InquisitiveScouter

That was her Gold Award Project for GSUSA, not an Eagle Scout Service Project for Scouting America. Her ESSP was for Richfield Heritage Preserve.

No BSA Accident Insurance coverage for them, I wonder??

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/430-938-24-Range-and-Target-Activities-Manual_8.30.pdf See page 12. Only program levels above Cub Scouts can conduct archery events outside of a "Scouting America Accredited Camp". Need more details other than provided in the story, though...

There are no minimum age and qualifications for that role. The Aquatics Supervision manual, which is the ultimate printed authority, says on page 6-6, under Safe Swim Defense (SSD), (emphasis added), 4. Response Personnel (Lifeguards) Every swimming activity must be closely and continuously monitored by a trained rescue team on the alert for and ready to respond during emergencies. Professionally trained lifeguards satisfy this need when provided by a regulated facility or tour operator. When lifeguards are not provided by others, the adult supervisor must assign at least two rescue personnel, with additional numbers to maintain a ratio of one rescuer to every 10 participants. The supervisor must provide instruction and rescue equipment and assign areas of responsibility as outlined in this book. The qualified supervisor, the designated response personnel, and the lookout work together as a safety team. An emergency action plan should be formulated and shared with participants as appropriate. If the other elements of Safe Swim Defense are in place, water rescues will seldom be needed. Most lifeguards at Scout summer camps, many of whom work several seasons, are never called upon to make a rescue. The same should be true at unit swims. Even so, there is always some chance of an unexpected medical emergency or other situation that could incapacitate a person in the water. Fortunately, rescues in a controlled situation are relatively safe, simple, and easy to learn. Danger could arise if a would-be rescuer is a poor swimmer ill-trained and ill-equipped for the situation, or if water conditions are hazardous. However, hazardous water situations would violate the third tenet of Safe Swim Defense and should not be present at a unit swim site. Chapter 10 will alert the reader to skills that should be mastered to ensure victim and rescuer safety, the equipment that supports those skills, and situations that should be included in emergency action plans. Older youth and adults who have completed the Lifesaving merit badge, Swimming and Water Rescue, are candidates for response personnel, as are those who have American Red Cross or other professional lifeguard training. Other good swimmers may be used to maintain the required 1 to 10 ratio if coached in basic surveillance and rescue techniques. The line-and-tender procedure for the First Class rank is one such technique. Adult leaders, including the qualified supervisor, may serve as response personnel for an entire activity that is not too long. Short breaks in concentration are provided during buddy checks. If youth are used, they will generally need to be rotated so that they too may enjoy the activity. The emergency action plan may specify that response personnel with more training will handle special situations, such as a spinal injury, whereas all response personnel may respond when a reaching rescue is indicated. Response personnel will generally work as buddy pairs, with each buddy monitoring the other. Note that council maintained and operated swimming areas, such as those at council camps, are subject to state codes and typically must have professionally trained lifeguards on duty. Regulatory requirements for the number, training, and supervision of those lifeguards supercede Safe Swim Defense protocols for response personnel for unit swims. That is, council camps are “regulated facilities” that must use professionally trained lifeguards in numbers mandated by statutes. The 1:10 ratio for lay rescue personnel does not apply. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor Program/Aquatics/pdf/Aquatics_34346.pdf A lot to unpack there... basically, read Chapter 10, and if your rescue team has those skills, you are good to go. Minimum number of people to conduct a unit swim? Four... 1. Lookout 2 & 3. Rescue team 4. A "swimmer" Any two of those four could be the 21+ year olds, one for SSD Supervision, and the second to cover your two-deep requirement for the event. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are some "qualifications" available to you, as an adult leader to select from, to meet this point of SSD: (not all inclusive, and listed in decreasing order of "trust" (my opinion only)...) A. Go to National Camping School and become a Scouting America Aquatics Instructor, and train your troop. B. Become a certified lifeguard through an accredited agency (American Red Cross, American Lifeguard Association, United States Lifesaving Association, etc, etc, etc) C. Become a Scouting America Swim and Water Rescue Instructor, and train your troop... D. Become Scouting America Swim and Water Rescue certified E. Lifesaving Merit Badge F. Swimming Merit Badge G. Swim and rescue skills up to First Class. As the adult leader assuming responsibility for the safe conduct of the swim, you determine whether you meet the SSD point of : All swimming and activity afloat must be supervised by mature and conscientious adults, age 21 or older, who - understand and knowingly accept responsibility for the well-being and safety of youth members in their care, - are experienced in the particular activity, - are confident in their ability to respond appropriately in an emergency, and - are trained and committed to the nine points of Scouting America’s Safety Afloat and/ or the eight points of Safe Swim Defense. Good luck!

Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result.... the definition of insanity 😜

Greetings! Welcome to the forum. Hope you get, give, and share some good advice and experience here.

Thanks for your volunteer service. At some point, the uphill battle becomes too steep to continue. If you have no other options, discreetly find a good home you can recommend to your Scouts, and get them transitioned there ASAP. Recommend you not wait until the Troop does not recharter, then do the transfers... that could cause a break in continuity that may cause some to drop all together. Do you already have a solid unit they could go to?

SMH

In the military we would say, "No plan survives first contact with the enemy." (attributed to Field Marshal Helmuth von Moltke, Prussian) The Scouting version of that is, "No plan survives contact with reality." And Churchill said, ".... the best generals are those who arrive at the results of planning without being tied to plans." The Scouting version would be, "The best Patrol Leaders are those who accomplish the goal without being tied to the plan." Many, many more quotes along these lines show the wisdom of planning, and then not being adamant that you stick to the plan you have made, come hell or high water...

No, it isn't. Did you read my original post? I train to standard, and keep a record of their training. I would posit your statement should be presented the other way around, "... do not fall for certification instead of training..." Esse quam videre.

I am a bit confused by your response. So, do you have Scouts who are working on First Aid Merit Badge pursue a "certification", to meet their requirement which says, 7. Heart Attack. Do the following: (a) Explain what a heart attack is. (b) Describe the symptoms and signs of a heart attack and first aid for this condition. (c) Describe the conditions that must exist before performing CPR on a person. (d) Demonstrate proper CPR technique using a training device approved by your counselor. (e) Explain the use of an automated external defibrillator (AED). (f) Demonstrate or simulate the proper use of an AED, using an AED training device if available. (g) Identify the typical location(s) of one or more AED(s) at public facilities in your community, such as, your school, place of worship, unit meeting place, sports facilities, and/or camp or by using a smart phone app. Discuss the reasons for choosing locations like these. That is training, not certification. So are they "falling" for something? If so, would you please elaborate on what they are falling for?

BTW, I have had conversations with Camp Directors on this wrt NCAP. And wherever the standard is vague or conflicting, they have interpreted it in their favor (training versus certification). I know a Camp Director who also asked for clarification from National on this issue... and got no response. So he used "training" versus "certification" to meet NCAP requirements.

Agree!

Wanted the forum's thoughts on this topic. Here's the background... I am a CPR/AED (and First Aid and Wilderness First Aid) Instructor. I train about 50 people each year in BSA, and issue certificates from the organization certifying me as an instructor. The training books, materials, and certificates for the courses have a cost, most of which goes to the certifying organization. When I organize and offer a course, I explain the fees associated, and I do not tack on extra fees to generate an income. Basically, I offer the training for free, but ask for a cost to cover the items above. This helps keeps costs extremely low for our volunteer leaders. And because of this practice, I have many more requests for courses than I can offer. I have to turn lots of folks away, because I do not run my training as a business as many others do. (The market rate locally for an in-person, hands-on, CPR/AED class is about $100.) I keep records of all courses, and the syllabus I teach for each specific class. After issuing certificates, I also submit a training report to council for N06, CPR/AED. Due to economic pressures in some units, I have been asked (I am purposely vague there) to provide training, but not to issue "official" certificates (due to cost), and then further asked to submit training attendance to council for N06 CPR/AED for tracking in adult leader records, so they are covered with respect to the Guide to Safe Scouting which requires "training" instead of "certification".) So, we have a distinction between the two statuses, certification versus training, with one difference: one has a paid certificate from the issuing agency, and the other does not. I have been thinking a lot about this and researching BSA "requirements" (for adults and youth), and state and federal laws and have the following observations/thoughts. 1. If a person attempts CPR and AED use without training or certification, they are covered by Good Samaritan acts and Federal legislation. 2. We would desire that everyone be "trained" in CPR and AED use. 3. Some businesses and occupations require CPR "certification." 4. Guide to Advancement 2025 does not require a certification, per se, for rank requirements or merit badges, but specifies *Note to the Counselor: CPR instruction, wherever it is required, must be taught by people currently trained as CPR instructors by a nationally certified provider such as the American Red Cross, the Emergency Care and Safety Institute, or the American Heart Association." 5. BSA has no specific prescription (that I can find) for awarding N06 training code. When entered, N06 has an expiration of 2 years, in line with all certifying agencies... Currently, I have no issue with training and testing folks according to an approved syllabus, and awarding CPR/AED N06 without them paying for a certificate. What are your thoughts? I was going to punt to BSA National Health and Safety Committee, but, as @qwazse says... 😜

Oh dear... Not too far off what was reported before NAM (16 Feb). https://nam.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2024/05/Change-the-Way-We-Work-Together.pdf Final NAM presentation https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/NAM/2025/2 - Change the Way We Work Together.pdf Although they report the Year Over Year drop as 4%, the drop from Dec 2024, to Apr 2025 was 24.1% On the scale of GOOD to BAD... that is well on the BAD side.

Is that total (all programs) or just Scouts, BSA?

@DuctTape for National Commissioner! It's been a while, and just needed saying 😜

We track all of these at the unit level with a conditionally formatted spreadsheet. Here's just the first 14 of our 30+ registered adults. You can tell who the Committee Members are 😜 Well, those who never go camping... Fourth one down is mine When you are within 30 days of expiration, you highlight YELLOW, and our Unit Training Manager gets on your case. When you expire, you highlight RED, and then I get on your case And if it is required for an event, you do not go as an adult until you get your stuff done. We need capability and backup for contingencies. SYT (Required) Hazardous Weather SCO_800 (Required for All Outdoor Events) CPR/AED N06 (Desired/ Required for Specific Events) Safe Swim Defense SCO_801 or SSD (Desired/ Required for Specific Events) Safety Afloat SCO_802 or SA (Desired/ Required for Specific Events) Climb On Safely SCO_804 or S74 (Desired/ Required for Specific Events) Drive Safely SCO_805 (Desired) Wilderness First Aid N02 (Desired/ Required for Specific Events) 5-Jan-24 NO NO NO NO NO NO NO 23-Apr-25 NO NO NO NO NO NO NO 13-Nov-23 6-Jan-25 NO 16-Jul-21 15-Jul-19 NO NO NO 11-Aug-23 15-Feb-24 7-May-25 20-May-25 20-May-25 13-Feb-24 3-Oct-24 6-Apr-24 2-Jul-24 NO NO NO NO NO NO NO 30-Dec-24 18-Mar-24 NO NO NO NO NO NO 7-Apr-25 20-Mar-24 NO NO NO NO NO NO 2-Jun-24 7-Dec-24 21-Dec-24 14-Dec-22 13-Dec-22 13-Dec-22 17-Aug-23 11-Mar-23 25-Nov-24 30-Apr-25 7-May-25 30-Apr-25 7-Jun-25 7-Jun-25 30-Apr-25 NO 31-Mar-24 23-Sep-23 23-Aug-23 19-Jun-24 19-Jun-24 NO 7-Jun-25 23-Aug-23 8-Mar-25 NO NO NO NO NO NO NO 14-May-25 1-Oct-23 21-Dec-24 12-Jul-21 12-Jul-21 14-Feb-24 NO 30-Dec-22 2-Jul-24 12-Jun-23 11-Aug-22 4-Aug-22 8-Sep-21 17-May-21 NO 23-Apr-23 13-Jun-23 13-Jun-23 23-Apr-23 NO NO NO NO 27-May-23

I totally agree with you. But, those trainings are program specific. For example, G2SS requires Safe Swim Defense (SSD) only for a swimming activity. Safety Afloat only for boating stuff. Climb On Safely only for unit level climbing activities. Range Activities Safety only for unit level range stuff First Aid and CPR only for Safety Afloat, and not for SSD (a disconnect, IMO) Wilderness First Aid is only recommended, not required. Well, required by BSA High Adventure bases, but that is the only program that requires it A well-informed unit leader has all the above. But a TRAINED (for the position) leader is not required to have them, by BSA standards.

You must also have S11 (IOLS) and SCO 800 (Hazardous Weather) to be trained. (From the red notes below.) Now, in the G2SS, you'll find that for Cub camping, you MUST have one leader who is BALOO trained. There is no such directive on the Scouts, BSA side for IOLS. Hazardous Weather (and must be current!!) is required for all programs. The classroom versions of SM specific are better than the computer modules... You cannot ask questions or get more clarifying information from your computer modules...(yet)

Is your training status in my.scouting showing you as not trained?

Hey brother, there is a difference between UNTRAINED and UNTRAINABLE 😜 With S21, Scoutmaster Fundamentals, you are "grandfathered" in. Here's the update from BSA Training: https://www.scouting.org/training/training-updates/ "Training Code S21 was retired following updates to the current requirements, which are now covered by S11 (Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills) and S24 (Scoutmaster Specific Online or Facilitated Training). These courses were separated to provide greater flexibility and accommodate individual schedules. We strongly encourage all Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters—including those who previously completed S21—to complete the latest training. Staying up to date ensures you are well-equipped to deliver the program as designed and effectively support the Scouts in your care." Also, each time you teach a class, you should include your own name in the Training Attendance Report. You get credit for those also. If you taught the current S24, you can get a training bubba to put it in your records. (Super Secret Squirrel Tip: You can also get your unit level Training Manager, or a Key 3, to do this.)

@jcousino would you please cite your source, and provide a link for your claim? G2SS makes no prohibitions on model rocketry. The only model rocket parameters discussed anywhere that I know of are in Space Exploration MB, which says in Requirement 3, " Build, launch, and recover a model rocket.* Make a second launch to accomplish a specific objective. (Rocket must be built to meet the safety code of the National Association of Rocketry. See the "Model Rocketry" chapter of this pamphlet.) Identify and explain the following rocket parts: NOTE: *If local laws prohibit launching model rockets, do the following activity: Make a model of a NASA rocket. Explain the functions of the parts. Give the history of the rocket. Since the National Association of Rocketry was a sponsor of the event, I'd bet the rockets in the challenge had to meet their standards. Ironically, the G2SS DOES PROHIBIT this activity. See Prohibited Activities, item #22 at https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss07/#b 22. Intramural, interscholastic, or club sport competitions or activities. IMO, silly that this prohibition is in there, but it is there nonetheless. Nothing wrong with a group of Scouts competing, but BSA somehow says they just cannot compete AS a group of Scouts. SMH....What has the world come to?

The event is not an outing under the auspices of the BSA, and so is not under its rules. So, as long as the parents understand this, they are responsible for their Scout. Whenever Scouts request to have these types of service hours approved, we make sure to have that conversation with the parents. Think of the logical extreme here... do we have to provide YPT and Barriers to Abuse for any and every they let us know they are attending??

Here's a good resource: https://troopleader.scouting.org/