with tan shirts on, endorsing a fishing rod and lure. Obviously, the local troop which received fishing equipment for the infomercial never sought permission and the advertising agency never sought permission.

Good Luck in your popcorn sales!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Crossramwedge,

Greetings!

Eagle Scout is a high accomplishments and achievement that I applaud. Any potential Scout should only achieve Eagle Scout if he has met all of the existing requirements (nothing more, nothing less).

Now after some Scouts do achieve Eagle Scout, as eghiglie pointed out, I say most all Eagle Scout soar and just a few fall from the nest. They will know what kind of Eagle Scouts they are, and how their personal character was displayed when taking the easy road on the Scouting trail.

A candidate does not have to be signed off favorably by any Board of Review. A candidate can receive a "Youth interviewed who are not advancing". If the entire board is not in agreement that a Scout is ready for the next rank. It is unfortunate, but if a Scout demonstrates apathy or disdain towards Scouting to a board, the committee may not be in complete agreement to advance the youth.

I guess I mean. An adult leader cannot stop or stonewall a Scout from advancing. An adult leader can expect all Scouts to meet the same advancement requirements. For this Scout you've commented about; don't treat him special, but treat him fairly. Either he will be eligible for advancement or he won't.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

kittle,

Greetings!

A Scout can go to a Board of Review for two reasons, to see if they are ready for the next rank, and also to see why they are not advancing, usually those Scouts are not camping or not bringing their handbook.

A Scout can receive two answers from a BOR. "Advanced", and "Not yet ready for advancement". It is not a fail, it is not taken back, it is not yet ready for advancement.

I concur with emb021 statement. Rank cannot be taken back. The Scout should bring their handbook to an advancement BOR. Was your son's handbook signed off as completing a BOR? Is it possible that he received a "not yet ready for advancement"?

If his handbook was signed by the BOR members, an advancement report should have been submitted. Your troop cannot take back a rank.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouter and Fellow Arrowmen,

Regarding Scoutldr post. I can share the same sentiment. I've driven and accompanied election teams a few times. Sometimes the Arrowmen may know a few Scouts in the other troop, sometimes I know a few leaders and Scouts.

But at the end of the election. Usually the election team is extremely happy with the results. When every Scout nominated by the Scoutmaster is voted in, the Chapter election team is very happy.

In other troops and on other nights, sometimes, the election team has walked away with 1 out of 10, 1 out of 20 being successfully elected in. Sometimes they never know the character of the Scout, but only that one single Scout barely exceeded 50 percent of the vote. The election team can only imagine that the troop did not understand the rules (repeated numerous times), or they do not believe many of them are worthy of the honor of becoming an Arrowman. After the election team walks out of the troop meeting location, we rarely have said Ouch! That was brutal.

But after the troop votes, there is nothing more the election team can do. All the election team can do is submit the election tally report to the chapter/lodge registrar.

Hopefully, the one Scout voted into the OA in those troops are honesty worthy of the OA brotherhood; and regretfully their own fellow Scouts have missed the opportunity to elect a few additional excellent Arrowmen candidates.

To add to this disappointment, is when the parents don't send their candidate Scout (their son) to the Ordeal weekend. My Chapter and Lodge always have a percentage of elected candidates that never attend an Ordeal.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

FrankBoss,

Greetings!

Youve already been explained the basic purposes and programs of the OA.

A few comments to add.

The OA Lodge invites all nominated candidates to the OA Ordeal. The candidates are not "hand selected by the Lodge-Chapter, all that are elected in their own troops are invited. Probably a better question to ask would have been, how do the Scouts in a troop elect Arrowmen into the OA.

Here is what is stressed to the troops during election.

From the Guide to OA Officers and Advisors during election; stress the following points: Select the candidates who, in your opinion, have set the best example of brotherhood, cheerfulness and service. Vote only for those you believe will continue in unselfish service to your troop/team.

As far as the OA Officers that lead the Lodge, they are again elected by their fellow youth Arrowmen in the Chapter and Lodge. Similar to an SPL being elected in a troop.

Not all Scoutmasters allow their youth to participate in OA. (In a few councils they use a similar, but still different program Mic-o-say). This is unfortunate to not allow Scouts in a troop the opportunity to be a member of the OA. I have one troop in my local area, that doesn't desire an election team visit. They begin to think they will lose valuable troop leadership (PLs and SPLs) to the Chapter and Lodge. This is not true, if should create more Scouting synergy and more benefits by having a troop Arrowmen actively participate in their Chapter and Lodge events. The Arrowmen would help their fellow Scout and Tenderfoot achieve Second and First Class Scout ranks. Most Arrowmen will normally be motivated to continue on their own Scouting trail.

So in addition to the purpose and benefits already explained to you. I feel OA would be of direct benefit to the Scouts in your troop.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

ScoutMomAng,

Greetings!

There are probably a few variations of this skit. The most common one I've seen only takes two characters.

Here is what I've usually seen.

Usually the two characters are on a long distance telephone with static (yeah I guess that's old) or maybe a cell phone now with bad reception coverage.

A Scouting buddy has written a book, 101 Things To Do With A Bandana, during his break time between Merit Badge Sessions. He is excited about writing the new book that he wants to sell in the trading post and wants his friend to review the book and critique the methods.

The two characters are yelling into their phones due to bad reception and the second "stooge" is slowly apprehensive about trying everything out, but gives it a try anyhow.

First you open the bandana.

Then you can wipe your forehead on a hot day

Then you can wipe the back of your neck on a really hot day

Then you can dry your ears have coming back from Swimming merit badge

Then you can blow your nose, in case you've caught a cold from swimming the freezing water

After about 5-6 different things you can do. You need to fold it neatly (at least two folds) and put it into your pocket for the next time.

After the bandana is in the pocket, the leader says you need to pat it down really good, so it doesn't leave a bulge in the pocket.

The leader states that he's really got to go now (cause the next MB Session is about to begin), and thanks his friend for reviewing the book and trying out everything. In a rush they say their goodbyes.

Good Luck at finding a script online. Probably most will explain the set up, because most of this skit is adlibbed during the skit. But more results would probably be found if you search for Bandana-Banana instead of Yellow Bandana.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

iwannaBaCubscout,

In another organization I belong to, just a few years ago, a buddy of mine was the top performer of the year out of 10,000 peers. He received a plaque, lapel pin, handshakes, pat on the back and etc.

The next year, he was nominated (multiple times by many peers) to a board position, he accepted and was voted in.

It was the wrong decision; he is still a great guy, but totally incapable of fulfilling that specific board position. Six months into the year, I had to ask him to resign the board position so that we could hold a special election just to replace him. A great guy, good friend, well meaning, but we barely recovered from the administrative damage that he caused.

dg98adams gave you good advice. As the Committee Chair for your unit, be sure that you have a trained and qualified adult that can assume Cubmaster duties. (it would probably create more havoc to remove a failing leader without having any quality replacement at all)

Further, how would I handle this.

I would go to your current Cubmaster and ask him if he would prefer either an easier job or more help to accomplish his task. Possibly the Cubmaster has good plans but needs an Assistant Cubmaster or secretary to carry out those plans. Or possibly he/she needs to allow someone else (better qualified) to assume Cubmaster. Then hold a special election, as you do in May.

Good Luck!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

Fellow Scouters,

If I can comment

I have served in a few councils and on just a few Wood Badge staffs in a few councils.

One Council I served with, read the vague directions in the WB21C guide. Although the guide will not explicitly state a rule, it became the interpretation from a vague instruction.

I guess that is how Urban Legends are born. The rational many of the trainers had was; if a manual states an action specifically, then the absence of a follow-on statement must mean that the action must come to an end. My fellow Scouters in that Council read what was written, then "read into" what was not written and added their own rational.

I dont have my Admin Guide with me at this moment; but it kind of stated, Wood Badge staff members may wear their third bead. That statement is fairly much written into the Admin Guide.

So here is what is not written, and bear along with me.....

The rational is, after 18 months, a Scouter may possibly no longer staff WB again, and therefore they no longer serve on staff, and therefore no longer a staffer, and therefore no longer eligible to wear the third bead.

So I doubt Twocubdad or any Scouter will ever find any instruction stating that you must remove your third bead after a course is over (practical course plus 18 month of application phase). But we will probably encounter Scouters that read too much into policy that is not written and doesn't actually exist. Then during the course director conference (these are great Scouters, but they too make mistakes) will state a vague "Urban Legend" policy as the absolute truth and absolute meaning of the Uniform Guide.

As for me... I've served five (full week) WB and WB21C courses, two (full week) NYLT courses, maybe 25-30 Intro to Outdoor Skills, and a handful of other seminars. They'll have to fight me, to take my third bead away.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

WestCoastScouter and Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

If I can tell a brief story. A Scouting friend of mine states that Scouters must attend EDGE before they can be a district trainer. If you read the EDGE, it is required (at a minimum) to staff NYLT and Wood Badge. It would certainly help to be a district trainer (training the specifics courses) but it is not required for that level.

Similarly, you do not need to have earned a Merit Badge in your youth, to be a Merit Badge Counselor. I believe the minimum requirement is an adult application and the Merit Badge Counselor Application stating hobby, vocation or avocation, to demonstrate the experience in a Merit Badge.

So.. BALOO does not have the topic of Wood Tools or Whittling Chit. But the experience of working with pocket knives and the safety required to make sure Cubs perform safely is required. Attending BALOO and dialoguing with fellow Cub Scout leaders and seasoned staff may enhance your knowledge of safety and knife use appropriate for an 8 y/o Cubbie.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

WestCoastScouter,

Two of my favorite simple skits for Cub Scout age.

"There's a Bear" and "Tracks"

Theres a Bear

The den lines up, with their head tilted and speaking with a slow southern drawl.

1st Cub - Thar's a Bear! (sounds like Bar though)

2nd Cub - Whar?

1st Cub - Over thar! (point to the right with his full left arm)

2nd Cub - Thar's a Bear!

3rd Cub - Whar?

2nd Cub - Over thar! (points just like 1st Cub did)

(Continues down the line, then repeats with pointing to the left with the right arm crossing arms, then repeats with pointing to the right with left foot and both arms crossed, then on the last time 1st Cub says "Over THAR!" and swing his left arm to the left knocking them all down like dominoes)

Tracks

Very easy for Tigers.

The Den Leader and Assistant Den Leader pretend they are taking a hike in front of the room. Both claim to Outdoor experts. One stops and says "Take a look at that".

Then they argue their expertise, while the DL continues to claim those are "Bear tracks". The ADL disagrees and continues to argue that they are "Wolf tracks". Both of them being seasoned Cub Scout leaders they know exactly what kind of tracks those are.

Finally the den of Tigers (with the help of a parent in the back) shuffles directly infront of the argument, 1st Tiger holding a flashlight in front, and they all saying "choo-choo".

Then the DL's finally agree... "Train Tracks!"

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

ahofer,

Also...

I think many adult Scouters and a few youth Scouts join this forum to discuss Scouting. To discuss how to deliver a program. And sometimes, how to work thru a dilemma.

One of your final statements, I would expect most all Scouters do fundamentally concur with, and desire the best for any youth.

ahofer said "My own concern was also to get this scout (and other agnostic scouts) to think before they blurt out "I'm an atheist" before an Eagle board of review. I believe many who think of themselves as atheists may really be agnostic, and as I said in prior posts, all an agnostic has to do is really THINK about the creation around them to find a spiritual core. And that can be called God by anyone."

Now, regarding the original post made by Edge. There are a few people (non Scouters) that will join this and any other webpage forums just to stimulate controversy for their own entertainment. Some of them are legitimate, but some of them pose as; young girls stating they were raped by their father on anti-abortion pro-life forums. Posing as Young adult men unsure of their own sexuality after leaving a catholic church retreat. Posing as Native Americans asking why the government wants to drill on "their land". Posing on webpages as illegal immigrants asking why their grandma was shot at by the "minute man militia". Many of these posers create dialogue that digresses into angry emotional debates over extremely controversial topics. The poser never really seems to care about the topic, they only want to be entertained.

One of my first responses in this thread was about a forum member on Scouter.com about 3 years ago; this member stated he(she) would ask one simple question and only wanted one simple answer. What seemed like 20 pages later, and what seemed like a thousand answers, and the new forum member declined to accept any answer. That was that forum members only discussion, and it was only to create havoc between forum members and entertain him (or her).

In my earlier post, I stated;

"Reminds me of the forum member that asked a question, and said "just give me one reason". This specific forum member received a few hundred answers and responses, but after every reason (a few hundred reasons) the forum member would reply "I don't believe it" or "I don't buy into that".

Some of Edge's comments in his original post, could be legit, but some of Edge's comments in the very first post made myself (and maybe a few others) skeptical of Edges legitimacy and honesty.

Maybe EdgeofThorns is truly a 17 y/o Life Scout wondering if he is agonistic or if there really is a God and does he really have any faith. (If this is actually true, I wish him luck).

Or maybe Edge is a 30'something, anti-social, video game playing, hater and forum poser that laughs at any serious dialogue digressing into a heated debate, all for Edge's entertainment value.

From the original post, I have a hard time believe Edge is really a 17 y/o honestly looking for advice on a webpage.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

ahofer,

Greetings!

I enjoyed the tone of your second post. You presented fair opinions and statements without exerting a hostile controversy.

I hope we are on even ground now. We may enjoy different opinions, but we are cautious in presenting them as fact. (Any fellow poster that states percentage or similar will be questioned on it in this forum or other forums)

Also, it is easy to get emotional about a forum topic, and type a slur or insult like troll or fanatic. We all have probably done it either face to face, in an email or on a webpage forum. Then after learning how easy it is to offend a fellow forum member or we learn to guard our words, and type a slur or insult when we really mean to offend or confront.

Finally, Regarding BSA and all religions: I would expect there are many more through the US, but if you ever have the opportunity to Scout in Hawaii, quite a few chartering organizations or Buddhist Temples/Churches, and practice the Buddhist faith (while I practice my own faith) during Summer camp or weekend camporees. Unfortunately, I've never had the opportunity to meet any Boy Scouts of America from the Hindi faith, only members of the Scout Association that practiced Hindi.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

EdgeofThorn said "I am an "atheist," and "I'm assuming you think I'm a troll"

It seems Edge started the name calling. Edge even offered the idea.

ahofer said "that only a small percentage of BSA members are religious fanatics -- the rest of us are with you"

I wonder where these statistics and percentages are from?? I guess ahofer has become the spokesperson for whoever "the rest of us" are, and their entire Scouting population.

Equally, isn't calling Scouts that make a declaration of religious principal a fanatic disrespectful? A "godly" person would never say anything like that. With those words you proved YOURSELF unreverent! (Disrespectful of others). Shame on ahofer.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Scoutstuff.org is on facebook.com? posting erroneous information.

Oh good grief.

What's next? We'll be signing off handbook requirements in twitter.com and advancement reports on myspace?

Good thing the new uniform has that pocket for their ipod/cellphone. lol

Now regarding the difference between Boy Scout Forest Green and Venturing Kelly Green. I concur, they have been two different colors for the past year.

But if local council stores follow suit with Scoutstuff.org, we may just have one choice of green loops for both programs in the near future.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

SctDad,

Greetings!

My chapter has had the misunderstanding by parents and other Scouters as well. That we are nothing more than "Free Child Labor". We attempt to demonstrate that we are that, plus more.

I ask for 50/50... Half work and half fun. And try to get the chapters buy in. Many of our youth Arrowmen don't drive themselves, so we have to find a draw for the parents (some are Arrowmen, some are not).

During business meeting and script rehearsal, they drink rootbeer and eat beef jerky. After business meeting we watch maybe 30 minutes of Last of the Mohicans (okay it is the Hollywood version of the book based on the French-Indian wars (actually French vs British Colonist in the New York, Canadian border area). It is definitely not the history channel version, its Hollywood, but its just for the fun and entertainment.

On other events, the Chapter has gone for pizza and to the movies before. And has also had a work day, and gaming afternoon at the local campsite.

It is a challenge. But we try to find what is both fun and will draw the Arrowmen out.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

John and kahits,

Greetings!

Yes maybe I did ramble on.

My thoughts, to attempt to be more brief.

If kahits daughter did speak and set these goals with the crew advancement chairman (before the summer); I would agree, the goals were set (obtain the signature (or email endorsement) from the past advancement chair) then the Advisor should qualify that these goals were met.

If kahits daughter did not set any goals and entered into no agreement with the advancement chair. I applaud the accomplishments of kahits daughter (hiking the mountain trail in PTC and Powderhorn are significant events), but without preplanning these goals (without anyone), I would have her set another set of goals. If I was her advisor, I would not require lofty dynamic goals (her accomplishments are significant to demonstrate her Venturing Spirit). I would desire her to plan simple personal growth goals that can easily be accomplished, subsequent to an agreed upon plan.

As a Crew Advisor, I do not withhold my signature (as thought it was a presidential decree or "the goose that laid the golden egg"). I happily give my signature away, after accomplishments enormous and monumental or minor accomplishments. (and after following procedures).

My question is. Did kahits daughter establish these as goals with the previous advancement chair? If yes, Then they were established goals and she did her part of the job by pre-planning.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

kahits,

Greetings!

Here is my opinion.

Sometimes reading the Bronze, Gold and Silver Award. The Bronze is a big step it seems to take a year (at the quickest pace) or longer to complete, in any of the categories.

To myself. The Gold demonstrates planning activities and leadership. I previously viewed Silver to be on par with Eagle Scout, but have since changed my mind. Gold requires letters of recommendation, and a Crew Review and seems to have the difficulty level of Eagle Scout. The Silver Award seems to be a continuation on the path, like Eagle Palms.

The Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook and Eagle Scout Rank Application have many Scouting.org, council, district and unit level instructions on how to properly fill out the applications and whom to obtain signatures from and when. But there is a lack of specific instructions for filling out the Gold and Silver Award Applications or documenting inside the Venturing/Ranger Handbook.

On the Gold application, it does appear that goal approval comes before goal completion and Personal Growth Goal Achievement qualification. It does not state how great, monumental and tremendous these goals must be. But I would expect them to fall under the acronym SMART goals.

kahits, you did state that she talked with the advancement chair, did your daughter discuss these goals? The Gold Award item 5 (Personal Growth Goals) is approved by either a crew committee member or the advisor. If she discussed and planned these goals with the Crews Advancement Chairman, there should not be any problem obtaining the signature. Your Council Advancement Committee should agree to that.

If I were her advisor, especially after some tremendous accomplishments of a Philmont Mountain Trek or Powderhorn, I would not care to qualify a struggle or exhausted Venturer accomplish a tremendous goal. I would care that GOLD Award candidate followed the instructions correctly, set six goals, discussed them and accomplished them.

To myself, After illustrating that she can demonstrate leadership and outdoor skills. Heck, she can set those goals and accomplish them in one meeting. I would be concerned that she (or any Venturer) can follow procedures, set goals and accomplish goals.

I have seen Eagle Applications that where completely halted or rejected, because the youth never read the application and the Scoutmaster decided that council/district advancement approval signatures was not required. Also, a Life Scout that did a project for no benefactor, so the family signed as benefactor. I've seen two Life Scouts (showing up for a photo opportunity) on a project that they did not plan or lead, and their unit submitted two rank applications without service project workbooks.

I am not trying to be mean here. But fellow forum members have discussed the steps to Eagle here in our forum, and not adding any more but not accepting any less. For a Eagle Project I am happy with the candidate leading 2 or more Scouts for more than 2 (or more) hours, they will know how much work they put into their project. Why should we expect less of a Gold Award candidate?

Should the personal growth goals be difficult, no. Should the personal growth goals be an accomplishment, yes. Should the personal growth goals, be planned goals, yes.

I can just imagine your Council Advancement Chair reviewing the Venturing/Ranger Handbook along with the Advancement Committee Policy and Procedure Handbook, were it also states "Gold requires a pre-approved plan of action", and while applauding your daughters effort, agreeing that she did not follow procedures or the steps to Gold Award.

The Advisor, Crew Committee or Council should not make it difficult to accomplish the leadership and outdoor goal. But, in accordance with written procedures, the Crew should make sure any venturers personal growth goals are planned, and then accomplished.

Hopefully your daughter can easily create two leadership and outdoor goals (not as colossal as Philmont and Powderhorn) with the Crew committee, and rapidly accomplish them.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Eagle92,

Thanks!

I think you've said you were a professional Scouter before. At least the professional Scouters would have a better knowledge of the data entries. The entries are usually only done via online advancements or by one single registrar per council. So while I've seen printouts and discussed the databases and ScoutNET, I can only appreciate it from a distance.

I would not have expected Webelos Activity pins to be in ScoutNET.

I have experienced quite a few adults, parents and Scouters that falsely believe ScoutNET maintains all data, just exactly like the commercial databases. i.e. camping nights, volunteer hours, certain special awards like mile swim or snorkeling, TLT, DLC, and etc.

If a Scout transfers and looses their handbook. Only rank advancement and items needed for rank advancement will be in there. But not each and every sub-requirement/line signature from the handbook.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

PACK15NISSAN and Fellow Scouters,

PACK15, I think you handled it correctly. You asked the correct questions to the parent, then asked the parent to facilitate communications with the previous WDL. I don't think there is a better way.

I think ScoutNut stated it correctly regarding ScoutNET. The ScoutNET2000 should have primarily advancement items, which are quiet fewer database entries than Packmaster, Troopmaster, Ranknfile (now obsolete) and Scoutsoft.

ScoutNET would have the ranks Tiger, Wolf, Bear and Webelos and the Arrow of Light Award. But I do not believe that ScoutNET has data entries for the Webelos Activity pins. Packmaster would, but ScoutNET would not. If the Webelos has earned his Webelos badge, that should reflect in ScoutNET, but his completed and earned activity pins I don't think will be found in the ScoutNET.

Also. ScoutNET files Scouts and Adult leaders by their Scout ID Number (found on the annual membership card), under their unit and numerically under the council number. The registrar at the current council would have to have the Scouts ID number, previous council number to access his records. I understand this is for child safety reasons. Council registrar can only see members of their council, unless the record is electronically transferred or released. I tell my Scouting leaders and families, it is just like transferring schools and colleges, it is not an automatic deal. A transcript needs to be forwarded to the receiving council, as though it was a different college reviewing a credit transcript.

So, it is after the fact, the Webelos has already transferred.

During Specifics training, it seems record keeping paperwork comes right after safety.

The family should continue to look for the book, unless they threw it away. It is probably still in an unpacked box or at the bottom of the toy closet. The parent should purchase a school backpack just for carrying scouting literature, permission slips and handbooks(like putting a gas station restroom key tethered to a cinder block).

The previous Pack should go to training, if they are not record keeping (shame on them).

The parent should go to a Pack or Troop parents orientation, if the parent is not record keeping along with their son (shame on them).

Maybe by boy scouting, the Scouts should be responsible for carrying their handbooks and merit badge applications (along with the pamphlet and homework). But for a Webelos, I think this parent is negligent is aiding their son.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

jac0033,

Also. Just to add..

You will hear alot of "trading protocol", here are a few that I remember, and our fellow forum members will probably chime in...

I doubt a common camp patch or council patch would fetch much in return. It is the NSJ CSP and NSJ OA Flaps that they desire. Special NSJ issue, ghost patches, and NSJ puzzle patches or NSJ patch sets seem to be higher demand.

As Chippewa29 stated, it is really the Scouts trading with other Scouts. Usually Scouts are out trading with their buddy(buddies). If a patch is on display, don't touch it unless allowed by the trader. (I have seen just a few adult Scouters wearing gloves to handle their displayed patches to trade) But the common etiquette usually transcends to the youth Scouts as well.

A common rule in the deal is final after a handshake. A deal can be withdrawn before the handshake, even if you are handling, viewing or holding the patch, the handshake is the contact agreement. The handshake is the key to all of the trades.

As Chippewa29 said. There will be youth traders and Scout traders on the side of the roads at NSJ. They are reminded in handbooks to not trade between youth and adults.

That being said, I have been walk thru merit badge midway, and some of my Scouts come running to find me, to drag me back to an adult. What did I do? I was like a chief negotiator between North and South Korea. It happened a few times, when only the adults had NSJ limited issue patches remaining to trade. I never really made the decision, I was more of the translator-conduit.

Finally. An old Scouting friend of mine tells me for regular trading at your local camporees, conclave, and local events. A Scout that has attended NSJ can hold any traded NSJ backpatch (or special patch) on its side and say "keep stacking" until they are satisfied with the vertical height of the stack. At least (he says) that is what the NSJ experienced Scouts did back in the 60's-70's.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv