acco40

The Pontiac Silverdome is available.

The BSA and WOSM want to make the National Jamboree and World Jamboree alternate every two years - thus the 2013 (and not four year later in 2014) for the National Jamboree. I didn't like moving the date from 2009 to 2010 (excluded many Scouts for a second Jambo including my two sons!) The 100 year anniversary be damned. I'd rather see Jambo rotated like they did in the past. If not, why not pick a central location - Missouri Ozarks, Big Sky country, etc. and not the east or west coasts. * Have spectacular natural beauty (Fort AP Hill had natural beauty?) * Have water for recreational activities (Fort AP Hill had swimming pools brought in!) * Be at least 5,000 acres and available for donation, long-term lease (100-plus years), or sale * Be within 25 miles of an interstate or a four-lane divided highway * Be within 150 miles of a commercial service airport with medium or large hub status * Be in an area with adequate medical services * Be accessible year-round via standard modes of transportation

FYI, Life (hence the name) was once the highest rank one could achieve in Scouts. Yes, advancement is only one of the eight methods and the methods are all "equal." Think of it in this fashion, what are the aims of Scouting? Can they be achieved without reaching Eagle?

A boy does not have to complete two years to become an OA member. My oldest son achieved 1st Class in his first year and was nominated as a candidate (i.e. elected) in February right after he finished his first year. He turned 11 and one month later went through his Ordeal. So by the time he had 19 months under his belt, he was an Ordeal member.

Many troops put on their own type of "First Class / First Year" troop program for new Scouts so they'll get what they need from the troop. Also, yes, sadly, many pathfinder programs are not up to par. If the Scouts mother gave you the Scouts choices - follow them, don't make them defensive. You gave them info on the pathfinder program. You've done your part. Why go against the wishes of the mother and Scoutmaster? I'd also recommend that the new Scout attend a few of your troop meetings before summer camp to become familiar with the boys. Also, if it's anything like the summer camp's I've attended, nothing is set in stone anyway.

Many have already stated it but let me be a little more blunt - THIS IS NOT A PACK COMMITTEE MATTER!! The CO selects unit leaders. If as you state, the "Pack Leadership" (Pack Committee?) were informed of this information, you should pass along what information you have to your Charter Organization through your Charter Organization Representative or Institutional Head in the COR is not available. Personally, I would recommend to the COR that nothing change wrt to the Scout or spouse but merely by his absense, a new Pack Leader is needed. Now, I think it matters if this Pack Leader is a Den Leader vs. the committee FOS representative for what action I would recommend to the COR.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Eamonn, I admire your demeanor. I have issues with adults who are not trained and tell me in so many words what I'm doing is wrong because ... Why don't you let the adults load the trailer? It would be so much faster! Why do you have each patrol make out a menu? Isn't it more economical to eat as a troop? How come you don't teach merit badges at troop meetings? How come you have to select the merit badge counselor? Why can't you just publish the list and let the boy pick who he wants? Shouldn't it be boy led? Why do you set the expectation that the boys should wear their uniform all the time? Shouldn't the boys make that decision? I don't see why you let the SPL choose when the boys should go to bed or get up during outing. Why don't you get them up early? As a Scoutmaster, I really get worn down by having to explain the program to the adults time after time. The boys are never the problem.

I've had Scouts with autism and ADHD and they seemed to respond better to verbal communication if I first put a hand on their shoulder or gave them some other form of physical contact (please no jokes). I've also had a Scout who was physically abused and any sudden movements or attempt to "touch" was greeted with great apprehension. Therefore, obviously, you tailor your communication method to the Scout in question but that takes patience. I've also yelled sometimes - on purpose and quietly telling another adult that I was about to yell - for the purpose of getting the boys attention. It has to be used very rarely or it will lose it's effect. I've also had specific adults and Scouts I was not particularly fond of and tried to make other arrangements for communication with them - have another SA deal with it. But by and large, most of us are all the same and like being treated with respect. Set the expectations high for the boys and they usually surprise you by meeting them.

Why split the Scouts? That sounds painful! If you have peer based patrols they could go as a patrol outing with no adult accompanyment.

Soldiers don't die for nebulous causes they don't understand. Oh how I wish this were true but alas, it is not. Seeing southerners write about the Civil War reminds me of the British writing about the English Civil War (American Revolution).

Adult and youth criteria are different. On the adult Unit Adult Candidate Recommendation it carries the following statement: Selection and induction into the Order of an adult Scouter should take place only when the adult's job in Boy Scouting or Varsity Scouting will make Order of the Arrow membership more meaningful in the lives of the youth membership. It must not be for the purpose of adult recognition. It also states: 1. Selection of the adult is based upon ability to perform the necessary functions to help the Order fulfill its purpose, and not for recognition of service, including current or prior achievement and position. The individual's abilities include: _________________________________________________________________ 2. This adult will be an asset to the Order because of demonstrated abilities that fulfill the purpose of the Order, in the following manner: _________________________________________________________________ 3. The camping requirements that apply for youth candidates apply to adult candidates and must have been fulfilled within the most recent two years prior to recommendation for membership. The requirement, which is a minimum of fifteen days and nights of camping, which must include six days and five nights of resident camping approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America, was fulfilled as follows: ________________________________________________________________ 4. This adult leader's membership will provide a positive role model for the growth and development of the youth members of the lodge because: ________________________________________________________________ Traditionally, in our unit, when I was Scoutmaster I would consider nominating adults after (0ne year later) their son's became candidates. It guaranteed that the boy could go through the Ordeal with out mom or dad and gave the scout the opportunity to be "one up" on his parent(s). It was really neat having my son help me "study" for Brotherhood. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I agree with CalicoPenn. Due to the fact that you arrived late, for whatever reason, how do you know the "speaker" did not move and the flag was correctly placed at the beginning of the meeting? I incorrectly used the term "half-mast" when teaching flag etiquette for IOLS last weekend. I was informed by by a participant that I was in error. I had no issue with that but if he had blurted out and interrupted my presentation during the instruction period I would have been slightly perturbed - even though he was correct and I was in error.

John-in-KC: back in college, we loved watching "The Day After" because ground zero was Lawrence! I have in my office cubical a bumper sticker which reads: CAUTION I brake for all animals ... EXCEPT and then there is a picture of little Jayhawks. The Mizzou/Jayhawk collegiate rivalry (the best in the land) is the only one that existed before the Universities played each other in sporting events. Regardless of what one personally feels about the confederate flag, it still brings out a gut level response (see below). April 30, 2009 - Macomb Daily An attack by a group of young men against four teenagers in Warren, Michigan, apparently over a Confederate flag, is not yet categorized by law enforcers as a hate crime. The victims allege they were confronted as one carried the rolled-up flag and pole to a fundraiser at a VFW hall on the city's south side. David Mobley, 18, said he and his 17-year-old girlfriend, plus a 17-year-old buddy and that teen's girlfriend all of whom are white changed their route while walking to the hall after spotting approximately five to seven blacks shortly before 7 p.m. Saturday. At Memphis and Republic avenues, several other blacks confronted them about the flag, he said. "I tried to explain to them we're not racist, the flag was for a fundraiser," Mobley said. Members of the group hurled racial slurs and profanity at them, and demanded he give up the flag. "I was in the process of turning it over, and my friend was hit in the face," said Mobley, adding that a fracas involving approximately 14 attackers ensued. He suffered bumps and bruises, including an injury to his jaw. Warren police confirmed one of the female victims suffered a broken nose and a concussion. She was held overnight at Henry Ford Hospital, Warren Campus, for observation. Detective Lt. Michael Torey said some of the attackers were part of a group of young men and young women who pulled up in a white car. "There were a lot of people watching from porches and down the street," Mobley said. "All of them watched as (the attackers) bashed this 96-pound girl's face on the car." One man wielding a metal pipe apparently scared the group away. Police have no suspects as the investigation continues. "We don't have anything that would support (proof) of a hate crime at this point in the investigation," Warren Police Commissioner William Dwyer said. "Right now, it's an assault between blacks and whites. "We're not trying to avoid the issue. If it gets to the point of a federal crime, we'll go there." Mobley's mother, Nancy, said the flag had been in her family for 30 years. She said it was intended to be used as a prop for the "hillbilly hoedown" fundraiser they were planning at the nearby VFW hall. She said she's troubled by the incident. "I see it as a racist, hate crime," the Warren woman said. "My son has African-American friends. They come to the house, go to the movies, go to the mall," she said. Torey said police continue to interview the victims and witnesses.

I used to go to roundtable quite frequently. After a two years as a den leader (Wolf/Bear), one as a Webelos Leader and about four years as a Scoutmaster I thought to myself - I know this stuff. I don't need another "supplemental training" about how to conduct a PLC, how to do an entertaining troop meeting, etc. Yes, I wish more of my assistant Scoutmasters would attend roundtable but who I think would really benefit was our SPL! At Philmont during training I asked a few folks if they had SPLs attend roundtable a few did. When I approached our roundtable commissioneer staff the response I got back was absolutely not - we only allow adults. No amount of pleading by me seemed to change their mind. As far as OA meetings - no, I don't think they should be roundtable (supplemental training) for youth. They should have a different function. What I would like to see is for the SPL to attend with an adult from his troop - preferably the Scoutmaster.(This message has been edited by acco40)

GetOutdoors: acco40, So what happens if the scout doesn't participate in 50% of the activities? I see you don't allow them to advance. Per my DE, you don't have the power to do so. They consider that "adding requirements." GetOutdoors and others, I think you may have misunderstood my post. A Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program in the troop. It is the Scoutmaster, or his delagate, that determines if requirements are met. I try to set expectations and fully realize that the national council does not allow us to set attendance requirements. Look at my post again, I use the phrase "Generally, ..." This sets up an expectation. Now, if a Scout does not meet my expectations and I see no reason to change them, I usually don't. However, if a Scout comes to me and explains his situation - for example, our local high school holds a "mandatory" marching band practice during the same time as our troop meetings so mid-August to mid-October we usually miss a handful of Scouts - I work with the Scout and make accomodations. If the Scout never approaches me, regardless if he is in the marching band, I may not make accomodations. I have lots of "silly rules" in the parents eyes. I discourage a Scout from running for SPL if he is not available or unwilling to go to summer camp. Is that fair? Fair to whom I ask? The troop needs a seasoned SPL for summer camp. I realize that Scouts have choices - they just need to learn to deal with the consequences of their choices. If I decide to show up two hours late for work one day my supervisor may not look upon that too kindly and I'd have consequences to deal with. However, if I talked with him in advance and told him that I need to take care of some personal business before work on Tuesday, expect to be about two hours late and have made arrangements so that all of my work gets done on time - he may look at it in a totally different light. The Scouts need to learn that they have an obligation to their patrol and to a lesser extent, their troop. If they are not present, their patrol suffers - regardless of the reason. Teenagers have enough trouble realizing the "but I didn't mean to do it" excuse is not valid. Intent or reason sometimes is irrelevent. I think we owe to the boys to teach them that we have committments and we should try to keep them. So many see advancement only as a personal endeavor.

When I was the Scoutmaster, I had an "Advancement Expectations" file that I kept as my "legal defense" from prosecution by parents. It read in part: PARTICIPATION Participation is essential to advancement and the requirements are clearly defined in the Boy Scout Handbook for the ranks of Tenderfoot through First Class Scout. Participation requirements for Star, Life, and Eagle are listed, but not as specifically defined. The requirements for these ranks are as follows: Tenderfoot: Spend at least one night on a patrol or troop campout. Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch on a ground bed you have prepared. Second Class: Since joining, have participated in five separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), two of which included camping overnight. First Class: Since joining, have participated in ten separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), three of which included camping overnight. Star: Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 4 months as a First Class Scout. Life: Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 6 months as a Star Scout. Eagle: Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 6 months as a Life Scout. For the ranks of Star, Life, and Eagle a requirement of be active exists. What does be active mean? It goes beyond just being registered. It means that you are an active, contributing member of your Patrol and Troop. This requirement is explained in The Boy Scout Handbook, pg 169 as TO GAIN FULL ADVANTAGE of all Scouting has to offer, you need to be present when things are happening. Take part in meetings, in planning activities, and in the fun of adventures. If youre there, you can do your part to make your patrol and troop a success. However, it does not state specific attendance levels. Maybe you are very active in the Order of the Arrow, attending all functions and even serving in a leadership capacity. Your unit leader may not accept that as meeting the participation requirement. Likewise, you may be serving on camp staff all summer and busy during the fall with the start of school, sports, and/or a job. But, if you are not being a participating member, leader and example in your patrol and troop, your unit leader may not accept your performance for this requirement. So what do you do if life has you running a hundred miles an hour? Talk to your Scoutmaster. To avoid disappointment, find out what he sees as acceptable performance before you start working on these ranks. If necessary, use those leadership skills you're developing to negotiate an acceptable arrangement. You'll be glad you did! Generally, to advance, you must participate as follows for the designated 4 or 6 month period: Weekly Meetings: you must participate in more than half of the weekly troop meetings. Campouts: you must participate in more than half of the campouts/outings. Other Troop Activities (parades, fundraisers, service projects, PLC meetings, etc.): you must participate in at least half of these activities. Again, if you cannot meet these participation requirements, for your own benefit, discuss your situation with the Scoutmaster before, not after the fact.

We are a Boy Scout troop. I'm afraid we are slowly gravitating toward a "one hour of entertainment during the week plus once a month camping club" type troop.

The Alps folks are the most Scout friendly company I know. They have excellent prices for Scouts/Scouters although they do not publicize it as much as before because some retail outlets, who now carry their merchandise have complained that the deep discouts hurt their sales. I own the larger Taurus 5 (?) Outfitter and am very pleased with it.

A couple of my pet peeves - Scoutmaster conference requests via email, requests for conferences by the Scout's parent(s), being interrupted by a Scout to ask for a Scoutmaster conference and requests for a conference during a troop meeting. Reasons Scouts need to be comfortable contacting adults on the phone or in person - talk to them - instead of via a one way form of communication - email. Also, I know that I've received emails from parents posing as the Scout. Scouts should also be taught politeness (i.e. be helpful, kind & courteous) and respect my time and his fellow Scouts during troop meetings. During a troop meeting, my efforts are focused on mentoring the youth leaders. Also, the Scout should have a focus during the troop meeting. I've really seen way too many parents and Scouts who are focused only on advancement and not the real aims of Scouting. I've had a Scout come up to me right after a troop meeting, while I was talking to another Scout, and have him exclaim, "You have to give me a Scoutmaster conference now." I calmly explained to Scout, no I do not and second, I - like most individuals - respond better to requests than demands. So, after I get that off my chest I let you know what I tell the boys - the best place to conduct a Scoutmaster conference is during an outing. At most outings, there is plenty of downtime or at least time for me and the Scout to get together without taking away from his patrol or troop. Second, I can gladly meet with the Scout on a non-troop meeting or non-PLC evening or weekend for a conference. I don't have pre-arranged times because I want the Scout to initiate the contact/request.(This message has been edited by acco40)

February 17, 2009: A former student who was shot inside Central High School after gaining entry into the school was in serious condition at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit today, Detroit Public Schools police said. A suspect who accidentally shot himself in the leg after leaving the school also was at Henry Ford Hospital, but his condition was unknown, said district spokeswoman Mattie Majors. He also was not a student, officials said. Police have identified four people of interest tied to the shooting, Majors said. To be blunt, society doesn't care as much about inner city school shootings as they do in the suburbs.

Folks, cure was in quotes for a reason. I was not stating that the "naked boys in a sleeping bag" was the best method to treat hypothermia. I will state that I feel it is one of the best methods to get the boys attention to learning about how to prevent getting hypothermia. The best "treatment" for hypothermia is prevention. Treatment of hypothermia is not always simple. For mild hypothermia you want to stop heat loss by adding additional layers of warm, dry coverings. I tell the Scouts - are your feet cold - put on a hat. Are your hands cold - put on a hat. The head radiates much of the bodies heat. Obviously, go to a warm place if available. Also try to get warm liquids into the person. This is not a "trick" - warm liquids warm the core of the body. For more severe cases, a thermal blanket might be necessary. Warm food or liquids that can help the body generate heat are needed. Again, concentrate on warming the core organs. Treating severe hypothermia is complicated. Doing CPR could be live saving or it could lead to fibrillation and cause death. Cold blood from the bodies extremities (arms and legs, fingers & toes) can actually reduce the core temperature during warming. That is why we concentrate on warming the core. These kinds of techniques are best performed by a professional.

The Scoutmaster Handbook uses the term "Scoutmaster" very loosely. Sometimes it has the meaning of the Scoutmaster and other times it means the Scoutmaster and the Assistant Scoutmasters. Just like merit badges, there are no rules preventing you from giving your son a Scoutmaster conference. However, one of the methods of Scouting is adult association so I think it is in the best interest of your son to let someone else, one of your assistants, give him his Scoutmaster conference. As a father of two scouts, I have many opportunities, outside of Scouting to get the same information as I would in a formal SMC with my sons. Another purpose of a SMC is to get to know the Scout better and for the Scout to get to know the SM/SA better. That is not necessary (I would hope) for a father/son. Also, a Scoutmaster should always be looking for someone they feel could become a SM. Mentor this adult and delegate the SMC for you son as a training opportunity for that SA. As Scoutmaster, you are in charge of your troop's advancement program. You and you alone may choose to delegate this responsibility or not.

What is your name? You can't ask me that, that would be a test! Come on folks, use some common sense. What is the purpose of a BOR? The board of review is how the troop committee tracks the progress of a Scout to determine his understanding of the ideals of Scouting and how he applies them in daily life in the troop. If the board of review is for rank advancement, the board will satisfy itself that the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for that rank and will review with the Scout the requirements for the next rank. The board of review is also a way of reviewing the troop's progress. This review is not and should not be an examination or retest of skills learned. Rather, it is an attempt to determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting's ideals, both in the troop and outside of it. The board should get a sense of the importance that the Scout attributes to Scouting in his home life, at school, and in the troop. It also shows how the Scout perceives the troop and its adult leaders. So how does a BOR review the progress of the troop? Hey son, would you tie a bowline for me? Johnny, would you please recite the Scout Oath and Law? First Class Scout Smith, can you tell me what you learned from the Personal Fitness merit badge? These are all acceptable questions to help in formulating the progress of the troop and the Scouts perception of the troop and adult leaders. What the Board of Reveiw Committee should not do is to determine pass/fail of the BOR based on the answers to these questions. That would constitute a test. One of the failings that our troop has, is that as Scoutmaster, I never once received any feedback - positive or negative - from the troop committee or advancement chair based on what Scouts have mentioned in BORs.

I take the question at face value - When is it to cold to tent camp? Obviously, it depends on the equipment and the individuals. There are four season tents and three season tents (and tents for indoor sleepovers only!). Fiberglass poles become brittle in the cold - I've broken some when the temps get below 15F. Also, zippers and the tent material (usually nylon) can change properties when it becomes too cold. One problem many campers have, in trying to stay warm, it not keeping ventilation - i.e. closing up all of the "windows" in the tent in the winter. They then wake up with ice inside their tent! I once had a Scout show up in canvas tennis shoes with athletic socks to a February outing in the snow. I phoned his father and told him to bring new shoes and socks for his son by Saturday morning or I was sending him home. The Scouts should know - cotton kills - and get them to change their clothes before they go to bed (they contain moisture and that is what is dangerous). The coldest I ever got was a campout in April. We had the first 70 degree day that Friday afternoon since the fall. How cold can it get I thought. That night it got down to the mid 20s. The next day the highs were in the 40s and Saturday night got down to 19F. It wasn't that it was really cold, it was the fact that I was not as prepared as I should have been. I've camped in much colder weather. I don't think I've ever gone "negative" but I've tent camped with temperatures in the single digits, highs of 10F, etc. Wind chill does matter, even if we don't go around in bathing suits. I usually get wind burn because I don't like "stuff" on my face or having my mouth or nose covered. My biggest issue with camping in the cold is how to keep our water supply from turning into our ice supply. Yes we have fire and stoves but when your water jug contains a block of ice, thawing it out without melting the container is a tricky thing. I normally do not like metallic water containers. I always tried to give the Scouts at least one outing a season to winter camp (Jan - March) in tents. Some think it is crazy and never partake and others do it on a regular basis. Yes, parents have the right to decide when it is too cold but many who say "no" have never winter camped and they really "poison the well" with their attitude sometimes. In ten years of Boy Scout camping I've had to deal with only one case of hypothermia. That was at summer camp! We had about four days of continuous rain, temperatures in the 50s and by the fourth day, some of the Scouts had run out of dry clothes (the ones who stated that they didn't need rain gear and were unprepared or obstinate) had uncontrolled shivering. The nice thing is that when the temps are in the 50s, some dry clothes and stuffing them in a dry sleeping bag is all that is needed. I teach the boys that the "cure" for hypothermia is simple. The cold Scout removes all clothes and gets into a dry sleeping bag. The keep him warm with body heat, another Scout, naked of course, is placed in the bag with him to provide warmth. This has two effects on the boys - they pay attention to how they prepare for the cold and don't come running to me every five minutes with complaints that they are cold. It works.

There is no age. An adult leader in Boy Scouts must be 18. Once a leader, the adult is able to hold any position. This is incorrect. The minimum age for a Scoutmaster is 21. A Scoutmaster may delegate to an SA (Assistant Scoutmaster) the task of providing a Scoutmaster conference for any rank. For an Eagle Palm After becoming an Eagle Scout, you may earn Palms by completing the following requirements: 1. Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 3 months after becoming an Eagle Scout or after the award of your last Palm. 2. Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life. 3. Make a satisfactory effort to develop and demonstrate leadership ability. 4. Earn five additional merit badges beyond those required for Eagle or last Palm.*. 5. Take Part in a Scoutmaster conference. 6. Complete your board of review. Active, as debated many times, means different things to different folks. To some, registered equates to active. The Scoutmaster, who is in charge of the advancement program, makes that call. But, the National Council has stated that percentages and other "litmus" tests may not be used to determine active. My oldest 'aged out' in August and went away to college. When we rechartered in January, he requested that he be registered as an SA with the understanding that he would be gone for most of the time but did want to stay registered so he could attend meetings and outings when he could (mid-May to mid-August) and even volunteered to pay for his registration. He would be in that "tween" spot for the boys - a youth in the eyes of the OA, Venture and most of the troop committee but an adult in the eyes of most of the boys (but much cooler that the parents). (This message has been edited by acco40)