The best way to approach it is two view this as two different pots of money.  The fundraised pot, which is restricted in its use, and the parent-provided pot, which is unrestricted.  Money for Scout-related items always comes out of the fundraised pot first, until it is empty. 

Anything left over in the fundraised pot at the end of a Scout's tenure stays with the Troop.  Parent-provided money goes back to the family, no questions asked.

If there are any monies left over when a Scout leaves the unit, we let the Scout determine the disposition.

Most of the time, they ask to transfer it to another Scout in need, or make it a "donation" to the general Troop fund.

BTW, these monies can be used to support funding for Eagle Projects!

1 minute ago, Spatulate said:

Got it, thanks! Wish the money issue was less complex! I also wonder if different units have varying policies on this topic (?) 

Yes, different units will just blow this kind of nitnoid stuff off...

Again, for me, it's an integrity issue.

30 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

So, I have this question:

Parent of a Scout, in their first 2 years of scouting , pay $600 for camp fees-things which are permissible to be paid by scouting account funds.

Year 3, scout gets up to speed and raises $250 through unit fundraising activities.

Scout then uses $150 for more camp fees, then quits Scouting leaving a $100 balance in the Scout's scout account.

Can the remaining balance of $100 in Scout's scout account be refunded to parents to partially reimburse them for the $600 in camping fees they paid during Scout's first two years of tenure, leaving them with only a $500 parental outlay?

Note, had Scout earned $250 through fundraising activities right off the bat, those funds would have been used first before parents paid out of their pocket, and parents would have only spent $500.

Mathematically, the result is the same.

The only difference is the timing of the additions to the Scout's scout account.

@SiouxRanger, yes, it's the timing that ties your hands here.

We use a policy of all fundraising monies come out of the account first to pay for things.  Any parent--provided monies still in the account can be paid out back to the family.

Again, no one is going to come looking.  It's an integrity issue for me.

13 minutes ago, Spatulate said:

My understanding is that one cannot cash out a scout account because that would be considered income by the IRS. IOW, no refunds.

 

Not quite, @Spatulate, see above.  If it is the parents' money, then it is the parents' money...

1 hour ago, Spatulate said:

If a scout is dual-enrolled, what happens to funds in their individual Scout Account from the first troop they joined?

We are phasing out individual Scout Accounts by the end of this year, but we have two scout unit members who have also just joined another unit in a different District and plan to hold simultaneous membership. They will be doing their meetings and advancement with the other troop.

We are temporarily chartered with Council, having lost our Elks charter, but hope to charter elsewhere soon.

Do we send checks to the new unit to transfer their money Do we keep funds in our unit accounts? Don’t funds belong to the CO?

Help and info are much appreciated!

p.s I had not heard of Scouts belonging to two units simultaneously…

This is my first question for the forum and I’m sorry if I put it in the wrong place. Please advise if I need to move it

Great question!

Scouts can belong to as many units as they wish.  It is called "multiple membership", and they only have to pay one fee to National/Council.

But, as you have discovered, one unit must be "primary."  This is the unit that must pay the membership fee, insurance, council service fee, etc, and must also be the primary for advancement reporting to eliminate confusion and redundant submissions.

Now, to your money question...  The money does not technically belong to the Scout.  It is being held on behalf of the Scout by the Chartering Organization.  There are several IRS rules governing this. In a nutshell, two specifically apply:

1.  Any funds raised for the purposes of Scouting must only be used for Scouting.  That is, your unit may not use the fundraised monies to buy things for Scouts that are not directly related to Scouting.  You can pay for Summer Camp, uniforms, camping fees, etc, buy you may not buy personal boots, backpacks, a birthday cake, etc...

2.  Since the CO technically owns all fundraised monies, make sure they are OK with the transfer.  I know we talking minor amounts, but you do need to keep them in the loop.  I cannot imagine them saying 'No", but they could.

Other issues...    A.  never write a check or give fundraised money directly to the Scout.  Although the IRS doesn't really care about you and your unit account, the principle is that when you give the Scout money directly for their efforts at fundraising, it counts as income.     

B. never use monies fundraised by the Scout to pay for things for the Scout's parents; membership fees, camping fees, etc.  Parents can participate in fundraisers and establish a Scout account, and now you can track that in Scoutbook.

If the monies were raised under your old CO, then just clear it with them.  Write a check to the new Troop, put the Scout's name in the Memo line, and Bob's your uncle...

50 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

rage

???

1 minute ago, Spatulate said:

🤪 Is it that obvious? 🤣

I’ve got questions and need answers which seem hard to come by elsewhere.. 👍🏻
 

 

Well, you will find them here.  Much quicker, and more informed than from your local council, too, I'd bet 😛

32 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

Disconnect between local-national and volunteer-professional has been vanishing.  I am sure you have good reasons to say some of these things.  We all form views based on experience.  My experience is that there is not much disconnect across the movement, whether it is the local-national or volunteer-professional issue.  I am a dual unit leader (Troop and Ship) and yet have very productive conversations with volunteers and professionals across all levels of the movement.  Of course I restrict my communications to matters appropriate to the person I am conversing with and watch the frequency.  I am also broadly known as a person who performs.  I am known as a person who offers to “fix things” rather than complain.  Those are just my approaches, but my calls are always welcomed and returned.  They respect me as much as the mother I just Emailed to share I just arranged a scholarship for her son.

Now is a great time for people to re-evaluate these issues and how they personally operate.  We are moving from survival mode to work-out mode, all on the way to normalcy in a couple of years.  The only logical way to behave during this is to be flexible, positive and helpful.  We can all do this and will be better for it.

Great thoughts!  I should forward those to our local council.

I, too, am a 

33 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

a person who offers to “fix things” rather than complain.

But, rather than helping me to fix things, our council SE asked me for money, without a thought or recognition for how valuable my time is.  And when I said no, and did not support FoS, he removed me (and others) from our District and Council positions.  There is more to the story, of course, but, I tell you, my behavior throughout the events, has been courteous and professional towards them, without reciprocity.

I even asked him on the phone what it would take to restore the relationship.  His reply, "Support FoS."  Again, I refused.  So, I pour my efforts into supporting our unit and other units.  Because we have no DE, no functioning Commissioner Corps, and a camp in shambles....

I literally spend 30-40 hours per week volunteering for Scouting.   Please spare me the off-handed indictment, brother.

20 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

If not, the best way to recruit the next volunteer is to walk away and leave a vacuum to fill. 

This is a sad truth.  Best of luck on your golfing endeavors!  Watch out for the gophers!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g79mLV9b30c&ab_channel=Michael

27 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

had to teach herself

These are the people worth holding on to!!!

27 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

When I went thru PDL-1, everyone was suppose to go through either the Exploring Leader Basic Training or the Exploring Leader Basic Training Self Study. I think I was the only one who actually did the training because the instructor said "as long as you read the info, your good, we don't need to go over it." 

SMH

27 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

On the local level, I wore a Sea Scout uniform to an event, and the SE wanted to know what I was wearing.

SMH x 2

22 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

 They really thought the BSA could impact the outlook of young adults.

They could, but there is an ENORMOUS disconnect between the local professional side of the house and the volunteer side of the house.  A connection from National to local volunteers is non-existent, but that is, I believe, as it should be.

I know we volunteers are valued at the grass roots hometown level (the youth and parents we serve).  And I know that we are not valued by my current local council.  The ONLY impact you are going to have, on a large scale, with ANY youth, is THROUGH THE ADULT VOLUNTEERS.

@Spatulate, welcome!

We could start by enforcing the laws we have on the books...across the board, or get rid of them! 

Then, reinvigorate our system of mental health hospitals. https://www.nri-inc.org/our-work/nri-reports/tracking-the-history-of-state-psychiatric-hospital-closures/

Then, we need velocity in justice.  Justice delayed is justice denied.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_delayed_is_justice_denied#

I, for one, have lost a great deal of faith in our justice system.  

I have lost faith in our Congress.  Are your Representative and Senators really "representative"??  Are they working to make our country better?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_members_of_the_United_States_Congress_by_wealth

I have lost faith in our Executive Branch...  selective enforcement of laws erodes public trust.

If we, the people, cannot trust the basic institutions we have put in place to secure our rights, then...

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute DespotismOligarchy, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

https://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/is-america-an-oligarchy

Before this happens, expect unrest and violence to increase.

Now add economic hardship as gasoline on the fire...

I spent 26 years under an Oath to defend the Constitution.  Wanna know why veteran suicide is at astronomical rates?  Many feel their service and sacrifice is wasted, seeing at how we act as a nation.

https://www.mentalhealth.va.gov/docs/data-sheets/2021/2021-National-Veteran-Suicide-Prevention-Annual-Report-FINAL-9-8-21.pdf

Think about that this Memorial Day.

5 hours ago, fred8033 said:

It's not BSA.  It's the legal environment in this country.  

??  Would you elaborate, please?

13 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

I agree that the corps of adults in these specialized programs really believe in the programs and bring their professional expertise to them.  They are typically active or retired military or law enforcement people who are encouraged by their professions to be involved.  This has not really changed -- the Skippers of the Sea Scout Ship of my youth were WWII combat vets from the Navy and Coast Guard who belonged to our local Coast Guard Auxiliary and veterans organizations.   Now that Sea Scouts is the official youth program of the Coast Guard Auxiliary (which so far operates 27 Ships) I can see that potentially taking off in a big way.  Law enforcement and the military are in tight cooperation with these specialized programs for very good reasons.  They provide very stable COs.  The current day "stand alone" version of Venturing does not have these factors going for it.  If our counsel asked me to go form ten 'stand alone" Venturing crews, it would be a really tough job.   

  

This is where the BSA is missing out.  There is a corps of military veterans out there who would love to serve as Scout leaders.  BSA should be actively recruiting them.

Totally understand that Scouting is not military training!  That message must always come through loud and clear.

But, every skill I ever learned in Scouting made me a better leader, officer, pilot, or whatever job I happened to be doing at the time.

IMHO, these should also be the primary leaders in the corporate structure of BSA.

Remember where BP got his ideas for the program.  And I heard a great quote the other day from another Scouter...

"If it wasn't for the Siege of Mafeking, I'd have a lot of extra time on my hands." 😜

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mafeking

5 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

My personal leaning is that Venturing can best be positioned as a “Patrol” attached to a Scouts BSA Troop.

Yeah, your number three option seems the best...

Separate male and female patrols until they reach a certain age and rank  (my gut says 14 and First Class, kind of like the requirement for Scouts to join and continue working on advancement.)  Then combine into Venturing Patrol (name isn't important, but could be kept for legacy...)

5 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

What Keeps Sea Scouts and Law Enforcement Exploring Running So Well?  COVID, the bankruptcy, and other operational and program deformations have severely impacted Venturing, but Sea Scouts and Law Enforcement Exploring seem to just continue on with sufficient numbers of young adult and adult members.  There is not much in the way of needed BSA professional time or financial investment.  What are the factors about these teen-focused programs that have quietly kept them operating for decades?

Adult volunteers who know what they are doing, and have a passion for the specific program.

Think about who would be the majority of adult volunteers for these programs...  What type of person or background comes to mind??

4 hours ago, elitts said:

I found a 40s or 50s BSA published book of "Games to play" that included things like "Chicken Fights", and the game where you try and slap your opponent's hand before they can pull it away.  I bet the BSA would disavow those too if ever asked about them. 

Huh.  I wonder if Red Rover is still kosher?  I loved that game as a kid.

Or British Bulldog!!

43 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Anyone else having trouble getting on the Zoom hearing? It's never happened to me before this.

They are on to you!!👀

4 minutes ago, ramanous said:

There's an argument to be made that any troop is better than no troop.

No.  No, there isn't. 😛 

A poorly run Troop is the worst advertisement for Scouting.  It undermines everything we are about.

And yes, there are lots of them.

54 minutes ago, elitts said:

It's amazing what billion or trillion dollar endowment funds will do for you when it comes to self-insuring.

At $691B in endowments total across US, that's a heck of a lot of moolah.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=73#:~:text=At the end of fiscal,the total was %24675 billion.

And at $41B endowment, Harvard is richer than about 66 countries in the world...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_wealth

6 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

In which case the answer to the parents is, "I suppose Scouting is not the activity you are looking for. Good luck with finding an activity which fits your needs." 

 

 

I ask parents:

"How many times have you cut yourself?"

"How many times have you gotten splinters?"

"How many times have you gotten stung by a wasp?"

"How many times have you gotten a sunburn?"

"How many times have you gotten into an argument?"

"How many times have you had to deal with someone who is acting like a jerk?"

etc, etc, etc,  They begin to get the right idea that they cannot (and should not) protect or shield their kid from all of life's risks.

"Well, it's going to happen here, and probably a little more.  But, we watch them closely until they can learn to take care of themselves and work well in a group.  We teach them how to avoid injuries and treat them.   And, we provide a leadership and learning laboratory [camping] where the relationship consequences aren't that serious now, so they'll learn to work through issues with their peers for the future.  Sometimes, it takes time to get to that point."

And if they cannot learn to behave themselves, they will not be welcome here.  We have dismissed Scouts from the Troop in the past for inability to control their behavior.

10 minutes ago, PACAN said:

I knew it!  It's that pesky Beaver Patrol!

I used to be an Eagle, and a good ol' Eagle, too!

(But, as an honorary Beaver, I did some dodging of inflated rubber spherical objects!)

10 minutes ago, PACAN said:

9 minutes ago, elitts said:

The problem with "Calling National" is that they are only giving you the answer from the perspective of the "official" Youth Protection Violation report policy.  So from that perspective they gave you a technically correct answer, but still didn't actually address your issue.  Your CC isn't trying to conduct an official "Youth Protection Violation Investigation", they are doing a concurrent examination of the situation to see if immediate troop level action is required.

National has only one button to push when it comes to Troop level leadership; they can pull a Scouter's membership.  National doesn't have the ability to remove him as Scoutmaster while leaving him as a registered Scouter, or limit his behavior or tell him he can't make decisions about Class B uniforms.  They can only decide if his behavior warrants kicking him out of the program.

By contrast, your Troop committee DOES have the ability to do all of those other things, which is likely why they wanted to meet to discuss the issue.  And there is NOTHING about the the Youth Protection report you filed that says a troop can't also independently review an adult's actions and respond in addition to whatever the local council decides to do.

 

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!!!

1 minute ago, Cecille25 said:

she was told

I find people often use the passive voice to hide...

I always then ask the direct question, "Who told you?" If they can't give me name or point of contact, I ignore them.  If they give me a name, I call the source (eliminate the middleman) and get the story straight.  Nine times out of ten, what person A said and what person B heard are two entirely different things.

11 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I know zip-a-dee-doo-dah about the STEM program. Please suffer me one question and one thought. Once the latter is out there I will be at my quota for the day.

1. Is there anything offered in the schools or elsewhere that's attached to an outdoor and character building organization like Scouts? 

2. For an entire segment of the population STEM and bookish things are what they do, at least in part. I raised 2 boys and 2 girls. One of each would do traditional Scouting, though they didn't for obvious reasons. The other two can and did "light" outdoor adventures but an all OUTING scenario was daunting and pretty much undoable. My youngest son has since become and enthusiast, but was a bookish boy (excessively), loved Legos, solo sports like Fencing, Archery and Wrestling and did a lot of deep thinking. One of the twins has CMT Disorder, which stands for Charcot-Marie-Tooth Disorder. She was supposed to be in a wheelchair by the time she was a teenager. She has beaten all the odds and has and continues to travel the world. From my limited understanding, something like STEM could be the honey that draws them in, opens them to a world of the outdoors and slides in character building, traditions, camaraderie, tinfoil dinners, Dutch oven cobbler, knife skills, lashing, reflector oven biscuits and dodgeball. Oops. I said that which is verboten. Please don't ban me...  

I would like to know more about STEM, but do understand the point you're making.

/s/ I.G. Nernt

So, the BSA has two or three different threads for STEM, all undergirded by the highlighting of STEM related topics throughout the Handbooks, Awards, and Advancements...

https://bsastemnova.org/#:~:text=Officially the NOVA program was,of BSA from its creation.

1.  Cub Scouts, Scouts, Venturers, Sea Scouts:  a series of STEM based awards called the NOVA and Supernova Awards

https://www.scouting.org/stem-nova-awards/awards/about-nova/

2.  A program with separate units called STEM Scouts

https://stemscouts.scouting.org/

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/05/11/understanding-the-difference-between-stem-in-scouting-and-stem-scouts/

3.  And the not-so-strong push for Explorer Units to be STEM career-based

https://www.exploring.org/activity-library-category/us-department-of-education-career-clusters/stem/

I am a NOVA and Supernova counselor...have been since inception (10 years ago??)  I have had one Cub Scout come to me to earn the award.  I did push it on our Webelos AOL den when my son was there... after the den had finished AOL program in late Nov, they had "nothing to do" (LOL) so I went through the program with the den. 

Scouts are interested, but have little to no bandwidth for ANOTHER PROGRAM 😜

P.S.  Supercool bling!!!

https://www.scoutshop.org/nsearch/?q=Nova