Jump to content


  • Content Count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won


Posts posted by InquisitiveScouter

  1. 2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

    Youth sharing tents must be no more than two years apart in age.

    That's another one that brings out the legalists...and you wouldn't believe the discussions I have heard on this (actually, you probably would)...

    Scouter 1: "12 years, 364 days old cannot tent with 15 years, zero days old.  15 minus 12 is 3!  But on his birthday tomorrow, he can! (15 minus 13 is 2)"

    Scouter 2: "Oh no, tomorrow, he is 15 plus one day, minus 13 plus zero days is 2 years and a day...no tenting together!"

    Me: "What about Leap Years?" and run away smh...

    • Haha 2
  2. It is also important to note the confusing verbiage in many of BSA's publications...

    For example, the Age Guidelines for Tool Use...


    National goes through all kinds of contortions here...it names these as "guidelines", and then says they are "recommendations", but, rightly defers to manufacturer literature...

    "Manufacturers’ literature and age and skill restrictions shall supersede the recommendations on the chart below."

    But then does a detour and uses the word "shall", which is prescriptive, rather than a guide or a recommendation...

    "If there is a conflict, leaders shall follow the most restrictive guidelines."

    This does not instill faith or trust in their ability to issue clear guidance.

    And many of these fly in the face of good judgement... I mean, really? To use a 4-wheeled cart (aka, a wagon), a Scout must be over 14 years of age?  This is downright laughable, and I have seen hundreds (literally!!) of Scouters blow this one off entirely... 

    Wanna be legalistic?  Look at the chart...I guess a 3-wheeled cart would be fine? 


    How about a five wheeled cart?

    Having a military background, I am steeped in some simple language from all military regulations.  Here's an example from one...

    1.3. Key Words Explained.

    1.3.1. ―Will" and "shall" indicate a mandatory requirement.

    1.3.2. ―Should" indicates a preferred, but not mandatory, method of accomplishment.

    1.3.3. ―May" indicates an acceptable or suggested means of accomplishment.

    1.3.4. ―NOTE" indicates operating procedures, techniques, etc., considered essential to emphasize.

    1.3.5. ―CAUTION‖ indicates operating procedures, techniques, etc., which could result in damage to equipment if not carefully followed.

    1.3.6. ―WARNING‖ indicates operating procedures, techniques, etc., which could result in personal injury or loss of life if not carefully followed.

    1.4. Deviations and Waivers. Do not deviate from policies... except when the situation demands immediate action to enhance safety. The Pilot in Command (PIC) is vested with ultimate mission authority and responsible for each course-of-action they choose to take.


    This manual provides broad guidance for aircraft operations. It is consolidated to help aviators to identify and synthesize potentially applicable standards and procedures, and to understand application and waiver authority. General guidance cannot address every situation, therefore, ... commanders should provide additional guidance further supporting safe aircraft operations. In the absence of specific guidance, aircrew will seek clarification and use sound judgment.

    It's so simple...yet so difficult ;)


    • Upvote 2
  3. 19 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

    I will tell you that the SM of the most frustrated unit in my area (as In "Friends of Scouting will come to this unit over my dead body." frustrated) never complained to council and just makes snide comments when we see each other.

    I addressed concerns to our council...FOS heavy-handed tactics, FOS presenters not being able to answer questions about where the money goes, lack of council transparency about where the money goes, poor camp facilities, etc.   After our Key 3 meeting with council reps concerning why we, each of the Key 3, did not wish to have an FOS presentation in our unit, I was removed from District and Council Committees by the SE.  Without a phone call or any coherent explanation to date...had to find that out from other volunteers who run those committees...

    Not authentic ;)

    P.S.  Our council now imposes the $60 per Scout fee, and has eliminated unit FOS presentations...

    • Sad 1
  4. 2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

    There is no reason why a unit leader or anyone cannot email Mosby, their Council, or ANYONE.

    Sorry, not the case...if you have a legitimate question, and you know your SE/local staff isn't giving a coherent answer, and you email National, it will bite you right in the keister.

    National views you as being solely under the authority of your local SE.  So, when you conduct events in surrounding councils, you still fall under the interpretation of rules/policies as issued by your local SE, not the hosting council...unless that council is MORE restrictive.

    If you point out the disconnect, you get skewered.  They shoot the messenger...

    I have experienced this personally.  And I know others who also have...

    I will welcome them and offer them coffee, but the conversation will be guarded and carefully worded.  Dare I even say evasive...too much scar tissue here, brothers ;)

    • Thanks 1
  5. 22 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

    The 11 year old Patrol was more of a Webelos program with the ASM really acting like a DL, and the Troop Guide acting more like a DC.

    This is my perception of how this works in many Troops. 

    Most of the time, a new parent (probably one who was a DL) takes on ASM, and continues the Cub Scout model...this is not good...

    For us, we assign an ASM (who knows how to back off), and let the TG show them the ropes from Crossover (Feb/March) through their first few camping trips, PLCs, and a Summer Camp.  Once the NSP "gets the program," usually around August/September, we have the TG back off and let the NSP operate independently.  In October, they have their first Patrol-only camping trip (scheduled in two weeks, hooray!!).

    We assign new parent ASM's to an older Patrol, so that Patrol can teach them how Scouting is done ;) Sadly, most parents don't want to deal with other people's kids...they want to "do Scouting" only with their own kid.  I haven't really found a way to change that thinking, yet...other than exposure over time to what real Scouting is, and trying to set the example...

  6. 2 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

    I congratulate her for Earning her Eagle but I have a bad taste in my mouth by their statement of her earning the requirements basically before the girls were allowed to join....She will be part of the class vs. leading the class IMHO.

    I do appreciate the fact that BSA announced they will not recognize a "First to Earn."   Even so, there is a good deal of the "She is the First!!" syndrome this going around...here, and in articles I have seen.  BSA cannot control what the media writes.  My daughter has delayed a bit, for various reasons...she might make the Inaugural Class cut-off date, but we don't care about that.  As long as she gets it, that's all that matters to her.  She is at college now, and with all the Covid-19 restrictions, she has some extra time for merit badge work via Zoom.  And she is one of the best Scouts I have seen ;)  Really knows her stuff, and prides herself on diligence and skill (versus appearance and fluff) and will most likely finish her Venturing Ranger award (🤞)!!!

    Congressional Award Gold Medal in 2018, Summit in 2019.  Hope you don't mind a proud Dad bragging on his daughter!  When she finishes Eagle, I will feel like Master Yoda...

    "We are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters."



  7. 12 hours ago, George said:

    Do any of your Troops meet less frequently so that Patrols can meet more frequently?  Is two Troop meetings a month enough?  What about only one Troop meeting?

    Not yet...but that is the goal/vision...currently, we do camp less frequently as a Troop so the Patrols can camp more as a Patrol.  We are currently at one Patrol camping event per quarter.  It is usually the adult support that is the limiting factor.  The older Scouts really enjoy this, as they get a break from "supervisory" duties and get a chance to just hang out with their buddies.  It seems to refresh them so they are more engaged on the Troop camping trips when the younger Patrols (yes, we use age-based patrols) need their guidance.

    • Upvote 1
  8. 3 minutes ago, qwazse said:

    An inauthentic first class scout achieves skill demonstration with no concern for mastery.

    I hate "one and done."  It is a cancer eating away at the outdoor program... for the youth and the adults...

    Our long-standing Troop policy (since before we joined) was that Scouts over First Class could sign off requirements up to First Class.  When reviewing some Scouts recently, we discovered widespread pencil-whipping of requirements by a few older Scouts.  I questioned them individually, and they admitted it.  All had been signing off one or more requirements that they had no current working knowledge of...first aid, navigation, woods tools and knots, etc...

    So, moratorium on that policy.  But the damage was done...it has taken time to rebuild some basic skills into the "corporate knowledge".  The results are beginning to show...small things...knots tied correctly on tents, tarps, and lashings...Scouts actually bringing their Scout essentials on an outing...Scouts studying their Handbooks because they know that is what they will be tested on...dishes are cleaned (nearly) after every meal...Patrols actually have Patrol flags, yells, and a group identity/esprit de corps...and adults learning the skills because, for the interim, only they are signing off requirements.  And, the most common refrain at camp from adults is now "Did you ask your Patrol Leader?"  (You have to train the adults, too!!!)

    I am trying to get them back to the point where the vision is realized...Scouts teaching Scouts, and signing them off...a work in progress...

    Anybody else out there look into this closely and find something different??


    • Like 1
  9. @TMcL you are on target...effects of almost any conservation initiative can be expanded to a planet level...

    "common to more than one country" is fluff to make it more "World Conservation"-y

    Flip the question...what conservation projects' affects could not be extended to be common to more than one country??  I can't think of any. 

    Perhaps the purpose of this is to get the Scout to see small local efforts as having a far-reaching impact.  (Think globally, act locally?)

    • Thanks 1
  10. 2 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

    if two units decided to camp together why would these standards apply?  Not sure I'm following your logic.

    ♦ Q: If my camp is cancelled, can my unit get together with other units and have our own camp?

    No. Chartering organizations play an important role in the program and activities for their chartered units. Chartering organizations promote well-planned unit program for the units they charter and encourage their units to have active outdoor unit programs. Chartering organizations are not authorized to plan, promote, or deliver programs for units outside of their charter.

    It is the role of the council to plan long-term or resident camps and the role of councils or districts to plan camporees and other outings during the year that give youth an opportunity to test their knowledge and skills in competitive events with other troops and/or patrols.

    When units with different chartered organizations do activities together, this becomes a district or council event and requires council approval. In fact, some states require such activities to be licensed.

    Should your troop, crew or ship decide to do a long-term camping program for their own unit (Cub Scouts units are prohibited from this activity) please note that the Scouter Code of Conduct and relevant program safety and training requirements are still in place, e.g., Safe Swim Defense, Hazardous Weather, Wilderness First Aid, etc.


    As this is not printed anywhere I can find other than in FAQ (can anyone please help?) I'd say get forgiveness vs. permission...

    I think they may have written this with full knowledge they'd be implementing their NCAP policy...

    Another aside...if both CO's agree, and provide leadership for their own units, I say "Giddyup!"

    • Thanks 1
  11. 6 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

    disbanding Scouting

    Although, they will only be disbanding the corporation known as the Boy Scouts of America.  Scouting is a movement that must be intellectually separated from the BSA.  Scouting will go on, and I intend to be one who keeps it going, with or without the BSA.  Hence my moniker...

  12. 1 minute ago, TAHAWK said:

    Meaning they are a program of the CO, not an entity at all, contrary to what the motion asserts.  Not a possible debtor/defendant.  Not a legal "person."

    Ahhh...re-read, please...a) BSA national, b) local council, c) chartering org...

    Units are not mentioned, as they are not legal entities...

    • Upvote 1
  13. 1 minute ago, TAHAWK said:

    None was a legal entity under state or federal law at the time. 

    Units are never legal entities...that is the purpose of the chartering organization.  But I know you knew that!

    You could incorporate a unit, but it would not really be part of the BSA.  The legal entity you created could charter a BSA unit that would have the exact same membership as the incorporated entity.  But, the entity must have principal officers and a board which can, potentially, be held liable for actions of the corporation.

  14. 9 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

    In addition, the Rosters will help the TCC determine which sponsoring or chartered organizations may be implicated in abuse claims and whether such organizations have insurance policies available to satisfy the abuse claims.

    23. Abuse survivors may have a legal claim against at least three different entities recognized in the BSA Charter and By-laws and its Rules and Regulations: (a) the BSA; (b) a “local council” that managed all Boy Scouting units (e.g., a Boy Scout Troop or a Cub Scout Pack) in a defined geographic area; and (c) a “chartering organization”, such as a school or church, that operated a particular Boy Scout unit in conjunction with the Local Council and BSA.


  • Create New...