yknot

That's not the one I was referring to. It's one by elitts that was posted on Monday starting with "First..." If I could figure out how to cut and paste it here, I would do so for you. Although I disagree with the comment you selected as well. Alcohol use disorders are clearly linked to abuse. I've worked in juvenile diversion. It is a pretty common denominator that cuts across social class and standing among other things.

I have said nothing combative, simply pointed out when people are not making any sense or when I disagree. For example, I can direct you to the post on the bottom of pg. 6 where the commentor clearly states that we should not screen out functional alcoholics. Wow. I have directly stated a couple times that I don't agree with that. You may not like my opinion, but that's what it is.

If so then that's a straw man of your making since he was based on your example lol. Bottom line is that I don't think we should trust people who are hiding problems that can impair their judgement or execution of their responsiiblities around kids. This should always be the case anywhere but given all that has happened in scouting it seems to be more critical than ever. You seem to be arguing that we should not be so vigilant. I flat out don't agree with that. I don't have any problem with people who like adult beverages at the proper time or place. I certainly enjoy when appropriate. But there seems to be this tacit acceptance of a certain level of subterranean alcohol abuse in some areas of scouting that is concerning.

Again, you're not making any sense. That's an enabler's litany if I've ever heard one. I mean really, you are using this logic to propose having a narcoleptic drive kids to summer camp?

Listen, no one in scouting wants kids to be hurt, and especially not the folks on this forum. Some say some silly things, but that's only out of ignorance. Most of the people here would pull out the brass knuckles if they ever kinew, heard, saw, thought something bad was happening to a kid. We're going to figure this out. We, as a society, are going to do better going forward. This bankruptcy case is going to help with that.

Scout camp isn't cheaper when you have to take time off to volunteer to help staff the camp. I'm self employed, so that's a big expense right there. The group camps around here are more, but they offer a whole lot more. The draw for scout camp isn't that it's cheaper, it's that you get to spend a week with friends.

I agree. I wouldn't send my kids to scout camp without a parent also attending. Why did your unit pick such a distant location? Was there no discussion about cost and convenience?

Our summer camp with early sign up discount was about $450. We were required to send three adults for the week. Since no one can take off that much time from work, every parent of every scout attending had to volunteer for at least a 24 hour shift, which we could do as the camp was less than 2 hours away. Our unit actively fundraised all year long but the only part of those funds that went towards summer camp was to pay for swim tests. It is pricey. We did get a multiple sibling discount though. Ask if your camp offers that.

You're not making sense. My biggest problem in scouting has been with the functional alcoholics. The others are obvious -- no way you'd let them near a kid. It's the people who you don't suspect and who are able to hide a problem most of the time -- child abuse, drinking, drugs -- who are the issue. You trust them because you don't know they have an issue. They are part of why scouts has such an abuse issue and why it is in bankruptcy.

Hikes at the cub level are more fun if you give each one a theme. We were lucky enough to have access to a naturalist and he did a series of cold weather hikes focused on deer and deer sign, birds and small game, and trees and local plants but you could also just bone up and lead them yourselves. You could also do geocaching or simple orienteering, a nature scavenger hunt with teams, Yukon Trail style games. Maple sugaring Ice skating? Bike ride Visit a local farm to see how the animals and farmers handle the cold weather. Horse farms can be particularly interesting, especially if it's a training barn with an indoor arena and someone is willing to do an exhibition ride to teach them about whatever sport -- jumpers, reining, etc. Construction site. A lot of zoos and wildlife centers are open year round. See if your DPW will let you meet at the town garage to learn about the heavy equipment.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet but that is prohibited by federal law.

OK. Well I'd say that's a completely wrong belief on multiple levels. Adults who are dependent on alcohol should absolutely be screened out. The reasons are so obvious I don't think it's worth articulating them.

I really can't parse out what you are talking about. You strangely seem to be defending alcohol use in scouting because you don't believe it's linked to child abuse despite a preponderance of evidence otherwise, but I am sure that is not what you really mean.

That's a great John Wayne story. If only they always arrived toting a giant cooler filled with evidence lol.

Alcohol use and abuse is intrinsically linked in multiple aspects of child abuse, including sexual. Germans have very unusual attitudes towards alcohol use in general as well as alcohol consumption by minors. I am not sure what you are trying to say by pointing that out as a comparison.

I think it's still around it's just less overt. Unless you ban travel mugs and plastic water bottles, you have no idea what's in them. I had problems in my own unit when I was Committee Chair and was aware of problems elsewhere in the district, council, and region. Some of the folks on this forum are exemplary scouters in exemplary units, districts and councils. But it's a big country though and you may not be the norm. One of the issues we've seen with the abuse cases is that there is no real oversight or consequences for lack of oversight by BSA to ensure that people are following the program and policies. It's why two units in the same town or two neighboring councils can be completely different experiences. I will also say this is one of the reasons why some units are resistant to having women involved, just to relate it back to the topic. They often won't turn a blind eye, or nose, when they get a whiff of something. Edit: I just want to be fair regarding my last comment: I also had to deal with a problem with moms and wine in go cups around the camp fire.

Sometimes that's true but sometimes it's more perception than reality. Case in point one camp out upon arrival a female ASM immediately pointed out scouts were setting up hammocks under deadfall with high winds forecast. The SM told her not to interfere with scouts. An hour later a male ASM upon arrival immediately ordered scouts to move the hammocks because they had set them up under deadfall with high winds forecast. He was thanked by the SM. It was the attempt at tactfulness by the female ASM vs. the direct approach by the male ASM that made the difference in how the action was perceived. The mom was perceived as helicoptering. The dad was perceived as being decisive.

It's not allowed but it definitely occurs. Sometimes it's obvious sometimes it's just suspected.

I think your Blue and Gold can be whatever you want. We used to do potluck for this and Red and White but it's true people seem much busier and less enthused about bringing a tray of ziti or whatever. We've done a catered meal and charged a per head cost. Easier, but it's more costly. The most current iteration is unit buys pizzas, people bring their own drinks and the potluck part is a dessert to share, which can be as simple as a package of cookies. Don't get hung up on the food is my advice. Whatever it is that gets you together, is good. Also with covid the less shared utensils, etc., the better. With pizza, you can almost hand out a box per family and let them serve themselves.

I think it's a function of unit/community culture and what it is that you want to encourage. I've looked out over district roundtables and seen plenty of women involved at the cub level as den leaders who camp and do all things outdoors -- some more gung ho than others but still very willing to be part of the outdoor program. Then at Troop most of them vanish to serve mostly in committee positions. There is a lot of discouragement, some overt but some very subtle and not obvious to people who believe they are otherwise being open to women. I agree it's a smaller percentage of women vs. men who are interested in this but to me it appears if there is a lack it is more due to them being an untapped or ill developed resource. Plenty of women happily camp with their packs and then their Webelos/AOL dens was my initial point. Why do they vanish in many units?

There are millions of moms with scouting experience. They started in cub scouts and then followed their sons to troop. Who do you think camped with them as Webelos?

Frankly, I don't think many units try very hard at all to involve women in their outdoor programing.

I think that's a failure of BSA and not a reflection of the interest level of women. Before I suffered a disability I tried very much to be a part of the outdoor program at the Troop level and was pretty much shut out. If you have a pack environment that develops women leaders and involves them in crossover, then you'll have female ASMs at Troop.

Why? What's so awful about having women involved?

Probably not a bad idea going forward.