acco40

Beavah, first of all I don't yap and second of all I don't treat the adults as children. Third, I'm very aware of the methods we should use to to achieve the aims of the program. What many don't understand is that as adult leaders who signed up to deliver the program we should not feel the eight methods are a smorgasbord we can pick and choose from. Let's see, I think I'll use use the uniform, outdoors, personal growth, adult association and leadership development. I don't want to use advancement because that places to much undo stress on the boys nor do I want to use patrols because it is so much easier to do everything as a troop. See how ridiculous that sounds? To me, saying one is not going to use the uniform as a method is just as ridiculous. Also, why do you interpret having the expectation that the boys wear their field and activity uniform during the proper circumstances as okay but having the same expectation for adults as "yapping" or "treating them like children." If that kind of attitude is pervasive in a troop, no wonder the boys would view wearing the uniform as childish. I'm always dismayed by those who feel they can pick and choose which parts of the program they wish to implement. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a uniform Nazi nor a member of the uniform police. As we were getting ready to depart from summer camp last week I reminded the boys of our expectation that we depart from outings as a troop in our field uniforms and not to use the excuse that "I already packed it." Well, as most teenage boys will do, one 13 year old asked me how come Mr. So-and-so (a MC)doesn't have to wear his uniform? All I could respond with was that I asked the MC and my expectation was that he too would wear his uniform.

Pack committees and Troop Committees serve different functions. There is a Troop Committee position patch. It is to be worn on the uniform. When working with the boys (at a troop meeting, during all boards of review, etc.) I feel the uniform should be worn. Why would we request from the boys that which we are unwilling to do ourselves? Beavah - if a boy in your troop showed up for a BOR in gym shorts and a Harley-Davidson t-shirt would you just be happy that the scout is just giving his time and be happy at that?

Getting the boys to wear the uniform - I can handle that. Now, pray tell, as Scoutmaster, how do I get the Troop Committee to wear the uniform? At summer camp, I had a Scout, fourth year of camp, Star Scout, refuse to wear his uniform upon departure because none of the adults committee members do. Well, the Committee Chair usually does but during most BORs I say that there is only a 50% chance that at least one adults on the board is wearing their uniform. Sad.

My comments on how our troop handles the following and why: Adults select or limit the pool of candidates for troop or patrol positions (including things like rotating New Scout Patrol Leader). Yes, we do this. We limit candidates to boys registered in the troop. We also follow the BSA guidelines for positions that need Scoutmaster approval (Den Chief, Instructor, Troop Guide, etc.). As for NSP PLs, I let the boys pick the PL who holds the position for 30 days. Adults require uniforming for various events. How does one "require" uniforms? Our expectation is that while participating in a Scouting function, one wears the appropriate Scouting uniform (field or activity). Adults offer MB or T-2-1 classes for advancement. At the request of the youth, adults offer advancement opportunities. We rarely do this at troop meetings but primarily at patrol meetings and during outings. Now, the youth do the same (i.e. we don't have adults teach exclusively). Adults determine the gear patrols can purchase or take on campouts. Well, we do haul the trailer so I guess you can say we determine the gear patrols take on outings! Our primary function is to make sure, through mentoring and working with the troop and patrol quartermasters that the boys have the appropriate gear. As adults we also restrict gear in accordance with G2SS and certain camps (i.e. fireworks, certain electronics, etc.). Adults set expectations for or limitations on outings (1 per month, none in summer, must do summer camp yearly, etc.). As Scoutmaster, I work with the PLC during the annual planning conference. I don't mandate but the expectation is we camp at least once a month (December excluded). Adults require weekly collection of dues. Adults set dues amounts. Adults determine participation rules/fund distribution for fundraisers. Adults determine fundraisers. Adults work fundraisers. Adults have determined dues amounts ($25 per quarter) and have set the expectation that each boy contribute $40 per year to the troop. They may do this either via the annual popcorn fundraiser or simply opening their wallets. The boys have initiated fundraising on their own (distributing fliers, bottle drives, etc.) and they determine where the money goes (Scout accounts, to the troop, earmarked for a certain item such as tents, etc.). The adults "work" fundraiser primarily by acting as chauffers. Adults sign off on T-2-1 advancement. Yes, we do this. Adults sit on Boards of Review. Yes, we do this. Don't forget, one of the purposes of a BOR is to evalute the Scoutmaster corps via the responses of the Scouts under review. I do not believe this should be a youth function. Adults plan parts (or all) of outings. We plan parts. The Scoutmasters usually make the reservations, downpayments, etc. The youth participate in the annual planning and present to the committee and delegate to the adults what they want done. Adults plan parts (or all) of meetings. Adults plan meeting parts when assigned by the youth. For example, the SPL may ask an adult to teach a class, demonstrate a skill or even to plan a complete meeting. Adults determine safety plans/respond to first aid needs/ etc. Not sure what this means. When emergencies occur we all use our best judgment. Recently (last week) at summer camp we had a Scout injure his leg outside or the camp site. The SPL was nearby and carried the Scout to camp (soft tissue injury, no bleeding). An adult (me) made the medical determination for treatment (and I also turned it into a teaching experience).

There are also specific weight limitations for those wishing to ride a horse. As I prepare to "make weight" (3 pounds to go with three weeks left) for a Double H trek I lament that this Mizzou grad will be checked out by Jayhawks. Maybe my Michigan address will fool those feeble minded folks and I can sneak past the gatekeepers!

Honor Camping Society or Honor Society? How about Sevice Organization! Elections should be held at troop meetings. Call-outs at summer camp (participation in call-outs are not necessary to become an ordeal member.) Okay, "tap-out" fell by the wayside due to the the interpretaion of "abuse" by some. Now this year, the three taps to the shoulder and the "escort" to Allowat Sakima (sp?) has also been banned. I have just one request about the old OA ceremonies - Let it remain!

The Scoutmaster, Committee, nor the SPL should be deciding what patrols the boys belong to. The boys should make that decision. This past spring I had a boy join our troop - but he was not fresh from Cub Scouts having earned his AOL a the previous year. He wanted to join a "regular" (as opposed to Venture Patrol or New Scout Patrol). I discussed with him the pros and cons of him joining a New Scout Patrol (he would be more in line advancement wise but a year older than his patrol mates) vs. a regular patrol (he would be approximately a year younger than most of the boys and at least two ranks behind most of them). He chose the "regular" patrol and after asking the boys in that patrol they agreed to let him join. Well, now (three months later) just before summer camp he said he wanted to switch patrols to one our NSPs. I asked the NSP in question if they were okay with it, they were and the switch was made (numbers helped too - he went from a patrol of 9 to a patrol of 6). As the Scoutmaster, I thought I was within my authority to do the above. A patrol should be a group of peers. That does not mean same age or rank definitively. Patrols should not become cliquish (sp?). When we need to reformulate our patrol make-up for whatever reasons, here is the approach that I take. I discuss it with the SAs at our monthly Scoutmaster meeting. I then arrange the patrols the way I see would work out best. I then float this to the boys at a troop meeting giving them the freedom to make changes with the stipulation that "trades" have to be agreed upon by all and also one for one (no mega-patrols of 15 nor mini-patrols of 3). I've found that parents seem more concerned with patrol make-up than the boys are. They need to be able to get along with all of the Scouts. By the way, I try not to reshuffle the patrols unless absolutely necessary.

I found that as the boys mature they become better leaders. Therefore, I say phooey on the BSA rule about "aging" out and have a few 18 and 19 year old patrol leaders. They do a much better job than the 14 and 15 year olds. Also, why take a chance on letting the boys elect these fine leaders? They just might, heaven forbid, want to elect one of their peers who has not yet mastered everything he needs to have to become one dynamite patrol leader. Besides, an 18 year old patrol leaders interacts much better with our 22 year old SPL. :-)

As others have implied, there are training patches (i.e. I have one from Philmont Training Center) and there is a "TRAINED" patch that should be part of a set - trained for the position patch immediately above it. The TRAINED patch does not have an expiration date except for the fact that if one's position changes, the trained patch should only remain on the uniform it one is trained for the new position. The other patches, for example if there was a trained patch for CPR/AED (I don't know of any) probably should not be worn if one is not "current" with that training.(This message has been edited by acco40)

A UC has to walk a fine line. He doen't want to intrude, take over but yet doesn't want to become invisible. As a unit commissioner I make sure I'm available yet I usually only go to one or two unit meetings a year (never unannounced to the unit leader). It is a job that is not really needed for well run units and so sometimes the UC presence alone makes some units feel uncomfortable. The first thing a UC should communicate is what his role with the unit is. I try to be a friend to the unit and help out when asked. I rarely make suggestions when not asked. Please remember, a UC is just like the rest of the volunteers - just trying to make the program work for the boys.

What do you feel is the primary responsibility of the Scoutmaster? As one of the leaders of the Troop, you would be responsible for the appearance of the Scouts with regard to cleanliness and proper uniforming. What is your personal experience with your own uniform? How have you done in the past year in wearing the full uniform to your troop meetings? Do you think proper uniforming is important? Why? You've held leadership positions in other troops. How have you participated in your Patrol Leaders Council meetings? Did you conduct or participate in the annual or semiannual planning meetings? If so, what was your role and how did you participate? As a unit leader, what was your most difficult experience? Why was it difficult and what did you do to make it better? Have you had an experience when your own team did not want to follow your leadership? This could have been any member of the PLC when you were a Scoutmaster or the committee. What was the experience and what did you do about it? Can you give us an example of a time when you demonstrated leadership in a scouting activity? What was it and why do you think it showed leadership? One of our first troop tasks is to divide into patrols. How would you suggest we decide who is in what patrol? Why do you think that's a good way to do it? As adult leaders, we've been asked about taking electronic devices on the outings. What do you think we should decide about small CD players, cassette players, ipod/mp3 players or gameboy type devices? What would your former troop say about you, your attendance at troop meetings and campouts, and your living of the scout oath and law - that would make us want to select you for a leadership position? If you were not selected for the Scoutmaster position, would you accept the position of Assistant Scoutmaster if we offered it to you? Two scouts start pusing and shoving each other and become more and more agitated. This happens on a troop outing right after dinner has been eaten. You are standing two feet from these Scouts. What is your immediate response? What is your long term response (next few hours). If in implementing the Scouting program the way you see fit you encounter resistance from existing Assistant Scoutmasters because your way "is not way we've always done it" what is your response? Do you have any questions for us before we end the interview session?

The first step is to be able to recognize the problems. I'd recommend tweetylee!

scoutldr - you are correct except for one item, the eagle candidate may request (not pick) that certain individuals sit on his EBOR but the composition of the EBOR is determined by the board chair (usually the troop advancement chair) and not the Scout.

Cub Scout den leaders have different uniforms than Scoutmasters (SMs), Assistant Scoutmasters (SAs), or Boy Scout Committee members (MCs). Proper uniforming states that adult leaders do not wear patrol patches (neither does the SPL or ASPL(s) for that matter) the reason being is that they are not in a patrol. Now, we do use the patrol method for adults, as a teaching tool, in our troop. At summer camp, the council offers an unofficial "Scoutmaster merit badge" which can be earned by adults at summer camp. It is a patrol patch with a rocking chair. We use this as a patrol patch. Now, I own multiple uniform shirts and I wear the ones with a patrol patch on some of the outings. For COHs and other more "official" events, I always follow (to the best of my knowledge) proper uniform techniques. Somewhat hypocritical yes but just like allowing my oldest son, the current SPL to wear Scouts Canada shoulder loops (Beavers on a light blue background) on his uniform you've got to pick your battles. [He asked to wear them once and got such a positive response from WB Beavers that he wears them as much as he can now.)

What is done and what is correct are often two separate issues. Just because some troops "do it" does not make it correct. In fact, as Scoutmaster and not a committee member, the only Board of Review I may actively participate in is an Eagle Board of Review! For all other Boards of Review (Tenderfoot - Life) one must be a Troop Committee member. Now, before all jump to their keyboards to correct this apparent mistake let me expand on my response. As a Scoutmaster for Troop ABC I should not sit on the Board of Review for any Scout, nor observe these BORs. Only at an Eagle Board of Review may I be allowed to attend to observe and respond if questioned if the EBOR is for a Scout in my troop. However, one does not need to be a registered committee member or even a registered Scouter to sit on an EBOR so I could sit on an EBOR for any Scout not in my troop. One of the purposes of a BOR is for the committee members to evaluate not only the Scout but the program being administered by the Scoutmaster and his assistants. To perform this function, it is best to have the Scoutmaster and his assistants not be present (EBORs are the exception). For the other BORs, it is best (IMHO) to have the SPL introduce the Scout to the BOR and then exit.(This message has been edited by acco40)

The daylight "rule" or "suggestion" is primarily an attempt to combat fatigue, not improve visibility. Therefore, the "should" and "except for short trips" caviats. I've seen a few major accidents (rollovers) because of fatigue (Scouter just had to leave summer camp at the crack of dawn to get home early and ended up rolling his SUV after he fell asleep at the wheel about 10 miles from home around 8:30 AM.) See below for an excerpt from G2SS. General guidelines are as follows: 1. Seat belts are required for all occupants. 2. All drivers must have a valid driver's license that has not been suspended or revoked for any reason. If the vehicle to be used is designed to carry more than 15 persons, including the driver (more than 10 persons, including the driver, in California), the driver must have a commercial driver's license (CDL). 3. An adult leader (at least 21 years of age) must be in charge and accompany the group. 4. The driver must be currently licensed and at least 18 years of age. Youth member exception: When traveling to and from an area, regional, or national Boy Scout activity or any Venturing event under the leadership of an adult (at least 21 years of age) tour leader, a youth member at least 16 years of age may be a driver, subject to the following conditions: a. Six months' driving experience as a licensed driver (time on a learner's permit or equivalent is not to be counted) b. No record of accidents or moving violations c. Parental permission granted to the leader, driver, and riders 5. Passenger cars or station wagons may be used for transporting passengers, but passengers should not ride on the rear deck of station wagons. 6. Trucks may not be used for transporting passengers except in the cab. 7. All driving, except short trips, should be done in daylight. 8. All vehicles must be covered by automobile liability insurance with limits that meet or exceed requirements of the state in which the vehicle is licensed. It is recommended that coverage limits are at least $50,000/$100,000/$50,000. Any vehicle designed to carry 10 or more passengers is required to have limits of $100,000/$500,000/$100,000. 9. Do not exceed the speed limit. 10. Do not travel in convoy (see "Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings," No. 2). 11. Driving time is limited to a maximum of 10 hours and must be interrupted by frequent rest, food, and recreation stops. If there is only one driver, the driving time should be reduced and stops should be made more frequently. Don't drive drowsy. Stop for rest and stretch breaks as needed. Fatigue is a major cause of highway accident fatalities.

I thought some may find the following article (May 1988) amusing: CAN WOMEN TEACH BOYS to become men? Since their founding in 1910 the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) has answered with a thunderous "no." But recent challenges have exposed the shaky psychological and legal foundations of that position, and in a surprising reversal of official policy, the Scouts decided recently to allow women to lead Boy Scout troops. The decision by the National Executive Board removed gender restrictions on all volunteer positions of leadership within the BSA. "It is time to recognize that in a changing society the unique strength of our organization lies in the dedicated efforts of both men and women," the group stated. Civil suits brought against the Boy Scouts by two women, Catherine Pollard of Milford, Connecticut, and Phyllis Gibson of Santa Barbara, California, may have been at least partially responsible for the BSA's new position. Pollard, a feisty 69-year-old grandmother, asked in 1974 to be formally recognized as the scoutmaster of a troop she had run successfully, but unofficially, for four years. Her request was denied in 1974, and without a male adult willing to take her place, the troop eventually disbanded. Pollard sued. "Even the Boy Scouts admitted that I'm capable of running the troop," Pollard says. An avid nature lover and a dedicated music teacher, she directs the school band (9 out of 10 members are boys), is an official Scout bugle instructor and has been the bugler for a local volunteer fire department for the past 45 years. "When I was a member of the troop committee of the local Boy Scouts," she says, "I was even chosen to train the male Scout leader. But I couldn't be the scoutmaster myself." Last summer Pollard lost her battle in court. But Gibson's fight continued. An administrative assistant at the University of California, Santa Barbara, Gibson had attempted to assume partial responsibility for her sons' week at a Boy Scout camp. Since her divorce in 1978 Gibson and her teenage sons had gone camping together regularly and for five years she had served as a temporary adult supervisor at a Boy Scout camp in California. Since many of the boys from Troop 129 came from single-parent households, the potential shortage of adult supervision for the week-long camping trip inspired several parents to devise a rotation among three fathers and three mothers. Each parent, including Gibson, agreed to take one day and one night at the camp. Preparations for the camping trip were halted, however, when Gibson received a letter from the county Boy Scout Council, which reminded the adults: "as you plan your camp leadership schedules, bear in mind the national BSA policy that adult troop leadership is a men-only situation... a scoutmaster in camp must be male and over 21 years of age." Frustrated and angry, Gibson sought legal help from Gloria Allred, one of California's leading feminist attorneys, and filed a suit against the Boy Scouts of America this past October, alleging that the men-only policy was a violation of the state's civil-rights law. Not only was Gibson being denied equal opportunity because of her sex, Allred claimed, but the boys themselves were being deprived of the camping experience because there weren't enough men to supervise them. The lawsuit demanded that Gibson and other women be judged on their merit, rather than their gender. Gibson won an initial hearing in December, after which the Scouts offered to settle the case out of court. Then in February the BSA announced its new position. Despite the BSA's change in policy, it didn't directly address the issue of whether women can lead boys as well as men can. The decision seems to reflect practical, rather than psychological, considerations. In its statement the BSA cites the cost of litigation "both in terms of money and in the perception of what we are" as a major reason for changing official Scout policy. The Scouts may have decided it was better to make the change themselves, rather than to be forced into it. As Barclay Bollas, national news editor of the BSA, admitted, "We are not about to be told what to do by the courts." So it is unclear whether the Scouts' new policy has been accompanied by a true change in attitude. Until now the Boy Scouts of America has argued that "developing boys...need a close association with adult males who can provide models of manhood." The Scouts maintained, as public relations director Frank E. Hebb noted in March 1987, that "it is helpful for a boy going through the difficult process of maturing to adulthood to have a close relationship with an adult male outside the home." In 1981 retired Chief Scout Executive J.L. Tarr said in a statement challenging sexism charges that the "importance of male scoutmasters may be greater today than it ever was," since the growing number of single-parent homes means that unprecedented numbers of mothers "have had to face the task of raising their boys to manhood alone." Many of these mothers are grateful that the Boy Scouts can provide male role models, Tarr said. In addition, he noted, a boy has "ample opportunity in our society to be exposed to adult females in his school, church and elsewhere." (This message has been edited by acco40)

I think many of you are confusing the original question, "What is the concensus on a single leader with an out-of-wedlock child?" It looks like there is no concensus. The BSA requires that a Scoutmaster be at least 21 years of age, fill out an application (which has the religious declaration of principle), "pass" a background check, and the key - obtain approval by the chartering organization. The Scoutmaster is appointed by the head of the CO, not elected. Now, as for individual troop members, they can "vote" with their feet. If they feel an individual is inappropriate as a Scouter they may change troops, but should not try and remove that individual. That is not the function of the members of the troop. One could utilize the Unit Commissioner to see if the person in question would be willing to step down but I would not try any form of coup d'etat. A similar debate occurred when the BSA allowed females to become Scoutmasters in the 70s (?). How could it be possible for females to be proper role models for boys many pondered. I'm a pragmatist. Is this Scoutmaster in question the best available for the job? Maybe, maybe not. I'm a typical Scoutmaster - married, kids in the troop, overweight (hey I'm working on it!), with many other committments pulling at me simultaneously (work, daughter, troop, church, council, district, etc.). Am I a perfect role model? Of course not, but I realize that I am being "watched" by the boys. Heck, some say a 22 year old female would be distracting but maybe the boys would pay more attention to a young (in my view) female than to a middle aged man old enough to be their father!

For years, central shower area divided into two - adult and youth. Kids today shower in their swim suits. As of last year, a brick shower house with six individual shower stalls. I like them because now, I can use the older facilities in peace!

Yes, the Scout should develop what they want in their COH but if the Scout wants troop involvement, the troop has the perogative to say how they are involved. It should be a cooperative event. The Eagle COH should 1) honor the Eagle candidate, 2) inspire the Scouts in attendance (including challenging the Eagle candidate to continue in his development, 3) honor those who assisted in his achievement (parents, Scouters, MB counselors, fellow Scouts, etc. 4) inform general public on the purpose of Scouting.

Men's pants are a minimum of 30 inch inseam (too long for me). Youth pants come with shorter inseams. Does anyone know the difference between the womens switchbacks and mens switchbacks other than the womens come in shorter inseams? Also, the switchbacks I bought had some quality problems (black loop came broken, etc.) They were a gift so not pre-check for me. I did hem them at the ankle folding cuff to the inside so the zipper would still function.

This is a related problem. We do have deadlines. But what do you do if a Scout who has not registered shows up at the church parking lot on time, money in hand, permission slip in hand and has stated that he told the patrol grubmaster he was going to go (food was purchased for him). Do you let him attend the event?

The Eagle COH is the Scouts responsibility; just like you stated. After he his EBOR, tell him to give you a call and let you know when the date for his EBOR is determined. If he chooses not to have one, he can stop by during any troop meeting and pick it up. That simple. P.S. Typical non-go getter Scout should not be earning his Eagle rank.

Why do so many resist following the BSA program? Nobody said the patrol method was the most efficient or "best" way to plan, prepare, eat and clean-up for meals. However, it is the program. Look at the following requirement: Tenderfoot On the campout, assist in preparing and cooking one of your patrol's meals. Tell why it is important for each patrol member to share in meal preparation and cleanup, and explain the importance of eating together. Maybe we should make those leaders who like the "troop method" to go complete the above basic requirement. Have you ever looked at how troops are instructed to prepare meals for the National Jamboree? Even though meals are identical, the eating method so to speak is to prepare and eat by patrols, not by troop. I'll admit, on some of our outings the exception is troop preparation. This occurs for those special events when time is of the essence.

What is a color guard? I was taught that the color guard does NOT carry the colors (flag). The flag bearer(s) carries the colors and the individuals to his left and right, who are not carrying colors (flags) are the color guard. I think common misuse has led to the use of the term color guard to mean all of those (color guards and flag bearers) involved in the ceremonial flag "team." Thoughts?