InquisitiveScouter

14 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

It costs us about $4,000 per year between the Pack and Troop.

Yikes...one reason we left our last CO because room rental was costing our Troop around $700 a year.

Just now, ThenNow said:

Were your respective Councils keeping you, in the field, updated about these numbers? I seen news reports of Councils blowing off talk of "legitimate abuse claims" against them, even while claims were being filed, logged and publicly noted on sites like AIS.

The last time I asked about this...about 6 months ago, our SE said we had one claim they were "concerned about".

They have well over a hundred in the list...

2 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

The only message ... this bankruptcy only effects national.  It has no impact on the councils, units or COs.  A bit of info trickled out that we may pay into a fund but no real serious discussion of impacts.  Given that nearly every council said the same thing (you can see this in media feeds) I expect that was directed by National.

They may have been gaming this out, but they have not prepared us for any impact.

They are counting on the judge ruling the LCs as independent, but allowing them to "purchase" claims immunity coverage if they contribute to the bankruptcy-driven compensation fund?

I still don't see how they can make that argument/request seriously.  Doesn't pass the common sense, sanity, nor the "headlines" tests...

1 minute ago, ThenNow said:

Through the last two years, have you guys received any trickle down news or tactical planning from above? This whole operation, as illustrated by the non-plan Plan - little detail, no commitment from LC's, completely misreading or ignoring the other side's likely reaction -appears to lack any sophisticated risk management/tiered A, B, C contingency planning. Am I wrong? They have high powered big law with them so I don't get it. From a purely survival and business planning standpoint, it amazes me if they weren't "gaming this out" for a year or more.

Maybe they believe they are "too big to fail"?

4 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

I think one thing worth noting is the use of the phrase "alternative".

When the draft requirements leaked last November/December there weren't any "alternatives" to any of the requirements.

Also, and this came from my Council advancement chair, that as much as the focus of attention had been the DEI merit badge might raise concerns over critical race theory, Black Lives Matter, etc. that it was the issues related to sexual orientation that really threw some Councils, and especially COs, into a tailspin.

 

Wonder if any of them were reading our forum for the ideas we generated??  

45 minutes ago, qwazse said:

I don't think it amounted to a single additional super-activity from that lot.

Lol, but they  got some cool bling for their uniform!!  Doesn't that count??

7 minutes ago, 1980Scouter said:

I am am eagle scout and feel ashamed to be a part of this organization.

Remember, there really is no such thing as an "organization."  It was, and is, people.  There were people who made poor decisions (hindsight is 20/20) regarding the abuse that was happening.  Now, different people, the vast majority of whom had nothing to do with the matter, will pay for those poor decisions.  

I am not ashamed at having been a Scout, nor at being an Eagle Scout and Scouter now.

And, unless your conduct was questionable in the matter, why are you ashamed?

6 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

That is the extremism. I've talked to a lot of folks who are, were, and were never involves in scouting. None of them believe this is the BSA's fault as an organization. They believe we are getting a bad deal from ambulance chasing lawyers. So, whether some folks have lost faith the BSA, it certainly isn't "virtually no one". 

Barry

For the most part, people in our community love Scouts.  They love to see us in uniform.  They love to see us out and about, whether keeping youth active outdoors, or on a community service project.  Nearly every time...I mean EVERY time we are out, people come and talk to me either about their positive experience as Scouts, inquiring about what we are doing and why (the SPL's hate me because I always make him talk with these people  ), or thanking us for being a "force for good" in the world.

People get it...they know the value of good citizenship and character building.

19 hours ago, FaithfulScouter said:

Unfortunately The Boy Scouts of America has Scoutmasters who now tell their Scouts that they're 'not allowed' to go to shooting ranges.  One of our local Troops has an annual visit to a shooting range.  Another Troop does an annual  2nd Amendment trip for their 14 and older Scouts.  When my Scout suggested it to his PLC and one of the liberal ASMs, he was told that he didn't think they were allowed to go to gun ranges.  Uninformed or imposing his views on the Scouts?  What about the rifle and shotgun shooting merit badges that we offer?

Another Scout was a member of his school's riflery team.  When he talked about going to a range with a family member, one of the adult leaders took it upon himself to write to our COR about it, saying he was disturbed by it and that there's 'no place for gun discussions in Scouts'.   I wish I could say I was joking here but sadly I am not...

Sad...

We were, in the past few years, "shopping" for a new CO (another story).  Our local fish and game allowed us to meet there for a time.  They loved having our Scouts participate in their rifle and archery events.  But, a minority of parents would not let their Scouts participate, nor would let their Scouts attend any events (including meetings) on the property while the ranges were open.  I was not a leader at the time.  The Committee, at the time, had a discussion with those parents.  It came to the point where our unit had to find another meeting location or lose them.  We moved.

Later, when I became a leader, I asked some of the parents what was the issue?  At least five different families voiced a fear of guns and gun owners.  They were afraid their kid was going to get shot while attending there.  You cannot counter emotional responses with logic and facts, so I didn't bother.  The move had already been done.

The Scouts absolutely loved it while we were at that venue.

SMH

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

Besides the confirmed case of asset transfers in Tennessee, has this been happening elsewhere? From an attorney's perspective, I would've been advising it for years, not unlike a basic tax and estate planning review directs some clients to transfer identified assets to trust, whether revocable or irrevocable. With the assault on the ramparts since the $19M OR case, I would think asset protection measures would've exploded.

If I may, I also want to bring back one of my posts now moved to the spinoff thread on YPT and Other Stuff. This is regarding the continuation of Scouting and goes to financial and programatic viability of LC's if the full force of Scouting National is greatly diminished or gone:

I also wonder if it depends on the resources and current strength of those LC's (few?) that can fairly easily give some millions [to the Settlement Trust, be released] and still pivot on the strength of community support, leadership and donor base depth and breadth.

 i do not know how recent, but I know one restriction put on many BSA properties (including our council's) is a Conservation Easement.  A property right (restriction?) transferred with ownership that prevents development.  This would drive down the resale value, particularly for potential developers.

Of course, these easements are done with money changing hands.

7 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I've never heard of anyone suggesting that you cannot work on advancements outside of a Scouting activity.  This is a very conservative reading of the text in the G2SS.  Yes, the G2SS could be clearer, but it is not as stringent as is being suggested.

If two Scouts who are friends get together and work on a requirement together, no-one is going to tell them to stop or that the activity doesn't count.  The problem is that if two scouts who are friends get together and something happens, a lawyer is going to try to pull the BSA into the lawsuit.

Feels to me that we need some sort of better tort guidelines on what constitutes negligence in volunteer youth activities.  Perhaps something that says that the BSA has some responsibility for safety, but so too do the parents.  A parent who blindly trusts the BSA and it's volunteers without doing parental oversight is themselves negligent.   

Bingo

3 hours ago, yknot said:

Can I just clarify, are you talking about if the scout is out running by himself without two leaders present or are you talking about if he is running with a scout buddy without two leaders present? Or both? Also, who do you think would be liable if a scout went out for a run without supervision or if two scouts decided to go on a run together without supervision? Would it be the SM and the Committee or the MB Counselor? Finally, in your unit, how does this policy get discussed? If you are the SM, do you tell your unit that scouts cannot independently work on MB or rank requirements without two deep adult leadership, or does that come up during SM conferences? Do you refuse to sign off, or do you sign off and tell them not to do it again? 

We don't get in to such details.  A Scout may work on the requirements for things at any time.

Again, I am only pointing out the policy, as written, is ridiculously worded.

4 minutes ago, yknot said:

Neither my Council nor any of the three Councils near me follows your definition of a scout activity. Individual scouts routinely pursue achievements and MB components on their own. They are also free to buddy up with a friend from the same patrol, a different one, another troop, etc., to work on advancement. If boy A jogs down the street to meet boy B to go for a run for Personal Fitness, they do not schedule it with the SM and two leaders do not trail them down the road during the run. 
 

 

I agree with you completely.  I did not write the G2SS.  Yet, if anything were to happen on say, the Personal Fitness run, for example, I'd be willing to say BSA would not recognize it as a Scouting activity, nor cover any claims.

2 minutes ago, yknot said:

OK, well in my Council we can't do that. It's two deep at all times. We send four adults to summer camp. 

 

Under that definition, anything a scout is doing is then a scouting activity. A scout attends a town council meeting for Citizenship in the Community would then require two adult leaders to attend with him. Do your units send two leaders to town council meetings with scouts that are working on that merit badge? 

Now you know the silliness we are trying to point out

Just now, fred8033 said:

Yeah ... but you can take them to a 3000 acre summer camp and let them disappear for large blocks of time, hiking as far and long as they want, etc ... all without an adult within site of them. 

The rules are not always 100% clear.  Three scouts live down the street from each other.  One drives.  They normally drive everywhere together.  It's hard to prevent them from going food shopping for the campout until they have an adult with them.  

Totally agree...when in the woods, for example, I let some buddies (usually older Scouts) go on excursions as long as they tell me where they are going, when they will be back, and show me they have Scout essentials.

8 minutes ago, yknot said:

Also, just to answer the second part. I know scouts leave scouting because it's more fun to do things without it but it's not just having two adults along that makes it a drag. Many components of the program, from the uniforms that a lot of kids don't like to the homework like aspects of many of the rank requirements and badges to the long boring meetings and ceremonies also contribute to that. It's not just because of YP. That's my point. I understand it's part of it, but it's not the only reason why scouts is losing kids. and if we continue to get stuck on that like a canoe on a dry river bed, we're never going to get anywhere.  

 

Didn't say it was the only reason, just one of them...

16 minutes ago, yknot said:

Is that for real, lol? Is there an actual reference for that in YP or G2SS? I know I am not supposed to be the lone adult with any youth as you note but I have never heard that kids can't ever do anything together with a friend in a non patrol group to work on requirements and have it count. Scouts in our units do it all the time. 

For example, the Cycling MB clearly states use the BSA buddy system and it's not unusual for older scouts to meet up for a ride and work on this. Friends working on Personal Fitness at the same time will meet up for runs without towing two adults in their wake. Same with Sports MB., etc. etc.  

 

 

 

 

Yes, for realz...

G2SS specifically now states "Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings. "

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/

Scouts are not to do any activities without adult supervision.  This has been written for some time now...

Not just for overnighters...

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

 It does go to why someone would persevere in Scouting in the midst of repeated, long-term abuse, not tell an adult and fail to fight back or flee. Most of us froze, as I did. Extremely common with children who are abused.

Although I experienced abuse outside of Scouting, this all rings true...  I didn't want to tell anyone because I truly believed my situation would only get worse as a foster...  food, clothes, a roof, and some semblance of stability were the trade off.

The sad part was, years later, when I confronted the couple and some of the people they knew, I found out that their adult friends knew about and didn't do or say anything to stop it.  That "betrayal" hit me worse than the sexual abuse.

Fortunately, Scouting was the place I could go for safety.  Most of my mentors were veterans, and they helped me through some pretty tough times.

But, without proof, it was the word of a white trash teenager against a "well-respected" member of the community.  No one was willing to be my champion.

2 hours ago, yknot said:

So you are saying that once a kid joins scouts, he can no longer call up a scout friend and say 'let's go on a hike' unless two leaders accompany them?

That is correct, technically, if they want to do the activity to count for anything in Scouts.

I think what @qwazse was saying is that, youth are leaving Scouting to go do activities which we would call scouting.

For example, I know many older teenagers and young adults 16-21 (who are Scouts) around here who go rock climbing without adults.  They tell me it is "too much hassle."  I won't let my Scout go with them, but he has asked.

When he turns 18, he'll prob go without asking

Same for backpacking...my dear daughter, same age group, goes backpacking with her friends and college buddies.  They don't want older adults around.  I am pleased that she is often ribbed for being the only one who brought the first aid kit, map, compass...etc.  She is, after all, an Eagle Scout!!

Here's another one...although not specifically stated in the G2SS...in the BSA FAQ you will find:

Q. Does this mean my son cannot have a sleepover if I am the only adult present?

A. Yes, if any of the children other than your own child is a Scout, we strongly encourage all adults to use the Barriers to Abuse in and out of Scouting.  

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/yp-faqs/

-----------------

Horse hockey...if my son wants to camp in the backyard with his buddy, who happens to be a Scout, and his parents are OK with it, it's just fine with me.  This one is beyond the pale.

BTW, if they say "Yes" and then say "strongly encourage", isn't that mixing the message.  Also, why should it only apply if the other kid is a Scout? SMH

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

I applaud your fast-and-loose interpretation of YPT:

If the scout calls his buddy without two registered adults online, it is no longer a Scouting activity. If a hike does not include two registered adults, it is, by definition, no longer a Scouting activity. If they conspire with the rest of their patrol to go fishing early in the morning on opening day without two registered adults, it is no longer a Scouting activity.

You mention work that would count toward advancement. If a scout does it in the presence of 0, 1, or 50 registered adults, it still counts toward advancement -- except when it explicitly must be "under the auspices of BSA" ... as opposed to that night before opening day when his buddies camped independently by that sweet bend in the stream. But that is my point precisely, the majority of scouts worldwide aren't interested in doing stuff for advancement. They are interested in fulfilling the vision of the pinnacle scouting experience of hiking and camping independently with your mates. Simply put, by YPT standards, the majority of youth scouting is no longer a Scouting activity. Therefore, American youth must leave Scouting to actually scout, and they do ... in droves.

In a sense, BSA over-sells Eagle and chaperoned HA bases: because it can no longer sell the vision of the pinnacle scouting experience.

That (and also that Eagle was not explicitly a youth award) is why BSA amassed membership through the 1960's. That is also why predators began to target such organizations ... it was almost easier than getting a teacher's degree or grooming one's young family member.

So, we are offering an opportunity to be awarded (notice I did not say earn) BSA's trademarked Eagle Scout product, under supervision of more than one adult?  ☹️

Just now, TMSM said:

My son actually brought this Nationall Outdoor Award Meda idea to me (SM) and said this is what his goal was. He worked with our Awards Chair to help him understand what each segment was and encouraged other scouts to go for as many segements as possible. As an older, 16, scout it gave him a reason to go to summer camp and to look outside for training. Many of the requirements come from earning a MB and then participating in those activities but the other parts were hard for him to complete. WFA - 16 hour training was hard to schedule aroung sports and troop activities. LNT train the trainer was really hard to fine during COVID. Our council dropped these classes 4 years ago and other opportunities were either too far to drive or were cancelled. He did finally get this all completed and on hiw own. Our CoH is in 2 weeks he will be awarded the NOA medal so I am both a proud dad and SM.

Some of his stats:

Miles hiked - 600

Nights camped  - 151

Hours of Aquatics - 106

Conservation Hours - 62

High Adventures - 5

This is a great award and should be promoted more to get scouts to do what scouts do.

I am trying to find out how many scouts have earned this medal - any ideas how to find this number?

In your council, call, and very nicely ask your registrar.  They can only give you the council number though.

National, ask Bryan on Scouting

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/contact/

They have contacts at National that might give an answer this year, and "Bryan" might post a piece on it.

6 minutes ago, MattR said:

Unfortunately, most councils are broke and all they see is money. That seems to be the root of all the problems.

+1

8 minutes ago, qwazse said:

rainbow trout with cashews in teriyaki sauce 4.0

Mine does almonds...maybe I'll try cashews!!

LOL

So, a synchronized event, because others must participate together at the same time??

Basically a webinar??

How long was long the course?

4 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

On the topic of YP quality, I would like Council to summary report on YP incidents and actions of past year at recharter and during training. Not necessarily names or units unless publicly reported.

Doesn't have to be at the production level of Frank Capra Why We Fight but same idea.

My $0.02,

I asked for the same kind of info on accidents and was told no way, no how.  They feared releasing too much detail and exposing themselves to some kind of liability.  I thought that was BS-A.

National does release accident summaries to help.  I used to brief some of these at Roundtable.  For other reasons, I have been removed from Roundtable presentations

They could put the same thing on the web page for YPT stuff...

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/incident-report/incident-reviews/