InquisitiveScouter

2 hours ago, yknot said:

Most of these clips/posts are by male authors with self validating biases.

So being male disqualifies them?  How sexist of you!  I hope the moderators take note of your discriminatory comments and take the action against you that you prescribe as you twisted others words to match your own biases and angst.

And Dr. Barber and Dr. Peterson are more studied in their fields than, I assume, you are.  Unless you care to reveal your academic credentials or put up the research and experience of others.

2 hours ago, yknot said:

Health care for example is one of the highest risk professions.

????  Gobbledygook

2 hours ago, yknot said:

Those Medieval opinions are not worth the etherspace that they are wafted upon. I think they are beneath this forum.  

The only opinions talked about there are Google's... However, there are upwards of forty citations to scientific research made in his memo.  Recommended reading for you.

2 hours ago, yknot said:

someone who essentially did.

"essentially" ??? Words matter, and you are attributing words to others that they did not write.  "Essentially" you are the guilty party in trying to stir up an argument based on your feelings and a perception of some offense offered, rather than what is actually there. 

6 minutes ago, yknot said:

How so? I don't see that. 

Please view a few of the videos I posted, which discuss the science behind the gender differences, and I'll be glad to engage further...

4 minutes ago, yknot said:

You're talking about making assessments about what is optimal for boys vs. girls based on views that are  discriminatory and offensive. Differences in behaviors is one thing; claiming differences in skills and/or character development to justify excluding girls is another thing entirely. Believing that girls are neurotypically prewired to plan menus is akin to saying a woman's place is in the kitchen and she likes it there. If you don't see the problem with that then I am here to say -- you need to see the problem with that. 
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU&ab_channel=JordanBPeterson

@yknot, it seems you are twisting @Eagle1993 's words a bit.

4 minutes ago, skeptic said:

There goes one week of cookie profit.  And into the pot for survivors I would think.

https://jenikaplan.medium.com/the-great-girl-scout-cookie-scam-b024ffad6e1b

1 hour ago, Cburkhardt said:

 

BSA Seeking $16+ Million from GSUSA regarding dismissed Trademark Suit

Below is introductory text of a BSA Motion to recover $16+ Million of attorneys fees and costs incurred by the BSA during the recently-dismissed trademark suit filed by the GSUSA against the BSA.  The link to the full motion document, which provides granular information of what organizational moves GSUA was making proximate to the Scouts BSA announcement, is pasted below.  It is worth the read.

“Preliminary Statement

By any measure, this trademark case is “exceptional” under the fee award provision of the Lanham Act. That is, it “stands out from others.” As the summary judgment evidence showed, Girl Scouts of the United States of America (“GSUSA”) filed this lawsuit for an improper, anticompetitive purpose, with the Court finding that “[i]n truth, Girl Scouts’ complaint is based, not on concern for trademark confusion, but on fear for their competitive position in a market with gender neutral options for scouting.” SJ Order at 21. Under binding Second Circuit precedent, GSUSA’s decision to initiate litigation against the BSA as a competitive ploy satisfies the exceptional case standard under the Lanham Act without more.  But there is more. GSUSA’s claims were substantively meritless, which also makes this an exceptional case. Lacking any evidence of actual confusion, GSUSA nonetheless pressed the absurd argument that the BSA should not be permitted to use its long-standing SCOUT-formative trademarks for programs that included both male and female members, despite having already done so for 50 years. Indeed, on summary judgment, GSUSA failed to persuade the Court that even a single factor weighed in GSUSA’s favor to support a likelihood of confusion finding under the Polaroid test.  After improvidently filing this case for an improper purpose and with baseless claims, GSUSA then pursued it for years in an excessively costly and contentious manner. Examples include the following:

GSUSA designated twenty witnesses to provide 30(b)(6) testimony on two topics concerning instances of alleged consumer confusion, for which none of those witnesses had actual, first-hand knowledge.

GSUSA resisted producing documents until ordered by the Court, as reflected by the parties’ discovery motion practice.

GSUSA improperly redacted hundreds of produced documents on grounds of purported “non-responsiveness” in an attempt to conceal highly relevant information evidencing the meritless nature of GSUSA’s claims.

GSUSA concealed its communications with its PR agency on highly relevant subjects such as GSUSA’s attempts to undermine the BSA’s reputation through an orchestrated smear campaign in the run-up to the filing of this lawsuit, resulting in the BSA’s service of a Rule 11 motion and GSUSA’s voluntary dismissal of its tarnishment claims.

GSUSA submitted a massive 151-page response and counterstatement to the BSA’s 17-page statement of undisputed facts on summary judgment, which failed to comply with the Local Rules and reflected a transparent attempt to manufacture disputed facts where none existed.

Abuse of the legal system for anti-competitive ends – especially against a non-profit entity devoted to youth programs – should not be countenanced. The BSA respectfully requests that the Court find that the BSA is entitled to its reasonable attorneys’ fees and related nontaxable expenses for this exceptional case. Upon the granting of this motion, the BSA will submit a fee application setting forth and supporting its calculations of those fees and expenses and their reasonableness.”

 

Here is the full Motion:  https://www.law360.com/articles/1486390/attachments/0 

Ouch!

We do not let youth design the program of Scouting.  I'll refer you to the aims and methods...

8 minutes ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

Of course, but that is the bulk of it, and what matters to the kids.

Scouting can certainly provide an equality of opportunity for males and females.  The program, as currently written, is essentially gender-blind.  And I concur wholeheartedly that all should be given the opportunity.

However, you can never achieve equality of outcomes in any field of endeavor.  Outcomes are based on opportunities, individual talents, desires, attitudes, behaviors, and probably a few other things I cannot think of at the moment.

I would posit that mixing genders within Scouting changes the outcomes negatively for males.  Or, maybe a better way to say that is, you get better outcomes for the majority of males when Scouting in a single gender environment (and when they are led and mentored by men).  This is entirely an opinion, yes.  But it sure seems that way to me as a father of a daughter and a son (both Eagle Scouts), and having been a Boy Scout leader and a Girl Scout leader, a Scoutmaster for 15 years, and having been a military officer for 2.5 decades, watching and mentoring males and females as they grow and become more proficient in their careers...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iudkPi4_sY&ab_channel=Skavlan

Beginning @ 7:15 "The more egalitarian your state, the bigger the personality differences between men and women."

@9:50 "If you minimize the cultural differences, you maximize the biological differences."

43 minutes ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

I want to clarify here:  I am not saying there are not differences between boys and girls.  Of course there are.

What I'm saying is that with regards to activities in scouting, there is no difference between boys and girls.

In other words, there is nothing in the Scout Oath or Law or scouting activities like hiking, camping, watersports, etc. where your sex makes any significant difference.

There is essentially one prerequisite for participating in scouting:  enjoying outdoors activities.  If you enjoy outdoor activities, then scouting will appeal to you, regardless of your sex.

 

Agreed, but Scouting is more than just the activities.

5 minutes ago, Ojoman said:

Same thing... 

OK, if you are involved with this, recommend:

1.  address discrepancy between rquirement #1 (15 miles), and the statement at the end requiring only 10 miles.

2. be consistent in naming convention...use the name "Erie Canal Trail Medal" (ECTM) throughout.  Avoid "Historic Trail Medal" references, as this could be confused with the BSA Historic Trails Award https://www.scouting.org/awards/awards-central/historic-trails/ (which the ECTM could be used to obtain)

Best wishes

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-beast/202001/why-women-and-men-still-take-different-jobs

12 hours ago, Ojoman said:

A Historic Trails Medal will be awarded for completion of the above requirements and the completion of at least a 10 mile distance along the canal.  There is no time limit or minimum # of hikes to reach 10 miles.

Is the "Historic Trails Medal" something different than the "Erie Canal Trail Medal"??

Welcome! When I was on exchange to the Canadian Forces, and stationed in Ottawa, we would drive down to many Longhouse Council events around the Ogdensburg/Watertown area.

Welcome!

7 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

Why would an institution deny opportunity to half the population?

Although I support female youth in Scouting, the answer to your question is that we are wired differently, and there is some benefit in single gender programming.

And for our older Scouts this summer, after summer camp we are cycling over five nights on the Great Allegheny Passage!  I wonder if we can camp at @qwazse's house the night before we hit the trail?

There might be a free dinner and beverages at Hofbräuhaus in it for you 😜

12 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

When i organized our COVID-19 summer camp, I used the European model of troops picking their own program as a model. I talked to the PLC, got their input for activities, and organized it. But we were flexible. we moved activities around based upon weather and the conditions the kids were in (the morning bike ride turned into a morning and afternoon bike ride exhausting everyone.) The only Set activity we would not change was the BORs. We had 4 or 5 BORs scheduled for the last nite, and had the committee driving in to do them. Could not be rude to the committee. Everyone had a blast at it,  but many do not want to do it again because they want MBs.

This is the ideal!!

This makes me happy 😜  Except for the final clause of the last sentence...that one makes me a bit sad...😞

6 hours ago, OaklandAndy said:

I believe my council runs the same way, however, with me never experiencing Scouting until I was an adult volunteer, I thought this was the way things were supposed to be. The way you describe it sounds much more exciting and fulfilling. 

It is...Scouts want fun activities, not academics.  Parents want academics and merit badges earned.

Fun is our hook, built around patrol-based activities where we slip in all the character, citizenship, fitness, and leadership opportunities.

I challenge you to sit in on the First Aid class at your camp, and see what I mean.  Rarely is this one counseled to the requirements.  To elaborate, each Scout must complete the requirements as stated.  So, can you imagine how long it would take to teach and evaluate just requirements 1, 11, and 12??

1. Demonstrate to your counselor that you have current knowledge of all first-aid requirements for Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class ranks.

11. Demonstrate the proper procedures for handling and immobilizing suspected closed or open fractures or dislocations of the
 

1. Forearm

2. Wrist

3. Hand and Fingers

4. Upper leg

5. Lower leg

6. Ankle

12. Describe the signs and symptoms, proper first-aid procedures, and possible prevention measures for the following conditions:
 

1. Anaphylaxis/allergic reactions

2. Asthma attack

3. Bruises

4. Sprains or strains

5. Hypothermia

6. Frostbite

7. Burns—first, second, and third degree

8. Concussion

9. Convulsions/seizures

10. Someone who is unconscious

11. Dehydration

12. Muscle cramps

13. Heat exhaustion

14. Heat stroke

15. Abdominal pain

16. Broken, chipped, or loosened tooth

(Sorry, formatting is all messed up on those, and I dunno how to fix it.)  @InquisitiveScouter   Fixed or better?, I recommend you first cut and paste into a word editor, edit accordingly, and then cut and paste into post. ~RS

And I routinely see classes of 15 to 25 Scouts in First Aid at camps...  Basically, the instructor demonstrates the bandages in #11, or lectures on the items in #12, and then signs everyone off.  And that is wrong on so many levels...  Primarily, to earn any merit badge, each Scout must individually complete the requirements to earn the badge, unless it specifically says you may do it with help/assistance/or another Scout.

Here are a couple of examples for those:

Canoeing:   8. With a companion, use a properly equipped canoe to demonstrate the following:

Pioneering:  9. Working in a group, (or individually with the help of your counselor) build a full size pioneering structure, using one of the following designs in the merit badge pamphlet:

Just now, OaklandAndy said:

And more revenue is the reason why most camps don't use this model anymore?

Yes, many councils have created the merit badge mills, which parents love because their Scout gets lots of badges fast, and they can get their Eagle quicker, and move on to the next college-resume-padding activity...

Merit badge mills get a lot more attendance.  Our council is a perfect example: small camp offering 75 merit badges.  60% of our council revenue generated by the camp...  A fairly industrial operation, camp is stuffed to the gills with people.  And there are other camps very much like this...

They went from giving the customer what they need to giving the customer what they want.  Now, that is how our society is based.  (Which is why we have an epidemic of obesity in this country.)  

Rather than BSA (and councils) saying "This is how the program works, enjoy!",  they say, "What do you want?  Maximum merit badges?  No meal prep? Tents set up in advance? Individualized instruction? Troop sites versus patrol sites? None of that pesky patrol stuff?  No worries, we have got the perfect place for you!  That will be $500 per head, please."

1 hour ago, OaklandAndy said:

So you're telling me that Summer Camps used to be a place that troops would basically go camp out and work on merit badges for a week, all being patrol-led with MBC assistance?

There are some camps left where this is still the model.

1 hour ago, MattR said:

I also really liked that they had a build day. Every scout can at least have a reasonable car and it's no more than a few hours. That brings back the fun.

Yeah, I wish people weren't so messed up in the head, and would stop building cars for their kids.  When you go to some district/council events, it is OBVIOUS that many were not the product of a Cub Scout.

My son's car never won those events.  He built one two years in a row, and competed.  Where we lived at the time, it was blatant that parents were building and tweaking cars.  Honed axles, graphite, teflon, or other lubes, etc, etc,

I wouldn't do it for him.  He got a little upset with me, but think he learned a valuable lesson...life isn't fair, and many people cheat and cut corners.

He never built another one.  Adults ruin so much of the fun.  (I suppose I ruined it for him, too...)

When we moved here (his last year of Webelos), this Pack did a modified build day... you could build and trick up the body at home, but everyone had to put on Pack-provided axles and wheels at the event.  No mods, and one adult would lube all the axles.  If you won and advanced, you get get another squirt of teflon before the next race.   It restored a lot of integrity to the race, and the kids had a whole heap of fun.

And there were lots of categories for competition, other than fastest.

Best Scout-theme Car, Best Patriotic Car, Best Alien Car, Best Military Car, Best Star Wars Car, Best Pokemon Car, Best Transformers Car, etc.  The Cubs picked the themes when we handed out the blocks (weeks before), and we announced them to the rest of the Pack.

Cubs could purchase extra blocks and build more than one car, if desired.

I love that this guy spent so much time, effort, and money to make a great event for them.  We should ask him to make us a full up pioneering kit on a trailer 😜

22 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Is 2 MBs at camp ok? 

As long as the instructors and counselors mentor Scouts to meet the requirements as stated, then sure.

This should be a different topic, though...

Summer camp is supposed to be a week in the woods "under canvas", with all that entails...

“A week of camp life is worth six months of theoretical teaching in the meeting room.” BP

It should focus on "...making camp, putting up a shelter, cooking over a fire, exploring our surroundings without getting lost, learning about the natural world and how to use what it provides, constructing things with pieces of tree and rope, tracking, and finally gathering socially around a fire."

https://scoutmastercg.com/essential-scouting-skills/#:~:text=The skills Baden Powell (BP,provides%2C constructing things with pieces

Here are some tenets of an ideal summer camp:

- separate patrol sites

- patrols pitch their own tents

- patrols plan their own menus, do their own shopping, cook their own meals (if possible, over a wood fire!!), do their own dishes, store their own food

- the PLC chooses the activities they want to do, and the adult leaders help them develop a support plan to make it happen.

- a swimming hole

- a place to shoot (if Scouts want to have that activity)

- a campfire (or three) with songs, skits, cheers, and general silliness

- map and compass work, with some hikes to distant places

- exploring the natural world...water, rocks, soil, trees, plants, flowers, insects, fish, mammals, birds...  stalking them to learn about their habits and behavior (I am really good at stalking rocks and trees!)

- ropework and pioneering, building structures that are actually used around the camp, not just a gateway

etc, etc, etc... the focus should be on the activities themselves, under the patrol method, rather than individuals going to school-like classes taught (in general) by Scouts who have little to no experience or skill in those things, and only geared toward getting a piece of cloth

The focus of the summer camp program is not advancement.  Advancement should happen as a result of the program.

What you get in most council-run summer camps is just a poor shadow of the ideal, and our Scouts' development suffers for it

13 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

My preference, Boy Scout camps provide secure pantry and refrigerator space and loaner cookware for attending units . Units/patrols bring their own food according to their needs. The only food ordered by a camp would be for their provisional camp.

Mess halls for Cubs.

My $0.02,

@RememberSchiff, sorry, but this does not meet the country-club merit-badge-mill motif we are going for.  Gotta shave off as much Troop & Patrol work as possible to maximize the number of merit badge classes a Scout can attend and be awarded!!! (I did not say earn)

C'mon, man! Get with the revenue program!

3 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

In the end, I don't think DEI will be the driver of program changes.

Agreed...the Cit in Soc MB is a pig in a poke.  With lipstick.

20 minutes ago, jscouter1 said:

my troop also requires a leadership camp for all scouts getting First Class

Adding to the requirements?? No no

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

Age based patrols are basically setting the scouts up to fail because they don't have a good example for how to succeed.

No, they aren't...the key is the Troop Guide. Wanna really understand the Troop Guide role?  Look at the patch.  He is the Patrol Leader-mentor.  We use Troop Guides to great effect.  Usually, they are past Patrol Leaders for their Patrol.  For six months, they go side by side with the PL of the New Scout Patrols until they "get it".  Six months is about all it takes, depending on program.  We camping trip every month, immediately followed by a PLC, a day trip every month, and have a service project every other month.  Plenty of leadership opportunities.

Train 'em, Trust 'em, Let them lead!