ThenNow

This is what I hear. Carve outs, do overs, "this issue is a no-go" and the like. If she is not essentially structuring and teeing up the do overs, this will be a mess me thinks. Yeah. Zero percent chance she's at the shore. This is too big, too time sensitive, too high profile, too costly to all concerned, and too complex to do anything other than slog through it. I wonder, does a judge get access to consultants, other than clerks?

Relative outsider here, but someone who did what there was to do in Scouting (as a youth) and went on after I turned 18. Many here know that story and I won't reiterate it. A few thoughts and questions: 1. Has there every been a national leader who has not come up through the ranks or who has a significant background in Scouting? I know the new GC was not a Scout or Scouter. 2. Who is BSA's PR firm? Did they have one prior to the CSA litigation and, again, who was it? If you don't have some sort of "outside" media consultant not constrained by the leadership bubble of the "Scouting way," that's a huge red flag. I was ED of a medium size non-profit in the late 90's and we had a marketing firm and a PR firm. Also, they were current and not old school. 3. My atypical Eagle project was a marketing slide presentation promoting summer camp, generally. I conceived it, took the photos, produced, executed and deployed it within the LC. It was complete with script, followup instructions and other guides for presenters who took the show on the road. From what a recall it was a big success. I still have some of the slides that didn't make it on the carousels. No one had thought of it before that, as far as I know. I felt like we did a poor job of promoting all we had going for us, even then. 4. I was awarded my Eagle in 1975 (earned in 1974), left Scouting in 1979 and never heard from anyone - nary a peep or a post card - since. The first contact was when I sent a letter to the Local SE and Mr. Mazzuca in 2008 telling them about my abuse, including naming my SM abuser. I received no response. 5. I reached out again in 2019 and was put on the LC Executive Board as a donor. When the Chapter 11 case started and my name was appearing in print media, I was no longer on the letterhead. 6. I have continued to be baffled by the lack of engagement, "getting out front," and reading things that are low hanging fruit as far as marketing, promoting and interfacing with the NON-Scouting world. Failure to engage and invite survivors into the YP conversation is one of the absolutely glaring gaffs. That's all I have, for what it's worth. BSA needs to unstick itself from the past on many fronts or risk dying in that very mud.

Ack x ack. Was there any hint going to from whence cometh this foul smelling breeze?

You're talking about under the plan, regardless the before or after 1976, yes? IF they're not released, the stay of litigation including live and yet to be filed cases revert back to state courts for litigation and/or settlement. Defend, assert defenses, engage discovery of all types, wrangle through insurance coverage, and the like. In that scenario NOT that it's what's going to happen, it's an "all LCs and COs fend for yourself state of play. I could be wrong. I'm having an out of body day. (Nod to Dr. Strange.) Apologies to the moderators if this is out of place, but I was attempting to answer the question. Ty.

That's what I figured. Nope. No absolution via release from liability unless and until the plan is both approved by the bankruptcy court and then blessed by the District Court. It could all crumble, especially the release of Local Councils and Chartered Organizations. Could being operative. I think Judge Silverstein knows full well what would happen if the third parties are not release. Regardless, I don't understand why National does such a poor job of keeping local Scouting apprised. Maybe they do and I just don't see/hear it.

Riddle me this: What happens if the Chapter 11 global settlement whittles down to the BSA only, Toggle Plan? Did the real estate attorneys for any of these LCs factor in the prospect of retraction or delays in closing, pending the completion of the case? My assumption is, no, since no one expected it to go on this long ON TOP OF most LCs being repeatedly told, "All is well. You're fine. Scouting continues. You're not in bankruptcy, your money won't be needed, no camps will be sold..." Also, what is the mechanism for delivery the cash and is it all going into a sequestered escrow with the court?

I was just about to paste it...D-2. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/da60d7ce-df85-45e9-9737-4dd1a5d50014_6445.pdf "Missed it by THAT much." (Nod to Get Smart)

May not be what you referenced, but the TCC's LC digits are here, which include properties. https://www.tccbsa.com/local-council-analysis

Appraised value, market value, tax roll value, value after variance and rezoning...?

What’s the Chapter 11 record? We might as well set another while we’re at it, eh?

How many days out from the conclusion of the trial are we at this point? All I know is I have a Rip Van Winkle beard and a nasty crick in my neck.

Why didn’t someone do this proactively? Several Scouters were talking around this idea a year (or so) ago. While I honor and understand this man’s concern, if we took this direction most churches, schools, man youth programs/venues and millions of homes would be shuttered. Joe, a victim who did not want his last name used because his family is unaware of his experience, was abused by his scout master starting at the age of 8 in the 1970s at a Connecticut camp that was sold years ago to make way for housing on Candlewood Lake. He’s not sure he wants people camping on land where scouts were once abused. “I don’t have those warm feelings about those places,” he said. “It’s almost like ‘Poltergeist.’ Do you want your house on land where those things happened? So, I don’t know what to do with those places.”

Definitely not easy. There's one "benefit" to all of this that is seldom mentioned and then only by survivors. I guess that's as it should be. In addition to the prospect of (a potentially wee amount of money), large steps to improve YP including survivors on at the table, a measure of public accountability and acknowledgement, hopefully organizational shakeup and changes at the top, getting clarity on what LCs and COs are and their shared liability, and the prospect of healing and some closure, there is something profound. Namely, we now have the first sorta public band of Scouting child sexual abuse brothers and sisters. Without this horror of a process, that would not have occurred. Sad, but true. I will go forward with friendships I pray will last a lifetime. I also met some no so bad Scouters along the way who helped me understand more about were the heart of Scouting beats with some vision and purity.

As an art person who is also very sentimental and protective of monuments, this sickens me. My youngest son is with an auto insurer's Special Investigative Unit. Thefts of catalytic converters rose 325% during the pandemic and not because people needed money all of a sudden. Simply, cars were sitting everywhere begging to be stripped of precious metal. One company had $21M in these claims in a six month period of Covid lockdowns. Skilled thieves take less than a minute. One report was of a ring hitting retirement homes and ambulances. I do mean ring, btw. 30 people involved in one general location. Disgusting.

Cool. This is the first time I and/or one of my posts has been dubbed absurd. I think I’ll let someone who “knows” me, the case, my posting history, and this specific issue defend the point (and me).

I assume this is a serious question and you're not just messing with me. If the latter, yes, and COVID, gas prices and and global warming. Just levity, my friend. See, below. As follows: 1. Relevance - See Inquisitive's comments. 2. Relevance - Purdue got kicked back to Judge Drain after the District Court said it can't be approved due to the third party, non-debtor releases. 3. Relevance - This case, like Purdue and as stated in the excerpt, will end up being more about protecting those that follow us than providing closure, justice and recompense to survivors of past BSA child sexual abuse. Thus, my previous rantings about YPT and youth protection. An emphasis on prevention rather than the past Lahav says she sympathizes with individuals who call the settlement unfair. That maximum payment for a death, in the range of $40,000, is a fraction of what other drugmakers have paid to settle lawsuits, according to attorneys who review such cases. But this settlement is different because it was negotiated in bankruptcy court and there was a fixed pot of money.

For what it's worth and though it's dated, I find this article interesting and relevant. Some may, as well. Here's a snippet and the link: An emphasis on prevention rather than the past About 90% of the settlement, which could deliver between $6 billion and $10 billion over time, will go to states, local governments and tribes. They're supposed to use it to fight the opioid crisis. University of Connecticut law school professor Alexandra Lahav says that ratio prioritizes the greater good, going forward. "To me it shows an emphasis on how do we fix what is broken for the future," says Lahav, "versus people who were already hurt in the past." NATIONAL As Purdue Pharma Bankruptcy Nears Approval, Family Members Write About The Human Toll Lahav says she sympathizes with individuals who call the settlement unfair. That maximum payment for a death, in the range of $40,000, is a fraction of what other drugmakers have paid to settle lawsuits, according to attorneys who review such cases. But this settlement is different because it was negotiated in bankruptcy court and there was a fixed pot of money. Lawyers representing individuals and all the states disagreed about how to divide it. Some attorneys who followed the proceedings say states had the advantage and prevailed. https://www.npr.org/2021/09/28/1040447650/payouts-purdue-pharma-settlement-sackler

Yes, Likewise, enough with "guns are evil, only law enforcement and military should have guns (but let's defund the police, reduce our military and ignore the facts evidencing blanket restrictions don't work while we're at it) and I will 'stand with' the families (while I stand on the bodies of their children to signal my virtue)" while it happens again.

Is this a statement to the effect that, "S/he is a danger to herself and/or others"? Who gets the report and is it filed under penalty of perjury as to the facts stated? It has to be a verified statement of some kind. Is this the preemptory "red flag" process, the confiscation trigger or both? I don't know a ton about this but would like to read the bill. What is the restriction, how broad and does it have a sunset or expiration clause and/or conditions for retraction? It does, but drawing these lines is very complex in my opinion. I think there is a big assumption here around the fundamental requirement of observant, caring family and friends. Fortunately for me and others I've "run with" over the course of my struggles, most of us had people sequester weapons when they had a hint of trouble. In all of those cases it was about a "danger to self." One of my friends, my NA sponsor, was a vet and very good at projecting confidence and model recovery behavior. No one thought to remove his weapons from his home. As it happened, he used his shotgun to end his life while huddled in his sleeping bag in a concrete drainage pipe by the side of the road. One of my friends called me yesterday to say she had locked away the one gun in their home. Her new to recovery husband has suicidal ideation and others-focused rage on a cyclic basis. I offered to fetch it into one of my safes. I am not a disinterested or dispassionate debater on this topic. I am very interested, personally invested and vexed. I need to start printing and seriously reviewing the research, not that anyone is going to ask me for my suggestions. I appreciate yours.

1. Who is making this list of Dementia patients and psychologically disordered individuals, to whom is it reported, how does the pre-purchase "red flag" work, and who executes the search and seizure of those weapons already in their possession? Are all weapons included in the prohibition and seizure? Are family members mandated to "report" and, in the event they fail or mishandle the reporting, are they liable for any resulting injury? Mental health providers? Geriatricians? GP? Friends, employers, colleagues, children...? 2. How do we define "major psychological disorders"? 3. Does your research indicate that all/most/many of those found to commit gun violence are "off their meds"? 4. Beyond these laws, how do you see your suggestion being drafted and implemented? https://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-and-criminal-justice/possession-of-a-firearm-by-the-mentally-ill.aspx

Suicide is the second-leading cause of death among people age 15 to 24 in the U.S. Nearly 20% of high school students report serious thoughts of suicide and 9% have made an attempt to take their lives, according to the National Alliance on Mental Illness. #### “Teenagers and young adults have the highest rates of suicide compared to other ages,” Dr. Fleisher says. “The things that make them vulnerable are where they stand socially and where they stand developmentally.” Developmentally, their judgment and decision-making abilities are still coming online, he says. The prefrontal cortex — the brain’s executive control center — doesn’t fully develop until one’s mid-20s. That makes young people more impulsive, Dr. Fleisher says: "They're not going to weigh risks and consequences or values in quite the same way that older folks will.” Socially, teens and young adults don’t have the same connections older adults do. Someone who is married, has a long-term partner or has children or grandchildren is in a different place socially than someone who is just coming into their own, living with roommates or alone. The isolation of the pandemic exacerbated social disconnection even more. https://connect.uclahealth.org/2022/03/15/suicide-rate-highest-among-teens-and-young-adults/

I will leave it at this, but IMNSHO that is a terrible and egregious assumption from someone - I ASSUME - who has not been in the head, heart and circumstances of someone who is suicidal. I really wish you had not said this and, more so, that you didn't hold this opinion of young men you saw meet their end. This is the second time this opinion has been expressed on the forum and it deeply saddened me both times. Utterly.

I'm not a heavy up-voter, especially if a post has what I believe to be more than one point, any one of which I vehemently disagree with. I surely grieve. See my point about gun violence, CSA and sex trafficking. I put them in the same sentence. "Failure" to punch the wee emoji-producing icon neither negates it nor allows you to assume I or anyone else doesn't grieve. I hope that's not what you meant. It's a post that is upvoted. I see nothing where I can upvote line by line or point by point. For me, I couldn't do so because of your advocacy for a total ban and, presumably, confiscation. Trust me, I grieve. Not stating as much is no sin of omission, just my choice not to affirm your entire post.

Not directly responsive, but I thought I would post it. From my conversations, most people don't know this. I have not researched the background study or studies. Next to this chart it is must be noted that 4 of the 5 most deadly shootings involved a semi-auto rifle. https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/

Amen. Like child sexual abuse, as well as trafficking and mental health overall, where are the real champions of the cause(s) Who will humbly and earnestly convene a true coalition of thinkers, donors and doers? I see precious few. Our oldest some was a Criminal Justice major with a Homeland Security emphasis. His track was graduate, Police Academy, then FBI, Homeland or the like. After Ferguson, his now wife begged him to reconsider. He did and I'll spare you the subsequent details. In any case, I have put a great deal of time into thinking about and researching the topic. I am no expert, merely a troubled citizen and father, moderately passionate gun guy, lifelong hunter, lifetime NRA member and yada yada yada. I know a good bit about guns and a good bit about mental and behavioral health. I know a decent amount about the flux of society and have a better than average knowledge of politics, policy and party loyalty idiocy. A few thoughts. I am not trying to indict or incite, merely share my musings. 1. If guns were the only issue, my hometown, with guns hanging from a rack in the back of every pickup truck and bouncing around in the trunk of many cars, would've had a real problem with mass shootings in the 60's and 70's. Didn't happened and that's a good data point. (This is borne out as a clear trend in the US.) Did I or others typically own a tactical rifle then? No. Do I think it would've made a difference? I don't. I have 8 long guns and two pistols. None has wandered out of the safe or otherwise and committed so much as one crime. I've had the 20 gauge since I was 11 and the BB gun since I was 10. 2. Mental health is clearly a major factor or there would be many statistical data points highlighting the number of murderers and shooters with previously identified maladies. As it is, a great many have been identified pre-action, but often unreported or, if reported, not acted upon by friends, family, professionals and others. I am not blaming, just pointing it our. Also, all mental health issues are not in play as high level candidates for identification, study and analysis. If that were the case, more people suffering with clinical depression, eating disorders, anxiety disorders and childhood trauma would be on the list of offenders. They're not. Anger, a history of violence toward self, others and animals, exposure to violence (especially domestic and neighborhood), inner city gun violence, delusional behavior and public, extremist communications are the top line. There is a ton here to discuss, including retaliatory domestic and workplace rage. In most cases, there were signs there, too. 3. Taking back or restricting guns when we have 400M of them in the US is impossible, unenforceable, and would not be carried out by many sent door to door to do it. I've spoken with people who would have that task and they would be subtly non-compliant. Ditto forcing registration. Threaten heavy restrictions on guns and ammo? See the data from 2020-2021. My wife asked for a pistol for Christmas in 2020. True fact. "If they're going to take away my right I want one before they do." Will law abiding people register? Not many. Why? It is a clear infringement of their right. "Come and take it" and "Don't tread on me" are not just bumper stickers, flags and slogans. Again, not picking a fight here. 4. Virtual violence is definitely deteriorative and a contributing factor. Studies have shown it is not major, though. With those virtual worlds, violence is celebrated and rewarded, but where is it far worse? 5. Answer: Media complicity and sensationalism. The media loves selling views, clicks, "papers," likes and Tweets around mass shootings. IMHO, this is a chronic disease showing little decency, knowledge of human behavior, responsibility and basic civility. They go so far beyond what is healthy, necessary and societally beneficial as to be grotesque and prurient. They are "standing on the bodies of the slain" for reputational benefit and financial gain. Fact. 6. Lest I forget, which I already did, very few people want to research or acknowledge the data on defensive gun use vs offensive. The same goes for the instances of deterring crime by law abiding permit carries, often including off-duty law enforcement. All that to say, those interested in doing a small part will teach safety, societal and interpersonal decency and responsibility, pay close attention to their children and those for whom they caretake, and understand how they can build character through example, time with kids and being advocates for life and personal development in children and. adults.. BSA is a part of that (I think). I've been on the shelf for a long time, so I'm not expert. That's all for now. Gotta do some work.