Armymutt

No, he hasn't been registered since he was a Bear.

The school calendar seems to be a pretty good source for when the school year ends. By "came to us in December" I mean the dad sent us an email. They didn't show up until last weekend. They just turned in the application. By June, we are in our summer mode, which means no real meetings because everyone is on vacation for the summer. As long as the parents understand that there will not be a crossover ceremony, it's probably ok. I just can't see why you wouldn't want to hang out with Scouts your own age, rather than with a group where the oldest is in 3rd grade.

I have a parent who really wants his son to earn the AOL. Their pack folded a couple of years ago and they finally came to us in December 2022. The boy turns 11 in April. In order to meet the 6 month requirement, he'd have to be registered by now, right? I recommended that he just wait a couple of months and join the troop, but the dad isn't accepting of that idea. As of Feb 25, we will no longer have an AOL Den Leader, so it will be 100% on the dad to make sure everything gets done. I'm not sure how we get the 6 months in between now and the end of the school year on June 9.

You don't think that the same types of people complaining about the OA now won't be slightly offended at an organization that uses a major participant in sustaining and enhancing the colonization and oppression of Africans as a fulcrum? The UK removed a statue of him from the public space. BSA doesn't broadcast B-P's involvement in Scouting on its brochures. He's not at the forefront of anything. There has to be a reason for that. I'm betting that the folks in Irving would rather keep his name out of anything that isn't involved with die hard Scouters - like in Wood Badge.

The problem I see is that if you remove all the stuff that creates the proper setting and mood, you basically have something that isn't much different than the Calvin and Hobbes club. Realistically, the OA is basically network Scouting with a focus on service. It is the ceremonies that make it special. Think about Disney World. If you took out all of the scenery in the Peter Pan ride, would people spent 120 minutes in line to ride it? It's the suspension of disbelief that brings impact to the ideals of the OA as described in the ceremonies. They are basically parables. Jay Dunbar, who wrote the current Brotherhood ceremony, seems to be supportive of the ceremonies. Since he's from NC, I'm betting he's Cherokee. He's definitely American Indian. His proximity to the OA holds more weight on POV than others who have zero OA experience.

No one has been able to answer why the opinions of Indians who are against the OA are more valuable than those who are in favor of it. I'm pretty sure the guy who wrote the latest incarnations of the ceremonial texts is an Indian. Given his level of involvement in the OA as a youth and adult, I don't think he is against it.

So, Switzerland is in Europe, which is a little to the east of North America.

This is the big issue. If we are going to get rid of regalia, then we also need to ditch all AIA references - the names of lodges and chapters, the term "lodge", all the ceremonial texts, the names of many camps, and even the word "arrow". I can't think of another culture in North America that is associated with the use of arrows.

@InquisitiveScouter I wrote the budget based on discussions we had had previously in the Pack. There was no published budget prior to my arrival - at least nothing in the archives. Our budget is really more of a factoring of what we need to spend to buy advancement items, cover adult registrations, cover the unit recharter fee, PWD cars, and a bit for decorations. That gets divided between the current Scouts and everyone pays. No one else was writing it, so I did all the calculations necessary and wrote it. Everyone had ample opportunity to review it and provide feedback. As far as amending it, that seems out of the question. It would then require going back to all the parents and saying, "I know we said you'd only have to pay this much for your Scout to participate, but now you have to pay this much more." Not a pack builder. We could add it in next year, but it will still increase dues for no value added to the bulk of the Scouts. The AOL crossover isn't a surprise. The parents have had plenty of time to plan and resource this event. My son hits Webelos in May and I'm already planning the plaques and ceremony, as well as a gift for the DL. I'll then shop this to the parents and we'll work it into the fundraising target for each Scout. The funny thing is that they wanted to execute this event in Dec, yet they aren't even prepared in January. Frustrating.

I'm the CC now, so it's squarely in my realm. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thinks that it is up to the AOL parents to come up with any gifts they want to give their Scout. I've been asking for the cross over plan since September and this was the first time anyone mentioned something resembling a plan regarding this event. We're supposed to execute it in a month and a half! I think we're establishing a new precedent - the AOL DL and parents are responsible for planning the event. If it is garbage, it's on them. I spent the past 4 hours of my drive back to TN getting a rough outline in my mind of my son's AOL crossover in 2 years. Probably going to have to tamp it down a bit. Electrically fired smudge pots lighting up as someone reads off the points of the Scout Law might be a bit overboard.

What did your dues cover? We split ours up for convenience, but the only thing a December crossover will save is $14.30 to cover B&G, Rank Advancement Ceremony, and PWD costs. Everything else will still have to be paid since the Scout receives the full benefit of the program for the calendar year. It's not like they only get half their rank and pins, adult coverage and the benefits of having a unit.

Our pack established a budget in June. Some leaders failed to attend, but the proposed budget was sent out weeks before the meeting and feedback was solicited. None was received. The budget is used to determine the dues every Scout pays outside of the national and council fees. It buys required advancement, rank patches, pinewood derby cars, and covers decorations, refreshments, and any venue fees we plan to incur. At our leaders meeting yesterday, the AOL DL drops on us that the pack should buy the AOLs plaques for cross over at a cost of $45 plus tax and shipping each. The total AOL crossover budget is $35 to cover decorations. The bylaws specifically state that the pack only buys the required advancement items for Scouts, but that Scouts may use credit from fundraising to buy additional items related to Scouting. Obviously, I disagreed with this purchase, especially since 2/3 of the Scouts did no fundraising this popcorn season. Ironically, one of the parents of an AOL was very vocal in disapproving my recommendation that each Scout sell $1000 worth of popcorn in order to fund their Scouting year. The same parent, also a leader, told us that $35 was too little to budget for the AOL crossover and that he wasn't at the budget meeting. The implication was that it was done in secret. This is our first AOL crossover since 2021 and my first as a leader in the pack - I was a new ACM last time and the AOL den planned and executed the last one. We have a very mixed pack when it comes to financial capability, so my goal is to minimize cost of participation and maximize fundraising opportunities. I have a really hard time looking at a parent who has to swallow their pride and fill out financial hardship paperwork to waive national and council fees, and tell them that the dues we must charge is for the bare minimum to have a good program while we are padding the dues to purchase gifts. The argument for buying the plaques is that their eldest son received one when he crossed over. At the time, I had very little history in the pack with no involvement in the finances. When I took over as Cubmaster and persuaded (cajoled) my wife into being the committee chair, the pack had a negative balance, all advancement and pinewood derby cars were purchased by me, the district donated $450 toward recharter and the leader who wants to buy these plaques had to put in $300 of his own money. There was zero transparency in the pack finances. No one could produce a spreadsheet indicating how the money was spent. The pack sold $19k in popcorn in 2019. We sold about that much in 2021 and 2022 combined. As it stands, the pack is financially solvent, but it does not have much more than $1000 in surplus funds from abandoned accounts due to Scout departures and donations at the popcorn sales booths. The bank account cannot fall below $500 or we lose it. That $500 is not much of a cushion if we need to upgrade our Square readers, buy shade tents or tables for popcorn sales, or cover popcorn losses. Personally, I think that the AOL den should pay for their own plaques if that is what they want to do. It goes against my integrity as a Scout to lie to parents and tell them that the plaques are essential. Barring that, I'm open to assessing an additional dues fee to all Scouts who were present during popcorn sales to fund these plaques. They all had the opportunity to raise funds, versus the kids who just joined. That will increase the spring dues from $45 to $60. This is on top of the $156 that they just paid for recharter. Makes for a pretty hefty bill right after Christmas just to buy gifts. Even an Eagle Scout presentation box only costs $35 and my troop didn't cover that.

If no AI references, then it can't really be called the Order of the Arrow, can it? I don't know of any other group in American history that is associated with the use of arrows. I think the order has lost its way due to the influence of adults rather than the desire of the youth. It used to be something to aspire to. It was an exclusive club of sorts that only the best were elected to. Now, it's become just another thing between 1st Class and Star.

I was thinking about this today and why I received that award. I recall a dad and fellow Scouter outside of the OA being surprised that I was so active in the OA despite my oldest being a Bear. I suppose I do it partially out of enjoyment, a sense of duty, and, most importantly for me, so that my kids have it when they are old enough. More so, I hope to inspire the kids of today to ensure it is there for their kids. This is why I champion the ceremonies.

I'm geographically separated from my family and my Pack for work. I'm home for a couple of weeks and got to attend our Pack Meeting tonight. I asked the COR to come so we can go over rechartering. She's also the Chapter Advisor for our OA chapter. I noticed she was wearing her sash which struck me as odd, but I figured she must have either come from some function I wasn't tracking. She got up in front of the Pack - I figured she was going to make some announcement about recharter or some other COR business. She then called me up and told everyone how much of a role I had played in the chapter as an adult leader this year and that I was being awarded the Adult Leader of the Year award for the chapter. I was completely shocked. The plaque lists several names of leaders who I have heard lots about, yet never met. I still haven't quite recovered. Very honored to be recognized.

I'm not sure that Scouting would quite rise to the level of a vital issue confronting the Church and society. The closest is the Committee on Protection of Children and Young People. Seems like the best way to do that is to charter the unit and select leaders that you can control.

Reading a bit more into the thought process, there is the notion that if it is a charter agreement, the church has greater control over who the leaders are and the ideology of what is taught to the youth. There are some units out there who use Scouting to advance social ideologies that have nothing to do with Scouting and run contrary to church teachings. Chartering a unit ensures more control over the adults. A facilities use agreement gives zero control. Being sued is not the only thing the church is worried about. The safety of the kids in paramount. The church would have no say in the adult leadership, nor would they be required to attend the Safe Environment Training. SET makes YPT look like a joke. Better to have control or not have such an entity around.

One key difference is that there is no national Catholic authority. Each diocese can determine how they will proceed. Ours is continuing with business as usual.

Seems that the word "consecutive" would disqualify counting the canoe trip as non-long term camping. Unless they spent a night in a hard structure then you might be able to count three days on either side.

My other lodge appears to have done away with regalia. I think it's just laziness as no one seems to have reached out to a local tribe. I need to get active in it and find out what the deal is. Rumor is that the chapter advisor isn't really into it, but got pushed into the job.

Sounds like our lodge. We had to cobble together an ordeal team for 150 candidates. The lodge doesn't emphasize ceremonies. Instead, it's all about parties during the large gatherings. Who wants to be a ceremonialist when it means missing out on all the fun? I tried for almost 2 years to get a team in my chapter, but as the older ones aged out, no one behind them made a serious effort to fill the ranks.

I'm not sure what types of military people you guys are dealing with. Our district volunteers are probably close to 70% military - either active or retired - and runs really well. Granted, these are field grade officers and senior NCOs, so we are used to working in collaborative environments rather than coercive. The whole thing hinges on the notion that one signed up to serve an organization and sometimes that service is in the form of something uncomfortable or undesirable. Most of us are used to being handled those situations without the ability to walk away. It becomes second nature to focus on the mission and just do what is needed to accomplish it. Granted, this is also in a community that is typically a bit more...um, "more"...than your average military member.

I think the post implies that he keeps "a" hand in his pocket - probably the left one. Sets a bad example, but not quite as bad as I believe you are envisioning. I had to reread it the first time.

While definitely a worthy goal, it was also really short-sited. BP was already wealthy. Look at how difficult it is to get someone to volunteer to be a den leader. Do you think anyone has the volunteer time available to do the job needed at the SE level? My issue with SE pay is when the program and facilities don't match it. For example, I've seen one council where the SE makes about $200k. The council camp reservation is top notch. It is well suited for Cub Scouts and older programs. Half the reservation has sites that you can drive up to, unload gear, and camp in comfort. There are buildings with 4 flush toilets and four showers with sinks on both ends. Each site has two picnic shelters with tables maintained by the OA with electricity. There is another part of the reservation that is far more spartan with very little in the way of facilities. Another council I visited has an SE making a bit over $400k. The reservation is embarrassing. The dedicated Cub Scout area has several crowded camp sites with one filthy shack that has a couple of toilets and a sink with barely any water flow. There is no ability to drive up to the camp sites, so parents have to lug all the giant tents and cooking gear 150 yards down a hill to get to where they are going. The sites are on top of each other light an urban neighborhood. There is one nice building with a few showers and 4 toilets for the whole camp. I don't think that the SE is earning their pay in that council.

Slightly off topic, but if you are going to be the SM in less than 2 months and the SM is going to be gone for all of the meetings between then and now, why not do an immediate leadership change? There's 7 weeks between now and the end of the year.