InquisitiveScouter

9 hours ago, mashmaster said:

I did notice very much that many units just stopped and refused to adapt during the pandemic.  Our Ship was able to adapt and grow over the last year.  We did lots of things different from the past and we try to be open with the youth and parents for creative solutions. 

All units are as strong as the amount of volunteers they have.  We are constantly in the situation of having to get enough adults to go camping and sailing.  It is a heavy burden on a few people, that I fear will stop being able to help out.  We have had to cancel events because of not enough adults.  That hurts the youth.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This

Welcome to the forum!  Much easier to remain anonymous here, and you can DM those you wish to have a private convo with.

Enjoy the campfire!

At the Troop, we cancelled one camping trip, and did about 4 meetings and two PLCs on Zoom.  As soon as it was warm enough, we had all meetings outside, and did one-per-tent camping trips.  Even designed and did our own Summer Camp.

The life of all Scout units is bound up more in the adult volunteers and parents than in the youth...

I'm not sure BSA really gets this...  That is, it seems the marketing is to try to appeal to youth primarily.  They see all the adventure advertising and say, "Hey, I'd like to do that!"

Parents sign them up and are then told, "Hey, you have to help plan, organize, train, and support that!"

Classic bait and switch?

With our prospective parents/youth who visit our unit, we tell them we recruit parents first.  We expect parents to participate on some level in the program.

So, if I read all the other Form 990's right, from 2016 to 2019, those events lost a combined $92,779...

10 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

Our LCs form show a breakdown of Revenue and Expenses on that schedule, does yours not?  

Yes, they all look like this

It's going around...

Our council lost eleven units at recharter.  Don't know the mix of Packs/Troops/Crews, but it isn't good, in any case.

Ok, so, for kicks I ran through the last five IRS Form 990's available for our council (from the IRS website)  (latest posted is 2019), Schedule G, Part II, Fundraising Events.

Net Income?

2019:  -$10,617 (5 total events...golf outings, skeet shoots, etc.)

2018: -$7,550 (7 total events)

2017: -$6,261 (7 total events)

2016: -$68,351 (8 total events)

2015:  $41,735 (7 total events, and hey!  In the black)

So, for those five years, the net income for 34 events was -$51,044

Does this mean the other revenues in our council have gone to subsidize these?

Or, is there some accounting nuance I might be missing here?

And second youth staffer from my unit just confirmed....during the storm, adult staff did leave the dining hall to check on the NYLT patrols.  (I'm fine with that...adults can assume their own risk...)

But, the adult staff also had the youth staff go out in the storm to visit and check on NYLT patrols, with active lightning/thunder.  I had the Scout on speaker phone with his Dad...

I told him to please never do that again.  Adults should not be directing them to take that risk.  And, if they do, politely refuse.  If they press, excuse yourself, get your phone and call your parent for help.

Dad wholeheartedly concurred.

That Scout is 14.

1 hour ago, jcousino said:

my question where was the camp ranger during this event ? He is high on the command change as to camp safety

Dunno...

2 hours ago, jcousino said:

Be careful  with the feedback been told that i am taking up to much of the councils time with safety issues and suggestions

Yes, the usual practice is to wait until someone gets hurt/killed, settle the law suit, then do something about it...

With thoughts and prayers for the family, of course...

Jade for sale, anyone?

So, I just spoke with the Camp Director/Training Advisor...

During Summer Camp, there is simply not enough space to provide safe haven for all campers inside recommended structures.  Summer Camp "procedures" are to watch storm cells on radar, and only pull people into the robust structures if the cells get within 10 miles or if there is "significant effect" to camp, in the eyes of Camp Director and Program Director.  (His explanation, not mine...) 

My observation of this practice is that it is based on an underlying assumption is that lightning is predictable.  I do appreciate the dilemma based on building capacities.  Of course, the follow on question is, well what do you do when there is a "significant effect" or the cells are within 10, with those that don't fit in the buildings?

At this NYLT weekend event, he had advised Course Directors to use those Summer Camp procedures.

Camp Director concurs with me that this is not acceptable, and that, if space is available, it must be used.  He agreed (from under his Training Advisor hat) that they should not have applied the Summer Camp practices to this event.

We will talk again soon after I digest this...and I will ask what course of action he intends to implement.  Holding on to the Near Miss report until next conversation tomorrow...

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At the out-of-council Summer Camp we attended year before last, this was pretty much the same story.  (I didn't give a flying leap.)  When there was visible lightning/audible thunder, I happened to be near the Scoutmaster lounge, so informed the camp leadership.  One (remaining nameless & title-less) looked at his phone and said "That storm isn't going to affect us."  I told him I was pulling all my Scouts into the dining hall. 

As if it would change my mind he said, "Well, they are going to get partials for the classes they miss."  I walked away to gather our Scouts into the dining hall.   While we were in there, Scouts were out in the pouring rain, changing classes.  Lightning struck and downed a tree less than 100 feet from dining hall.  The flash and bang were spectacular 😜 In about 45 seconds, we had 200 new friends in there with us .  One of those times you hate being right...  Now anytime I tell our Scouts we are getting to cover, they skedaddle!

15 minutes ago, yknot said:

When were these built? Who is your incident report going to? If it were me I would cc NCAP and the municipality where the camp is located. I would wonder whether those structures are up to current code. Also, municipal policies for youth events within township borders might supercede BSA camp policies. Regulations for municipal youth sports facilities, for example, can be pretty stringent and enforced. You don't see many teams stuck in dugouts during weather events. It's not ideal to draw attention from a government source but in cases where the judgement of BSA leadership can't be trusted -- and we all know nothing much will happen if your report is solely internal -- then the priority becomes ensuring the safety of future scouts. 

All good ideas... I'll try a "feedback is a gift" approach first and see if it gains any traction.

And no idea on construction dates...50's and 60's original structures is my best guess, with multiple patchy repairs over the years

How about this "Design Your Own":

9 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

What I have seen are just the Camp Safety Rules (including bad weather, wildfires procedures) printed in large type on a 5x7 or larger cards and enclosed in a weatherproof seal. These signs are posted on all structures - camp office to latrines. Not unlike the Safety Signs in classrooms regarding nearest fire exit and shelter-in-place.

I like the NOAA sign.

another reference

https://www.acacamps.org/resource-library/articles/lightning-safety-outdoors

But this sign might not really help...

What is a "Substantial Building"?  I know the answer, but a 12-13 year old will most likely not...  If this sign was posted on a lean-to, a Scout could easily interpret that to mean "Shelter Here"

Place your bets... When I file this report, I'm going to offer to purchase 50 of these signs (or better if @RememberSchiff can show me one) and put them up around our camp.

https://www.safetysign.com/products/10353/when-thunder-roars-go-indoors-sign

Think they'll take me up on it?

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

I saw no Safety signage regarding bad weather procedures. IMO, there Should be a weatherproof sign.

Got an example??  I found this one:

6 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Yeah, I would expect a "no harm, no foul" informal response or perhaps a "more training" response even though both training and safety procedures were not followed.

WTH, add your valued opinion! What constructive resolution would you recommend? Will you send scouts to the next NYLT if these "adults" are again on staff (we did not).

In your lean-to photo, I saw no Safety signage regarding bad weather procedures. IMO, there Should be a weatherproof sign. Are those braces just 1x4?

My $0.01,

Lol, thanks...

But, I know my opinions are not valued by our SE.

And, I really do not expect them to change a thing...  Of course, I do not recommend our parents have Scouts go to any council functions here.  OA functions are laughable, and summer camp is much the same.  Our neighboring council runs a much better NYLT program.   I usually vector them there...this incident just confirms that course... 

Yes, 1x4's.  and many of the lean-to's shake and shift (do you like those cement blocks?)  They have been improving them over the years...

Know of a tactful way to say I'm keeping a record of the incident and report, should a future injury be reported?

I have been drafting the Incident Report / Near Miss this morning.  Trying to avoid emotion, conjecture, opinion and conclusions....just trying to stick to facts known from interviewing my three Scouts who were on the course.

Here's one of the lean-to's at our our camp

Better than a tent, or no cover at all, but not when there is a dining hall within a short walk.  Staff also knew strong storms were coming well in advance, and should have wickered program to move indoors.

BSA safety notes are clear and unambiguous that these structures are not safe during thunderstorms.  Yet, staff, including professional staff (full-time position Camp Director) are telling people they are.  Unsat.

2 minutes ago, BadChannel70 said:

It really never ends does it....the greed that is.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.  Who can know it?

OMG, you will not believe this...

So, during said storm, the adult staff told the 35 youth participants to stay in their lean-to shelters, which they did.

Guess where the adult and youth staff were???...in the dining hall!!!!  And there was plenty of room for all!!

Guide to Safe Scouting: Camping: Lightning Risk Reduction?  Well, I guess it is just a "guide"...  Hazardous Weather Training??  meh...  BSA Safety Incident Review: Lightning?  That's for others, not me 😈😈 😈😈😈

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

I've heard good things, but I cringe when my fellow adult leader used his bripe.  It's like a coffee hookah.  I know it has nothing to do with it, but it teases a drug culture.  It's just something I want to avoid on a scout trip.  I want scouts to think I'm as basic as possible.  

nvm...googled "bripe"...gotcha

Dining flys, canopies, and three-sided lean-to's in the campsite immediately adjacent to dining hall.  During the afternoon/evening and into the night... Talking with one more Scout this evening to corroborate before I submit a report to council.  Thanks @qwazse for vector on the Near Miss.  Spot on.

They were literally 200-250 feet from a dining hall that accommodates 500 people...

More to follow...

1 minute ago, Eagle1993 said:

Follow the rules.  I understand there are cases that are tough calls.  For example, we were at summer camp in a major storm (lightening not wind) that came on fast in the middle of the night.  We stayed in our tents and didn't evacuate as the path to evacuate was likely more dangerous than the area we were already in.  There are cases where you are out on high adventure trips where you make the best call you can.

The case described here isn't that ... let them walk 250 feet and seek shelter.  I don't understand why they wouldn't.

Second parent confirms same story from their Scout this morning...and that there were several Scouts who knew they shouldn't be out, but the adults told them to stay.  

grrrrrrr

7 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

I follow the rules in scouts because they're the rules.  I have to admit I don't get very excited about them if I'm on my own.

For instance, if in my own tent I wouldn't get up and go seek shelter in the middle of the night if my tent is holding up.

Lightning kills 20 people a year in the US, and injures a few hundred more.  In a population of 350 million those are really miniscule numbers.  Many other things I do on a regular basis are far more dangerous.

And your stats are misleading.  Those 350 million aren't really the sample population; they aren't outdoors in a thunderstorm.

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-056_lightning.pdf