Crew21_Adv

Be_Prepared,

There always seem to be varations of Camp Songs. Drive an hour down the interstate to another Council Camp and they will sing the same song, in a different beat, or words. But most of these you can google the lyrics and tune, and find which songs you enjoy.

Even most recently, if you youtube "Camp Songs", there are hundreds from various types of camps. And variations on the audience participations songs as well.

For audience participation songs, I like...

My Aunt Came Back.

Dum-dum, dah-dah.

An Austrian Went a Yodeling.

The Pirate Song. (When I was one)

There was a Moose. (who like to drink allota Juice)

The Penguin Song (Penguins Attention! Penguins Salute!)

Other audience participation songs I enjoy are...

One Finger, one Thumb, Keep Moving.

Lord Baden Powell, Had Many Scouts.

She'll be coming around the mountain.

Waddileacha.

Let me know if you can't find the songs and motions.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Arrowmen,

Greetings!

Again, Congrats to Buffalo Skipper!

Also, I highly agree with hotair36!

The BSA program is primarily for the youth boys (and Venturing/Explorer girls), we all know that. The Advancement system is based around learning, testing, being recognized and promoted. But I believe in the literature, it states that the BSA is a family based program.

Adult leaders equally need recognition from time to time. The trucks, the cars, the vans, the busses and the trailers don't drive themselves to camp. Camping funds don't miraculously appear in the troop banking account. I comment about this once a year, during Roundtable, and place the responsibility on the Committee Chairs. Pack, Troop, Crew, District or Executive Chairperson. In addition to managing adult volunteers, they should recognize them annually, with a patch, mug, jacket, DAM square knot or SB medal.

We should strive to have a boy led (and Venturing youth led) program, but meanwhile we need the Adult Association, to help manage our programs.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

Mom2Scouts06,

Greetings!

As I read this threat, I caught on to the "Program" beads. It had briefly confused me (and I don't need any more confusion, haha).

I believe per the curriculum they call upon two items to represent service and program. The spade and the kudu horn.

When you referred to Program Beads, I was understanding the giant beads.

Some course carry a large set of beads for fun. It is similar to a Roundtuit. For minor infractions of tardiness, talking during a presentation or lack of Scoutiquette (unScout-like behavior/grey area wisecracks). If a patrol is late, they receive a large set of beads or a roundtuit.

I've staffed a few courses, once where the Scoutmaster stated he would never use giant WB beads to negatively discipline a staffer, learner or patrol!! Never, it was not going to happen! Then on day-one the "roundtuit" came out, it was about the size of a steering wheel.

Other courses do not like the visual reminder of not to be late; and think that a negative recognition, will encourage more tardiness, or more unScout-like/grey area comments.

Some learners and staffers get a kick out of how many times they can be disciplined and received the beads. I too think it is funny, and can bring laughter into the middle of a program. But it can easily become distracting and take away from the ceremony, assembly, or lesson. So a Course Director if they use giant beads, needs to regulate their use, and stick the giant beads on their walking stick after a while.

I guess the giant beads will flow along with the temperament and general attitude of the Scouters in your community. Sometimes you will see them every course and moving every few minutes, some councils will never use them.

Now regarding program patrol beads, the program patrol will wear them for 24 hours, singing Scout songs while learners gather for the next program/lesson, and etc. While the service patrol is carrying water, coffee, trashbags, brooms and etc. Until the next morning assembly. The WB Critters sometime adorn or decorate the program/service items as a critter would. Bobwhites have created a nest for the token, Eagles have painted items red, white and blue, Bears have attached a lunch box, Beavers have gnawed thru the wood. Antelopes have hot glue gunned antlers (twigs and sticks) onto the service and program tokens. Sometimes permanent, sometimes temporary.

If you shared what WB Patrol Critter you are, maybe the forum can add to those ideas as well.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

SctDad,

Greetings!

Working with teenagers is difficult. A Chapter Advisor is not only discussing and planning with them. An Advisor is planning OA ceremonies with the Arrowmen's Troops, Scoutmasters, football/baseball coaches and parents.

My chapter has been successful in having our first OA hosted Arrow of Light ceremony in quiet a few years. Our Chapter picked the weekend, spot, location and even time. Then the Chapter created a flyer and announced the AoL ceremony to all the local packs. It was almost painful, getting the equipment, regalia, even OA parent permission for a few, we even had to have the fire department inspect

My local Chapter has been invited to a few Pack AoL ceremonies and a few bridging over ceremonies. But my Chapter has had to graciously decline the invitation and restate our chapter's ceremony. The Packs (and parents) have been told that they are welcomed to conduct ceremonies by the campfire or on the camp grounds, but their ceremony will be after our Chapter Arrow of Light Ceremony ends.

It may sounds petty, but it worked out fairly well. The Webelos, Den Leaders, Cubmasters and parents came to us. They were very happy to attend an OA ceremony. We exceeded 1/2 of the packs in our district/chapter area. The feedback was very positive. So our Chapter believes we will follow this model for the next few years. Hosting on our time, date, location and convenience, and they will come to us.

It may not work for every Chapter, and larger Chapters may attend every Pack ceremony in their community; but for my local Chapter, we have found this Field of Dreams quote "build it and they will come" works great for us.

Good Luck in future OA ceremonies for you Packs and Troops!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

I get a kick out of the illustrated Morse code that Old Gray Owl posted, but I don't know if a picture of "dog did it" is appropriate for Webelos Communicator pin.

flbjr, Sorry, I've never seen illustrated Morse code like you've described. However, Boy's Life had a game to assist learning Morse code. http://boyslife.org/games/online-games/575/morse-code-machine/

Signaling is a skill that each Scout can learn, but it takes practice and time to achieve the skill and speed. Like doing school Math, English and History, no student is going to skip the entire semester then walk into finals and score perfectly.

Ive been asked a few times, if I can teach Signaling MB during Spring Camporee in a 40 minute rotation of each patrol. I keep replying that I can demonstrate Signaling MB, but no Scout is going to begin and accomplish this MB in less than 40 minutes.

I highly encourage each Scout to pursue the Signaling MB, just realize that it take a few weeks (maybe months) to achieve the skills, accuracy and timing.

Signaling can be fun and functional. For example, semaphore can save a Scout a 30 minute walk around the Swimming MB water front (lake side) to speak with their SPL. They can communicate simple Q&A, to find out what time troop swim is or what time the next troop assembly is. While Morse Code is still used by a few worldwide industries and by ham radio operators to communicate around the world.

Oh yes, and finally. For flbjr, "a" or alfa is a dot dash. Dash dot is a "n" or november.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Scoutfish,

Greetings!

In older forum post, fellow members have given their summaries, and again during this posting. Fellow members have given their experience and brief summaries.

Let me provide my definition of WB21C.

People can take leadership/followership and communication courses in Scouting and in the corporate world, even at the local college. Some Scouters by virtue of their personality can network and encourage Scout and parent participation. These are all positive traits that WB21C will provide you.

But for my definition. The bottom line is that WB21C, teaches a Scouter to plan, and then deliver on that plan. All the WB21C tools, help a Scouter to carry out plans to enhance their Pack, Troop or Crew.

For example On occasion you may run across a Scouter, with a PhD, who is a business manager, who leads a successful company, and knows how to encourage people and rally the troops. They can network clubs and organizations, they can fellowship and have fun and engage a large circle of friends. What can they benefit from attending leadership and communications classes? Not too much more. But they can learn how to apply the skills they already possess.

To myself, WB21C is a planning and execution course.

Beyond a recent graduates personal enjoyment and fellowship; ultimately, a Scouting unit or district will benefit from a leader attending WB21C. The Scouting unit is the real customer of the WB21C trained Scouter, and all the boys (and Venturing girls) benefit.

So when you attended college or a local seminar, you probably asked Whats in it for me?; but for your local WB21C course you should probably ask Whats in it for me and my troop?

Hope to congratulate you soon!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

BDPT00 and Fellow Arrowmen,

Greetings!

First my apologies to Buffalo Skipper for stealing this thread.

Yeah.. I agree, my advice or comments are opinionated. I've consolidated comments and advice from other fellow Arrowmen/Advisors, but I do believe (opinion) that a few added steps enhance a more favorable outcome.

It is disappointing as an Associate Chapter Advisor, to pull a Scoutmaster over, and see the look on his face, when only one boy (out of approximately 10 candidates) is elected; when the Scoutmaster was hoping that most of the worthy candidates were elected.

Then the next year, it plays out the same way again. Possibly a bully or funny guy is the only one out of 10 candidates that gets elected. And the Chapter Chief and Associate Chapter Advisor again have to pull the Scoutmaster aside and show him/her that only one of ten was elected. Watching even another disappointed grimace and exhale.

Also, after watching the election video, and being read the guidelines a second time, it is also disappointing to hear a few Tenderfoot Scouts comment; I thought I could only vote for one or I didnt understand the rules, knowing their educated vote could have allowed a hard working First Class or Star Scout become an Arrowman.

My Chapter now ask for printed ballots from the troop scribe, primarily for the large troops where first year Scouts dont know the older Scouts names, but they know the candidates as the guy that makes me laugh or the guys that makes me wash dishes. Ive seen it many times, in my troop and many other troops.

If elections were truly fair and unbiased, there would be no need for endorsements or printed ballots. But, again in my opinion. Some local Scoutmasters have been disappointed year after year with low results and one worthy candidate becoming an Arrowman, while nine worthy candidates may never become an Arrowman.

Regarding a restriction on how many candidates may be elected. This is from memory recall, so I have no valid proof. I believe it was about an 1998, 1999 update to the OA literature. There previously was a limitation on how many youth could be elected into the OA, by a troop. Previous literature which limited membership contained a guideline similar to this. Of those whom exceeded 50 percent of the ballot votes, only the top 50 percent of those receiving a majority vote are invited to the Ordeal. The previous idea of getting the cream of the crop, was excluding some potentially outstanding future leaders.

After a long review of that guideline, the National OA Committee determined that many worthy First Class Scouts thru Eagle Scouts just were never being recognized and becoming Arrowmen. Many of these Scouts were good and faithful Scouts. Good young men, but by the limiting percentages, they were never Arrowmen. The National OA Committee changed the policy just a little over ten years ago, to better allow those that are worthy to enter into the brotherhood.

Again. A matter of personnel opinion. But I feel that there are many worthy Scouts that camp endlessly, advance in rank, and help younger Scouts begin their trail; many of these worthy Scouts that are never recognized. While still it is a free election, the verbal endorsement serves as a reminder of what the candidates have done (besides making the younger Scouts laugh, the younger Scouts frequently forget that the older Scouts have taught them Scouting skills). While the ballots to remind all of the Scouts (mainly the youngest Scouts) the names and sometimes faces of their fellow Scouts.

As difficult a time that American citizens have with National elections, imagine the Arrowman fate of a 16 y/o Eagle Scout resting in the hands of a new 10 y/o Scouts pencil.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Arrowmen,

As my local Chapter is growing again and having more activities. Our youth Arrowman are conducting a few ceremonies each year.

One thing that I've seen, as we researched OA literature, newsletter ideas and material from other Lodges and Chapters. Occasionally there are giant OA sashes (Ordeal, Brotherhood and Vigil), behind the ceremony team and fire.

These Giant OA Sashes appear to be purchased vinyl banners probably from commercial advertisement/sports banner companies. (not like the square banner flag, sold on the National OA Trading Post page). They vary from lodges and webpages, sometimes they appear to be about 4 foot, other OA Lodge website photo galleries sometimes show banners to be about 8 foot (or taller).

My question. Does your Chapter/Lodge have giant ceremony sashes? Does any Advisor know where they were purchased from? Where my Chapter can purchase a similar "Giant OA Sashes"?

Thanks!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

P.S. A couple images I could search/find today, with giant sashes in the background.

http://www.27east.com/assets/news.Article/167593/CaptionNhbscouts1_Nhbscout.jpg

http://www.migisi.org/features/feature20060925a.jpg

Fellow Scouters,

Regarding election outcomes.

Yeah.. It is an unproven theory of how to improve election outcomes. It only appears to work. But I have no valid ways to prove it.

I've met a few Scoutmasters that winced, at the low results. When they just did an election, without accepting advice from the election team before arrival. Those leaders would only get one scout elected out of about ten eligible candidates.

The other Scoutmasters that accepted some of the recommendations usually got seven or eight (if not all) elected out of ten candidates. Those Scoutmasters were usually more please with the final election results.

So, I can't prove it, but I give this advice each year to the Roundtable meeting, before our Chapter Elections begin.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

BuffaloSkipper,

Greetings again!

Great to hear about the improvements to Camp Euchee and Spanish Trails Scout Reservations.

There was a large acreage for the camp and Spanish Trails could host many Scouts at two campsites.

I was only opposed to the sandy terrain, it seemed that camp was 25-30 miles from the gulf coast, but most of the terrain seemed to be a dirt/sandy mix. (Just part of natural environment though). The sand seemed to reflect the heat even more during the summer time. None of the Scouts would stay up during camp, because they were exhausted from all the Summer Camp classes and events. And then the tremendous heat took a lot out of them.

T2Eagle,

I am a father of two (past) Chapter Chiefs, so naturally, I drove to many elections. Here are my recommendations to improve OA voting result statistics.

Show the most recent election video (it can even be found on YouTube).

Have the Scoutmaster or Troop Scribe make printed ballots with names on them, maybe even a picture of the Scouts face, and including an option for all of the above.

Popularity contest are difficult, there is little a Scoutmaster can do to prevent an 11 year old from only voting for the Life Scout that makes him laugh. Here is what I usually recommend, Part of the eligibility is that the Scoutmaster has already approved them for election eligible. We usually asked the Scoutmaster to make one last endorsement, such as; Fellas. All of these Scouts up here have help you with advancement, helped you earn Tenderfoot, Second Class. All of these Scouts have taught you knots and help you during cooking duty. I highly endorse each of these candidates

This statement usually reminds them one last time, to not just vote for one funny candidate out of many candidates; But to think at the last minute, who also helped them advance. Sometimes that final All of these guys are deserving endorsement helps improve the results (and sometimes it has no effect).

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

OT,

Good question.

Currently, I don't think so. With just over 10 years, Venturing is one of the newest programs. Venturing does not have the population of the Cub Scout or Boy Scout programs.

Lone Scouts has grown out of a need and multiple requests, which is what drove the program to begin. So, I imagine, there would need to be a larger Venturing population and repetitive request for Lone Venturer for literature, insignia and a program to be launched.

The idea sounds good (if there are/were multiple Lone Venturer needs). The application seems difficult though, and any fulfillment may be a few years out.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Congrats Buffalo Skipper!

Do they still tell the first year campers, the legend of the "One Eyed Euchee"?

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

OT,

Greetings!

Good question!

There are a few Venturing vague areas, that you really have to read only found on one line, in small typeprint font hidden in the literature. Sometimes, it may not be readily found in the Venturing Handbook, but the word "Venturer" is on BSA forms; such as the 50 Miler Award or Historic Trails Award forms.

Or sometimes an Advisor may assume that Venturers can do, can participate or can earn; until an Advisor learns that earning the recognition is unsafe or not eligible for Venturers.

To answer your question. A few years ago, the past National Venturing Cabinet consolidated and typed an additional guidance on recognitions that Venturers can earn.

http://www.nationalventuringyouthcabinet.org/files/Recognitions.pdf

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings again!

Just to follow up on Oak Tree's recent comment and spin off into another thread.

I'd prefer to call it a discussion, rather than a debate. I am not stating a victory or defeat. I am not claiming that I am absolutely correct (as if I was on a pedestal and claim to have wrote the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook and Advancement Committee Manual all by myself), nor that I am at fault with my logic.

TwoCub and I just possess different opinions over the length of time during the ESLP. Id say it would be a discussion (and difference of opinion) on whether an apple cobbler is much better than the cherry cobbler. Im sure there are many things wed agree upon and would spend hours around the campfire shooting the bull with adventurous stories.

Again, I love the grand monumental, 1000 hour projects. I wish I saw more of them!

But I can be very lenient in my analysis of the workbook instructions and can be convinced to translate No minimum number of hours is required. and the Hours I Spent Working on the Project portion of the workbook, to be as minimum as two hours or more. I can set my threshold pretty low, and hope that most Eagle candidates will soar high above my minimum threshold; never knowing or asking what my minimum tolerance is.

So As we engage in another spun thread, lets be cautious not to debate, but keep an enlightening friendly conversations Even if opinions vary.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

CPAMom,

Greetings again!

I commented earlier about the Troop meeting plan, and they should somewhat resemble a planned event, segueing from meeting activity to the next meeting activity.

Now.. If I can comment about "Chaos". Within my troop, we use a similar term.

When newly arrive families visit our troop and annually during our "Hug-A-Webe" meeting, we refer to our meetings as "Organized Chaos". From the outside view, it may appear to be total chaos, but underlying all the fun "spinning plates" and quick rotation of meeting agenda events we have some organization to it.

A Scoutmaster buddy of mine says his troop is continuous Semper Gumby or always flexible. He says, We got a plan, but we can always change it!

From the visitors eyes, it may appear to be a circus. So we invite them to visit our troop 2-3 times, and then equally go visit other troops, and then decide on a troop they will be happy with. We believe they will find a "three ring circus" and "chaos" at each troop. But somewhere they will eventually they will see the underlying organization.

At all the troops in my local district, I expect there is a meeting plan and the Scouts are somewhat adhering to some meeting plan. Theirs (and our) meetings should vary from a lot of Organized Chaos to a little bit of Organized Chaos.

My bottom line. There should be some troop meeting plan with a troop. Maybe a great plan, maybe a poor plan, but better than no plan at all.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

SkyPilot06,

Greetings!

To answer your direct question. No, I haven't gone to Wood Badge in Gilwell Park. I've only toured Gilwell.

I've met just a couple of BSA Scouters that have attended the Gilwell course.

By third hand information, a work colleague of an Associate Advisor with my Venturing Crew. (her work colleague is a Scouting Association UK Cub Leader)

Very recently, from the Scouts Association UK Cub leader, she inquired with her Scouting Commissioner about her eligibility to attend Gilwell Wood Badge. The feeling from this Scouting Association Cub Leader, is that the Gilwell course is still an elitist club and by strict invitation only. Let me caveat, it is her opinion, and I was told this by my Associate Advisor, a work colleague of this Cub Leader. So hopefully her thoughts are not too distorted as a post this.

This specific Scouting Association Cub Leader is now considering attending BSA WB21C, which appears more open and welcoming to her. Her British Scouting Association Commissioner concurs, she may be easier enrolled in the WB21C before she receives an invite to Gilwell Wood Badge. Although the curriculum may different, the course agenda should be the same.

Good Luck with your inquiry to Gilwell Wood Badge and let us know if you attend and how it is.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

CPAMom,

Greetings!

If your family is from a rural area, making a choice between either Troop A or B, might just exceed enrolling as a Lone Scout program.

A good Boy Scout meeting should resemble similarities to the seven portions of a Troop Meeting Plan.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34425.pdf

Or using some of the examples from Troop Program features.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/boyscouts/resources/troop%20program%20features%20vol,-d-,%20i%20-%20iii.aspx

Preopening

Opening

Skill Instruction

Patrol Meeting

Interpatrol Activity

Closing

After the meeting

A troop meeting is a good location to demonstrate and promote a merit badges. But most merit badges require independent work or outdoor participation. So while a merit badge may begin inside of a troop meeting, a troop meeting time should not be consumed with nothing more than doing merit badge after merit badge.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Exibar (Mike B),

I think your CC is overstating some Scouting Urban Legends.

As a Crew Advisor, I do not email a youth directly (Venturing Activity Chair or Crew Officer), w/o emailing their parent or another adult in the CC: line.

I have also called Venturing family home phones, intending to talk to the parent and had a Venturer answer, I immediately state "Tell your parents you are on the phone with the Advisor right now, and we are talking about ____ event. Tell them now, I'll wait."

The adult Scouters within a unit should be aware of YP, and find ways to avoid a direct 1:1 adult to youth emails (personal contact).

As it is, many Scouts already have emails and cellphones. It is more about the method and conduit that the adult leadership communicates with them.

Mike B asked, Is there any truth to this? I have never seen any; and would like to know if absolute BSA guidance ever is announced.

Good Luck!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Twocubdad,

Let me attempt explain my thoughts.

It only takes four signatures to start an ESLP. The benefactor, unit leader, unit committee member and district/council advancement chair.

At the end of the ESLP it only takes three signatures to accept completion. The Life Scout, the unit leader and the benefactor. No completion signature from the unit committee, nor no completion signature from the district/council advancement chair.

Many other fellow Scouters in my district and council have quoted urban Scouting Legends. That a project must be no less than 1000 hours, I've also heard no less than 100 hours. While those requirements may be added by units, district, Council. Those rulings on how many hours spent on an ESLP are documented in any BSA literature.

I still haven't seen BSA literature that established the minimum. I am not perfect and still learn literature and guidelines in the BSA that I've never noticed before. But I haven't seen minimum hours/leadership in the ESLP. Once I learn of any, I'll gladly enforce the ESLP minimums, and make sure the candidates comply.

The ESLP Workbook ask for, how many hours were spent planning, how many hours carrying out the project and then how many hours total on the project.

With the lack of a BSA ruling on how many hours, I and a few others see that the minimum could be 2 hours. Equally, the workbook states List who besides yourself worked on the project.

Now, I can tell you, I've been to a few district camp spring cleaning days. With advanced notice emails and handouts to all the unit leadership members in the district. Still, I meet about 3,4, or 5 friends in the parking lot carrying their work gloves. Each DE may expect a few dozen for each 1000 people notified. But nope, reality says the same old usually suspects of 3,4 or 5 will show up in the parking lot.

Similarly, a Life Scout may invite a few hundred Scouts, church members, classmates, and friends to a very service worthy benefactor, but then on the project day, and 2 or 3 Scouts show up. The Life Scout can encourage, beg, or bribe fellow Scouts to attend a project, but they cannot make them attend.

So when I view the ESLP Workbook completion. Like I've stated, I love 100 hours, I'll do a flip for 1000 hours, Crew21_Adv will dance for a 5000 hours. But if the Life Scout/Eagle candidate can only convince two Scouts to attend and they only work for two hours. Then the Life Scout changes the scope of his ESLP "List any changes made to the original project plan and explain why those changes were made." and obtain the benefactors endorsement to accept a toned down project.

My next question is, how many did you lead?

Then, did you communication a plan to them?

How many hours did you all serve?

I may not get the numbers of leadership, nor receive the hours I like to hear. But I still see it that the Life Scout satisfied the project requirements. They may be the lowest end of the scale when compared with other Eagles, they may flounder in the nest rather than soaring with fellow Eagles.

I just don't feel that it is up to me, Crew21 Adv, to state that a Life Scout did not meet the requirements of the ESLP; when I have never found BSA literature stating what the minimum requirements are, nor what is the lowest end of a measurable scale.

I do love lasting projects, big numbers and leadership of scores of Scouts, just like the next Scoutmaster. But as a friend told me years ago, "if we set the threshold low enough, maybe they'll just trip over it.". So my Crew21_Adv's low-end threshold for accepting the completion of an ESLP is very generous and forgiving. My chest won't swell with pride, I won't be dancing down the streets, but I'll accept a Life Scouts absolute best effort. Even if his best effort appears to fall short of initial goals.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Frank and Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

If I may comment on discussing a project between a Life Scout and an Advancement Committee, then my thoughts on the scope of ESLPs.

On many occasions, our unit committee discuss scope, safety, schedules, and etc with a Life Scout. We attempt not to expand the scope beyond their idea (what ever it may be, monumental or very minimal). But we attempt to keep the topics to safety, leadership and communications. Quiet often, I am the adult stating, "Write that down!" to the Life Scout.

Now for the irony and humorous part. Often after that initial interview, the life Scout returns with one modification (from all the scribbled notes, and usually its not the safety measures). Our Committee is not attempting to be mean or cruel, we don't attempt to change the Life Scout's idea and agenda, but we do want to see the minimum in leadership, communications, and safety though. Many time the first draft project arrives with just a scope and no more.

Now for my thoughts on the scope of the ESLP.

I sometimes provide a Roundtable topic on Eagle Scout Projects, and make a good attempt to state BSA policy, and then Crew21'ism thoughts, concerns and beliefs. "The manual says this...." and "Here are my own thoughts..."

Also, my troop will occasionally receive a young adult (early 20's/Eagle Scout/ASM) and sometimes a young business man (mid-late 20's/Eagle Scout/ASM). Their commitment and attendance may very, so we usually ask them to serve as Eagle Scout advisor and aggressively inquire with all our Life Scouts, "How you doing?", "What MB are you working on now?", "What's your next plan?", and etc.

My concerns, a few Life Scouts will be extremely high functioning and very proactive. They are all good Scouts, but may drag their feet during the Life to Eagle process. I've told the Advisors that they need to be proactive and not reactive to encourage the Life Scouts.

Equally. I tell Scouting friends that my threshold for Eagle Scout projects is very low. I like to see written plans(maintaining a rotating schedule of Scouts/employees), I like to see safety, I like to communications and leadership. Just as long as they barely communication their plans and safety briefing to two or more Scouts which work for two hours or more, they've met my minimum.

I express to my friends, that the potential Eagle Scout(s) will always know the scope of their project. When that Scout is 30, 40, 50 years old, they will always be able to look back and recognize what they have done to earn Eagle.

As an Eagle, they will determine if they Soar with many of their Fellow Eagles or if they stumble around the nest with just a handful of Eagles?

So, remembering the Life Scouts I've spoken with, I really enjoy the 1000 hour project, with days of planning and 100 Scout participating in rotating shifts. But I'm am equally happy with 2 hours, 2 (or more) participants to lead, and a first aid kit sitting within running distance. The Scout will always remember what they have done to earn Eagle.

I wish I could state it is my own "Crew21 Adv" view, and that I wish everyone would adopt my view. But I'm not that original, and its not my own idea. You can say I'm satisfied with minimalist, but I am really knocked out by monumental ESLP.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

ripulan,

There will probably be many replies to this topic.

In this Scouter Forum, there have been similar discussions about Life Scouts who have been violent, fought, committed arson, committed petty theft and/or used illegal narcotics. Most of those forum discussions, the dialogue stated the youth had court dates, but were not detained in a state facility.

Within previous forum topics. It was usually a fact; the Life Scout in question committed a local or state crime.

I usually ask, can a Life Scout be reformed? and, can the Life Scout be forgiven for their crime(s)? Can a District/Council Advancement Chair and Eagle Scout Committee impartially measure the redemption and value of an Eagle Scout candidate?

Possibly so. Possibly not. It is a fork in the road right now.

First the Life Scout has to serve his judicial sentencing; and ideally learn a new set of values along the way. Then it depends on an impartial advancement committee.

If you look at some older editions of Scouting magazine. You will find just a few articles of Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters working with Troops inside of Youth Detention facilities, specifically serving troubled youth thru the Scouting program. However, the volunteer adult leaders, as well as the district and council committees specifically know about these troops.

I have spoke and chatted with friends around the campfire, and I hold Eagle Scouts and Venturing Silver in high esteem. But I have commented that Eagle Scout is a paramount benchmark, but not the end of the journey. I remind friends that there may be just a handful of Eagle Scouts serving time in jail during the adult life. And there may be some business executives and respected community leaders that were delinquents and youth offenders during their teen years. But those forks in the road and those decisions are up to the individual and their own moral compass.

ripulan asked, Is awarding this boy to the rank of Eagle scout appropriate?

Well, its been done before. And that is up to the Scoutmaster, Troop Committee to submit the Rank Application, up to the Council/District Advancement Committee to determined if the Life Scout is worthy of the title of Eagle Scout, and finally up to the Council Executive to favorably endorse those decisions.

ripulan also asked, How does the scout fulfill requirements 1 and 2?

Fulfilling requirement 1 of active participation, I believe in previous forum topics, the main theme seems to believe the Scoutmaster typically determines the definition of active participation.

For fulfilling requirement 2 demonstrating the principles of Scouting, I believe that is up to the Life Scout to demonstrate and up to the Scoutmaster to determine when he/she is satisfied by the demonstration.

Hopefully, the Life Scout will make better moral decisions; and hopefully the unit, district and council committees will make good moral decisions on this topic.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Jmedina,

You've already received some excellent advice.

The G2SS rules have two types of print. Bolded (which are must follow) and regular type (which are guidelines and recommendations). But like our fellow Forum members have said, a Pack, Troop, or tour leader may impose more restrictive (and safer) guidelines.

If I can comment about your questions.

jmedina asked, So my question is the leader in the wrong???

No. Sometimes they are not yet knowledgeable about the G2SS. So, sometimes you may inquire if the strict guidance is a BSA, Council or unit rule.

Similar to the long bladed sheath knife issue. It is not recommended by national, but councils and units may strictly say absolutely no sheath knives.

jmedina asked, Are there rules that are out there that pertain to all packs or can she make her own rules?

Maybe it is the Den Leaders interpretation of something they have heard "A Scouting Urban Legend" (which they truly believe to be an absolute gospel BSA rule). Or maybe the Den Leader is very knowledgeable about BSA, Council and Unit guidance, and does not desire to take the risk as a tour leader.

Fellow forum members have already explained about the G2SS; and that a registered adult leader, specifically the tour leader on permit may impose even safer rules.

jmedina asked, Is there someway I can "turn her in"?

Only if the Den Leader violates YPT. The Den Leader's tactfulness (or lack of) may lead to them being replaced with a kinder, gentler Den Leader. But all you can do, is to make sure the Den Leader is aware of what the BSA guidance actually says.

Regarding the other parents, that brought more than one child. It happens. A tour leader may provide guidance, then you will have parents or scouts that take it upon themselves to violate the guidance.

A scenario may play out like this; 60 miles from the hometown, in the dark, in the snow, on ice, a parent brings two boys (Webelos and a Tiger), along with the infant daughter. Oh yes, this parent is also the "grubmaster" for the event, bringing the hotdogs and hot chocolate for the Den.

Does the tour leader tell the parent which brought two boys and his infant daughter. "You have to leave the food and take two of your children home immediately."

Odd circumstances. But I've been stuck between a rock and a hard place like that before.

jmedina said, "seems like a good leader would have done whatever was possible to get my child there"

Finally, you may be cautious about implying what a "good leader" would do, in comparison with your son's current den leader. After a discussion with your Cubmaster and Pack Committee, you may learn that the Webelos Den Leader is a fine example of a "good leader".

As parents, we all have some disappointments with Scouting or with a Pack/Troop from time to time. But be cautious about direct or indirect slander against the other parents that give their time for all the Scouts.

Good Luck and hopefully the Webelos Den Leader may relax some of the very strict tour guidance.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Stosh,

I haven't seen your council's video, but I have seen one similar. The video that I've seen, the council created video DVD which was designed from the origin to be an advertisement to Scouters. (parts of the video were modeled after the BSA WB21C promotional video (1999)). But this council created DVD mixed fun, with a little classroom, with WB testimonials (of local Scouters).

From your description Stosh, it appears your local council WB video demonstrates alot of fun.

I guess you can say I'm straddling the fence, on this topic.

I'd concur, the fun and laughter may get some Scouters to think about Wood Badge; but will it sell it? Will an adult Scouter pay 200-400 dollars and take a week of vacation, just for fun?

For myself... I'd consider the social networking and fun, it would get me to think about taking a week of vacation... But then I'd consider my checkbook, and ask "what else is in it for me"?

I've pitched WB21C at Roundtable, Scout Expos, and other Scouting events. In less than sixty seconds; I mention Ken Blanchard, Steven Covey, scouting games, and Disney movies with positive messages on leadership (who doesn't like a Disney movie and they always have happy endings). Out of 50-60 adults I'll pitch WB21C to, maybe I'll persuade one to truly consider the investment.

Your council's video was created for the Scouter (not for the non-Scouter), so your guest was not the actual intended audience. But maybe your guest can offer you and your council a little insight.

Without seeing or knowing all the details of your council's video, I'd offer this comment. Maybe your council can go back to the dark room/editing room, and add in some video of the class sessions, maybe comments about the equivalent of 1000 dollars single day seminar management sessions in NYC or LA, and some personal testimonials. Specifically how Wood Badge has directly aided their Pack, Troop or Crew programs. Maybe that will push an interested Scouter over the edge, towards committing to attend the next WB course.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Phibbles,

Greetings!

If I may offer my advice to your "friend".

Some Scouters will continue to do things their own way. From signing off advancement, to unauthorized swim calls, to riding in the back of trucks with no seatbelts, etc etc. They are happy violating many BSA rules and Guide to Safe Scouting, as long as they strictly abide by Youth Protection.

A fellow Scouter can tell a few Scouters the correct procedures; some will correct their behavior, some will blacklist their fellow Scouter offering the advice.

Here is what I think you should do to "Speak Up". Your "friend" should take a copy of the Unit Money Earning Application to the next committee meeting. As the topic of 50/50 or raffle comes up. Ask "Did we file a Unit Money Earning Application". The answer should be a yes or no. If its a Yes; The council has just assumed responsibility for a game of chance. If the answer is a No; Then flip the application over to the notice the rules as though your friend just recently learned them "Selling raffle tickets or other games of chance is a direct violation of the BSA Rules and Regulations,

which forbid gambling. The product must not detract from the ideals and principles of the BSA.".

All your friend can really do, is to offer advice to the committee. Either the committee will abide by BSA guidance or continue to violate the BSA guidance.

Good Luck!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Axeman,

Greetings and congratulations!

Regarding the envelope. I wouldn't take it personal, at all. I'd consider it the same as delivering (or picking up) an Eagle Scout Rank recognition package (patch, medal, pins, card, etc).

Obviously an Eagle Recognition Kit is handed between the council registrar, to maybe a DE, to a unit Advancement, maybe to an ASM, then to the Scoutmaster just before the Eagle Scout Ceremony.

Some WB graduates desire to receive their beads right in front of the district committee or district roundtable, some desire to receive it at a huge council event, and some desire to receive their beads right in front of their own son and Scouts in the Pack or Troop.

Even, in my location, we recently had three leaders in my local troop that wanted to be beaded on the 100th Anniversary of Boy Scouting, during the troop meeting. Because of my geographic location, quiet a few advancement items are handed off in envelopes. The WB'ers in the unit had confirmed the recepients had their own 9x12 envelopes. I even had to break the glass in my own Scouting locker and bring one of my hot spare WB regalia, for our Scoutmaster whose regalia hadn't arrived yet.

So, Like Twocubdad said, and I'll echo.... That was not your beading ceremony. (It was just deliverying the regalia kit to your physical possession). It is for you to determine when and where you want the beading ceremony. Next Commissioners meeting, next R/T, next Pack meeting or Troop COH, or other appropriate venue.

Congrats again!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv