acco40

Adolescents are more "appearance" conscience than any other segment of society in my judgment. They just don't gravitate toward an appearance that garners the most universal positive feedback. And I beg to differ about Google. Take a look (in Ann Arbor for instance) about what they wear to work. I bet that if a potential candidate came to an interview is a starched white shirt, black shoes, tie, cuff links, etc. he would lessen his chances of hire due to his "non-creative" appearance. I guess having two sons who have earned Eagle, I realize that what we teach them when in the earlier ranks still needs to be taught in the older ranks. My son wanted a SM conference once for silver eagle palms, at home and I agree and went to put on my uniform. He asked if he was "required" to and I just asked him what did he think - and he went an changed. Nothing "magical" happens when they earn eagle (although the BSA doesn't really want me to let that be known). I think some have a predetermined conception of those who set the expectation for proper uniforming in the BSA as pejorative "uniform police" and "adding to the requirements" types - and yes some are, but I feel the vast majority are just folks who agree to deliver the Scouting program as intended by the BSA and don't feel the need to put our personal stamp on it. Is it rude to point out to a Scout that he is wearing insignia incorrectly on his uniform? Is in rude to point out to a Scout that his first aid skills are incorrect? To both, it all depends on the manner in which it is done.

No argument here. Now start a new thread and ask if committee members should wear their uniforms when holding a meeting with no youths present. I say yes, but the vast majority, my guesss, is no. I think the Scouts pick up on this. Just like the habit I've seen in many troops that have the expectation that the youth wear neckerchiefs but not the adult leaders. As a Scoutmaster I was continually frustrated that the same parents who steadfastly refused to wear a uniform - they were registered scouters - a redundant term mind you) complained that the boys were lax in uniforming. Go figure.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Illinois is a neighboring Great Lakes state. From the Chicago Breaking News website: The state of Michigan filed a lawsuit asking the U.S. Supreme Court to force Illinois to close Chicago-area locks to try to stop the advancement of invasive Asian carp into the Great Lakes. Cox's suit names the state of Illinois, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the Metropolitan Water Reclamation District of Greater Chicago. The Army Corps of Engineers, which operates the locks and dams, has spoken publicly about closing them in the hopes of saving the region's $7 billion sport and commercial fishing industry. "Stopping Asian carp is an economic and environmental necessity for Michigan," Cox said in a statement. "The Great Lakes are an irreplaceable resource. Thousands of jobs are at stake and we will not get a second chance once the carp enter Lake Michigan. "The actions of Illinois and federal authorities have not been enough to assure us the Lakes are safe. That's why the waterways must be shut down until we are assured that Michigan will be protected." The suit, filed in the U.S. Supreme Court, asks for the following actions: Closure of the locks at the O'Brien Lock and Dam and the Chicago Controlling Works; Operation of the sluice gates at the Wilmette Pumping Station, the O'Brien Lock and Dam, and the Chicago Controlling Works in a manner that will prevent carp from passing into Lake Michigan; Creation of new barriers to prevent carp from escaping from the Des Plaines River into the Chicago Sanitary and Shipping Canal during flood events, and from getting to Lake Michigan through the Grand and Little Calumet Rivers; Comprehensive study of the Chicago waterway system to define where and how many carp are in these waters, and to eradicate them; Action to permanently separate these waterways from the Great Lakes. Cox went directly to the Supreme Court because it handles disputes between states. Michigan is seeking to reopen a case dating back more than a century, when Missouri filed suit after Chicago reversed the flow of the Chicago River and began sending sewage-fouled Lake Michigan water south toward the Mississippi River. After that issue was resolved, several Great Lakes states -- including Michigan --- renewed the suit with a new complaint: Chicago's diversion of water away from the basin was harming the lakes by lowering water levels. Beavah - Oh, yah, and da original SCOTUS ruling went against Illinois. Please enlighten us.

Yes, a legal guardian is required for some things in Cub Scouts (doesn't have to be a parent but can't just be a neighbor with a note either) but I don't recall the exact circumstances (but I'm sure you could find it in this forum if you searched that topic). When the boys got a little older, say Bear, I made sure that when I conducted den meetings "offsite" that the meeting started once they arrived - so how they got there, etc. didn't fall under my watch. Once at a meeting, I could be the only adult - no two-deep ledership required (something many forget) - just no one on one contact (unless my son).

I have no issue with them as long as they are not athiests and are fully uniformed.

Scouting is an environment where we allow the Scouts to "fail" with very little consequences. If my college sophomore son shows up to a job interview non-clean shaven, heavy metal t-shirt, etc. the interviewer will probably not focus on his Eagle scout award, community service, respectful attitude, excellent leadership skills and may not give him the time of day. Is that fair? Doesn't matter. In Scouts, we've had boys show up without their neckerchief, no scout socks, no scout pants, etc. and the chair of the board - for even Tenderfoot - has asked the Scout to reschedule because they are not properly uniformed (they know the families well enough to know it is not due to finances). What are the consequences? The scout may get his BOR 30 minutes later if he decides to go home and put on his uniform, he may decide to reschedule to a different day delaying his "gratification", his parent may be appreciative to the board for helping to teach their son a life lesson with very little real consequences, his parents may be furious for the board adding "an additional requirement" and thus singling out their son (a life lesson for the parent?), he may get discouraged and quit, or he may learn that hey, how I present myself leaves a lasting impression of folks. Personally, I think way to many of our youth keep the two and three year old attitude that they are the center of the universe and setting expectations for them is a good thing. And by the way, don't you guys recognize sarcasm when you see it? It's almost as if you guys have actual expectations concerning a volunteers behavior and that is just not right . - OGE (This message has been edited by acco40)

It has been awhile since I've been involved with Cub Scouts but ... What sets the standard for den/pack outings as far as supervison is concerned? Now, given the way you framed the question are you asking what the rule (i.e. standard) states or what is "standard" as in standard operating procedure. When I was a den leader (younger than Webelos) I like a no more than a 2:1 youth to adult ratio for outings with the den leader not responsible for more than their own only. Now from G2SS: Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities. Of course, forget the fact that a Boy Scout patrol may camp with no adult leaders if given Scoutmaster approval - you don't have to figure that one out just yet.

I'm saying we need to stop this panicky reaction and go back to thinking rationally about the subject. Sometimes we wait much to long for "proof" before we act and sometimes we don't. Take the banning of DDT. Some say because of heavy usage in the 1950s and 1960s and early 1970s, DDT led to an increase in diabetes, breast cancer, liver cancer, pancreatic cancer, testicular cancer, leukemia, premature birth, etc. Others say the "panicky" banning of DDT led to and increase of malaria and other parasitic diseases spread by arthropods. Of course we should not go about and make rash decisions but also not always wait until "all the science is in" - folks still debate the effects of cigarette smoking for instance.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Did you hear about the need for introducing a new game fish to Lake Michigan? After the die off of other game fish, they introduced the COHO salmon. It was a great fish but fishermen wanted fish that put up a little more fight when trying to reel it in so they cross bred a COHO salmon with a walleye to produce a hybrid Co-wall fish. Wanting an even more sporting fish, one that would hit the lure hard, they crossed the Co-wall with a muskie to get the superlative game fish. It tasted great, fought well and hit the lure hard. Yes, the Co-wall-skie fish did everything they wanted - they just needed to teach it how to swim. Sea lampreys are like salmon and have a salt water, freshwater lifecycle (anadromous). They entered Lake Ontario via the Erie Canal. They entered Lake Erie (1830s) via the Welland Canal (1920s). Lamprey populations peaked in the mid 1960s (which is when the COHO salmon was introduced intentially because the other game fish were essentially gone). With these game fish gone, another invasive species flourished - alewives. Heavy use of "fish poison" (TFM) on their spawning grounds have helped decrease their numbers but not eliminate them. By the way, electric fences were also used to try and control the lampreys and that failed. Zebra mussels did come from ocean going ships dumping there ballast (no illegal but still quite frequent) into the Great Lakes. They "gunked up" lots of things but also cleared the water a lot (they filter vast quantities) which made sunlight go very deep in to the lakes which increased vegetation to enormous levels causing quite a lot of rotting matter (moral of all the above - it's not nice to fool mother nature). From wikipedia (so it must be true!) The EPA is concerned about the possibility of Asian carp migrating to the Great Lakes. In 2002, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers completed an electric fish barrier in the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal, the only aquatic link between the Great Lakes and the Mississippi River drainage basins. The initial fish barrier was used as a demonstration project to study the design's effectiveness. Following positive results, construction began on a second, permanent barrier in 2004. In November, 2009, carp genetic material was detected beyond the two electric barriers, leaving only a single lock/dam on the Calumet River between the detected presence and Lake Michigan. "This is absolutely an emergency," Joel Brammeier, acting president of the Alliance for the Great Lakes, was quoted as saying, referring to the ecological threat, and also mentioning the threat to recreational boaters. "Mr. Brammeier and some others called for the immediate closing of the lock ... though others doubted it was feasible to stop shipping traffic. 'All options are on the table,' said Jacqueline Y. Ashmon, a spokeswoman for the Corps of Engineers. 'We dont have any specifics.'" In the first week of December, 2009, the Army Corps shut down one of the electric barriers for maintenance, and the Illinois Department of Natural Resources responded by dumping 2,200 gallons of the toxin Rotenone into the canal. Rotenone, the report said, is deadly for fish but not harmful to humans, animals or most other aquatic life. While "scores" of fish were killed, only one carp was found, near Lockport Lock and Dam and nearly six miles below the electronic barriers. The fish kill cost $3 million and produced 90 tons of dead fish, reported one commentator, who also noted a parallel with an intentional fish kill in Chicago, in Lincoln Park's South Pond, by the IDNR in Nov., 2008. Now, acco40 again - I've heard some say that Asian carp will not float - like 99% of the fish killed, but will sink - that's why none were found. That sounds fishy to me, but I don't have the facts on that. (wiki again) 2009-2010 litigation On December 21, 2009, Michigan State Attorney General Mike Cox, who is a Republican running for Governor of the State of Michigan, filed a lawsuit with the U.S. Supreme Court seeking the immediate closure of the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal to keep the Asian Carp out of Lake Michigan. Neighboring Great Lakes states and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which constructed the Canal, are codefendants in the lawsuit. In response to the Michigan lawsuit, on January 5, 2010, Illinois State Attorney General Lisa Madigan filed a counter-suit with the U.S. Supreme Court requesting that it reject Michigans claims. Siding with the State of Illinois, both the Illinois Chamber of Commerce and The American Waterways Operators have filed affidavits, arguing that closing the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal would upset the movement of millions of tons of vital shipments of iron ore, coal, grain and other cargo, totaling more than $1.5 billion a year, and contribute to the loss of hundreds, perhaps thousands of jobs. There is no issue of water diversion in the Great Lakes. All of the Great Lakes States, through the US Government, and two provinces in Canada (Ontario - borders the Great Lakes, and Quebec - St. Lawrence Seaway), are part of the Great Lakes Compact, which grants each state and province a set amount of water that they can divert for use. Au contraire fish breath. The Great Lake states, including Michigan sue over water diversion in the 1920s. In that case and others, the court repeatedly sided with the interests of the Chicago area. In 1967 with another lawsuit (there are many) the Supreme Court ruled for Illinois again but with the caveat that it was capped at 2.1 billion of gallons a day and ruled that if adjacent states could demonstrate that this diversion was causing them harm they could bring the case back to court. This decision is what is now being used to file suit, once again, against Illinois. So I would say all parties are hunky dory with each other. The Great Lakes Compact is a pact between eight Great Lakes states and the Canadian Provinces of Quebec and Ontario, barring other states and foreign countries from tapping into the Great Lakes' water supply, with certain exceptions. Shipping water in containers larger than 5.7 gallons are considered diversions and prohibited. It also requires the member states of the Great Lakes Commission to begin regulating their own water use, and to promote conservation of the lakes. Motivation to develop the compact was started by a failed attempt in 1998 by a Canadian company to export up to 158,000,000 gallons of water each year to Asia.(This message has been edited by acco40)

To answer Lisabob - I'll monitor this forum quite frequently for a few days, weeks and then not at all for a month. My view is that if you feel a thread should be closed (like traffic accidents, it usually is well visited by both gawkers and posters) see which participants are moderators (look for the asterisk near their name) and send a private message. Unless you are a moderator, I don't believe you can access the moderators thread. The moderators are all just like you folks. No real collaboration exists between them. We all are independent. I don't want to speak for Terry, but I think we were somewhat chosen, quite some time ago, because we had different perspectives on things. I'll state for myself that I'm better versed in Socuting knowledge than in internet forum knowledge.

I have a higher threshold than what was displayed in the "gays" thread than what OGE displayed. My preference would have been to possibly ban (short term) or "chill" a particular poster, not close the thread. Issues and Politics does come with a warning - In answer to many requests, we established a separate forum for these topics. Those not interested can skip this forum instead of spending time reading unwanted messages to identify content. and thus we should have a very high "pain" threshold for that particular area. I may be biased, being a moderator, but I also don't like folks asking for threads to be closed in the thread itself. Either send a private message to the moderator(s) of your choice or simply leave. I've also noted that the moderator section has not had any posts at all for over six months. I prefer to have a moderator "debate" before we take action but as it exists now, the moderator with the lowest threshold may act as they please. FYI, in no way am I trying to imply that OGE's action of closing the thread was in any way "wrong" just not what I would have done. That last comment sounds much like the comedy routine reply (Seinfeld?) - not that there's anything wrong with that.. (This message has been edited by acco40)

D-A is one of the few Scout camps that is a working ranch too. We take advantage of it. On one outing we took our Scouts (Boy Scouts not Cub Scouts) on a horse ride. The horses were not on a lead but they did trail each other single file. As Scoutmaster, the staff gave me the horse that needed the most control. Well, all started off after being measured, helmeted and given basic instructions. All went along single file except the horse that my youngest son was on. He (the horse, not my son) decided that instead of going on the same stupid trail for the thousandth time or more, why not just wander over to the meadow and much on some new spring grass instead. My son "rode" him there with a puzzled look on his face. My older son and I continued along the trail. After about 20 minutes or so we looped back and my son was still on the horse (within supervision of the camp staf the whole time). I'd say both of us "rode" or had a horseback ride for the same duration. (This message has been edited by acco40)

The great lakes provide over $4 billion of tourism revenue to Michigan. Michigan has already see freshwater diverted from the lakes, infestations of zebra mussels, infestations of sea lampreys, and now the asian carp is coming. Water rights is a big issue in Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, California, etc. and the great lake states feel that the fresh water in their "territory" is their's and it should not be drained, used as a sewer, used as a ship ballast dumping area and they have the responsibility for stewardship over the lakes and should prevent the introduction of invasive species. I tend to agree. Closing the canals would cause a financial (shipping costs) burden to Illinois and others that would be "for sure" but the "most probable" financial loss due to introduction of Asian carp into the great lakes would dwarf that amount.(This message has been edited by acco40)

"After going in front of the board to get his project approved my son made a comment to me about how the board was dressed." All - read the post more carefully. One does not go in front of an Eagle Board to get one's project approved. One goes in front of an Eagle Board to receive their Eagle Board of Review. Now, as Scoutmaster, I've encouraged my Scouts be in uniform when seeking project approval or attending ANY BOR. I've also encouraged all committee members, all have to be registered Scouters, to wear their uniform at all (most) Scouting events. Let me just say I got about 95% compliance with the youth and about 5% compliance from the adults.

Just a thought: Baden-Powell apparently had no 'nerd' or 'wussie' credentials, and massive 'He-Man' credentials. Does that mean that he was a bully, Dan? It may not mean that he was a bully. However, he did have a young male companion for quite a long time and a rather platonic relationship with his wife. It may not mean he was gay but ... "Evidence of his abiguous sexuality suggests in the context of his time an altogether more troubled and complex figure than a simple critique would imply." -Ben Knights "Another officer attacted to young men was General Sir Robert Baden-Powell ...Baden-Powell's attitudes towards women ranged from companionable neutrality to outright hostility and he married only at the age of 55. His sentiments about the male sex were typified by a pithy assertion "A clean young man in his prime of health and strength is the finest creature God has made in the world." Baden-Powell had a long and intense friendship with Kenneth McLaren "the Boy", "my best friend in the world" a relationship that might have encompassed a physical side. BP surrounded himself with handsome subalterns aned assistants, and admired a team of African gymnasts as "magnificent specimens." He counselled Scouts to control their sexual urges, avoid fantasizing about women and refrain from "self-pollution" an thought that sexual passion could disappear among noble-minded young men. Female nudity revolted him, but he took pleasure in watching young males swim nude. He enjoyed peeks at 'those wonderful photographs' of a friend, pictures of naked boys. The available evidence points inexorably to the conclusion that Baden-Powell was a repressed homosexual." - Robert Aldrich (Colonialism and Homosexuality) So before we debate what would have to change if gays were allowed in, maybe we should debate if anything would be any different if the gays that already exist in Scouting, including the BSA, were allowed to remain as members without having to be "stealth" gays?(This message has been edited by acco40)

When I first became a Scouter the 'McDonalds' analogy was usefull for me. Think of the BSA like McDonalds. As an Asst. Den Leader, you 'work' for a Pack which is owned by a Charter Organization which was 'franchised' from the BSA (National Council). They tell you what food you can serve (handbooks, advancement program, uniforms, etc.), how you should cook and serve it (guides, policies, etc.) and retain the right to remove or drop you if they wish. You get some leeway (when do we meet, what will we do each den meeting, etc.) and are allowed to give feedback to the parent corporation (National Council) but they may or may not listen (i.e. you don't have a "vote" exactly.

GaHillBilly - I don't know if you have sex with your mother or not ... The above is not a lie, yet it is not civil discourse either. Now, to the original question - What would have to change is gays were allowed in? Let me rephrase the question, What do you think should to change if gays were allowed in? Nothing that I can think of. Gay or not, there is a decorum that exists in restrooms, showers, tents, out in the open that doesn't change. If my wife attends a campout with me, we keep our relationship platonic during the outing. I'd expect the same from all folks - youth and adult.(This message has been edited by acco40)

HiLo, maybe we should ship GaHillBilly to a penal colony! Seriously, you will find that in the USA, discussion of sexual orientation is about as conducive to civil discourse as discussions on abortion. My apologies. Roughly speaking, I think the BSA should take about the same stance on leaders as the Girl Scouts. They have much more restrictive rules in some instances (training, background checks, etc.) and much less in other areas (religious / sexual litmus tests, etc.). I remember a fellow den leader who came to the brilliant conclusion that because he had time constraints, his bear den would meet for one four hour meeting a month instead of a weekly den meeting. Now thats an understanding of the program!

Politics is a process by which groups of people make decisions. Politics is and should be part of Scouting and our everyday life. The problem is, folks now use that term in a pejorative sense. In Cub Scouts, adults (Akela) teach. In Boy Scouts, adults mentor, boys teach. My biggest pet peeve is still Scouters who don't know the program. The program aims are not to teach "scouting" skills but character, citizenship and to develop personal fitness.

Scouts don't need to learn to protect themselves from a defensive point of view (that is putting an unfair burden on them in my view) but they should be taught that if any adult (including their parents, teachers, Scout leaders, aunts, uncles, neighbors, police officers, religious leaders, etc.) do anything that make them feel uncomfortable (no need to go through a litiny of sexual acts) they should tell another adult that they trust. Why would any parent object to the above?

My oldest son, and Eagle scout, earned the Paul Bunyon award ('axe patch'). He was very proud of it and was the first one to earn it in his troop for quite some time. As his father and also his Scoutmaster, he asked me where it should go on his uniform. It told him that it didn't belong on his uniform but he could sew it on his backpack, duffle bag, blanket, etc. He was disappointed and finally made a decision to sew in above his left pocket. I didn't get ballistic. He didn't accuse me of being anal and bowing to the whim of guides. He was proud of it and I must say it did generate questions from other Scouts in the troop asking how they could earn that patch and inspired a few to do the same (good news). When they did earn the award, it promptly went on their uniform in the same place for surely if the Scoutsmaster's son could do it, they could too (bad news). I later talked to my son about setting an example, good and bad, and I think he took it too heart. He earned his Eagle on his 17th birthday and earned palms every quarter until he was 18. At 18, he was jacked to "grow-up" and I presented him a new shirt with an ASM patch, Eagle knot and of course no rank insignia. He was very proud to were that shirt and had no issue with not having his youth rank insignia. By the way, it didn't have a Paul Bunyan award either. Has anyone ever seen a Scouter wear an Eagle rank badge as a temporary patch? I believe that would be okay wrt the insignia guide.

Someone we would share a tent with? Come on folks, don't we expect our Scouts to be able to share a tent with all (youth) troop members? I don't think I wouldn't share my tent with any (male) Scouter. I think some of us have the type of personality (conservatives?) that make the assumption that one has to earn friendship and others (liberals?) that one has to do something to lose friendship. Complete strangers have allowed me, as a Scoutmaster, to take their young sons into the woods for a few days. What does that say about them? Similar to the discussion on gays, if one is not considered "anti-gay" is one by default "pro-gay?" If one is friendly with someone, are they not a friend? I hate to pull the old "Webster's defines it as" argument but I tend to go more with the 1b and 2a definitions (sort of the "facebook" definition - ) 1 a : one attached to another by affection or esteem b : acquaintance 2 a : one that is not hostile b : one that is of the same nation, party, or group 3 : one that favors or promotes something (as a charity) 4 : a favored companion 5 capitalized : a member of a Christian sect that stresses Inner Light, rejects sacraments and an ordained ministry, and opposes war called also Quaker

Global warming - easily determined by looking at "temperature" records over the last 150 years or so. Conclusion - yes! Difficult part - why? Another question - is this a small blip (150 years not much in the grand scheme of things) or a serious indicator of the future? This is a classic risk evaluation problem. What is the risk, what is the cost, etc. My take, we (USA) should be serious about studying the problem but not just through money to any researcher who asks for it.

Eamonn - is there as much emphasis on advancement elsewhere as there is in the BSA? Our summer camps, unfortunately, are geared for advancement. The main purpose many of the adults put their sons into Scouting, at least at the troop level, is to earn the Eagle rank. I've had two sons go through the program - both earning Eagle. I'd say for one, "it took" and for the other, well, he's only 18 but I'm hoping for rewards downstream from now. (This message has been edited by acco40)

The den chief is selected by the Sr. Patrol Leader and the Scoutmaster (assuming they came from a troop) at the request of a Cubmaster. The den chief "reports" to the Den Leader (or Webelos Den Leader) and the Scoutmaster. I know that in reality, a Scout will step up and ask to be a den chief for den such as such (many times his younger brother's den where his mom or dad is the den leader ). Edited for clarity. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)