Eagle1993

The reason we are pushing is that some of the girls were interested in summer camps this summer. By allowing them to join now they are eligible for camp. Otherwise I agree and I’m not pushing any recruitment outside our current Pack families until next Scout year.

This option should not be overlooked. My nephew was in Boy Scouts for years. He hated Troop meetings (boring) but enjoyed the outings. His grandfather (my dad) is still heavily involved in his Troop (committee member and at council runs many EBOR) and has had arguments with his Troop leader (who plays favorites and invents requirements for advancement). Last blow up came when she refused to sign off all of the scouts leadership positions (except her sons) when she didn’t think they performed them to her expectations. My dad pulled my nephew from the Troop and signed him up with another. The other Troop is small and building. After the 1st meeting with his new Troop my nephew stated it was the first Troop meeting where he had fun (they worked on art MB). So, if it is an option, there may be other Troops that are out there that could be an improvement. Perhaps not, but it doesn’t hurt to look.

I had a meeting with my DE. Very few packs are proceeding with this option (my understanding is that my Pack is the only one or two in his district), so yes we will have a lot of love and attention from our DE. The DE will setup training and help explain how we can run a single cross grade den (similar to how he runs the extension? program). Our DE has been very helpful but I do expect he will be monitoring for national. I’m not sure what involvement there will be outside our DE; however, he emphasized that they will look for new leaders to be registered as den leaders to show separate den(s) for the girls. I think it is clear that everyone knows many Packs will have single gender dens in name only but want to make sure this initial role out is single gender. I actually think they should be less hands on to see how Packs will really react (or not have unique rules). Otherwise I’m not sure they will really learn how this change will really be implemented. There is a bit of the thumb on the scale situation. That said, the response from the Pack has been tepid. We have 3 girls interested over the last 3 days. Once I get a fourth we will start the official process.

Does anyone have an rough org chart of BSA? I’m curious what exists above the council level. What could be saved at various levels to put more money at those directly working with scouters? I don’t know if there is waste but I would be interested in the details. I’ve worked at companies where large amount of cash was spent in HQ vs out in the field where it would have been more effective.

This race exists for boys as well. Just search 11 year old Eagle Scout. I agree it is not a good thing, but it doesn’t really bother me that much. From my experience those scouts are rare, a bit annoying but otherwise harmless to the remaining scouts. If anything, it means the scouts that are racing get less out of the program. I understand the girls who would age out racing to get Eagle more so than a boy (or girl) racing when they have plenty of time.

A scout is Thrifty! Without a doubt, pensions are becoming a rare benefit. That said, I don’t believe DE’s salaries are high (based upon previous forum threads) and the loss of this benefit won’t help. Yes, one can live off low salaries but not everyone is willing to work for $30-$40-$50k less per year. My wife is a volunteer president of a food pantry. The salary and benefits they offer their employees is minimal. The issue they are running into is finding great leaders willing to work for such low salary and benefits, so they settle for suboptimal performance. My concern is that by cutting benefits on already low salary you are on a race to the bottom. You’ll see jobs not being filled or filled by individuals that may not have the best performance. I’m sure there are great leaders that are willing to sacrifice further, but it is definitely not good news for attracting top talent.

If there is any question about BSA’s financial status I think this answers it. The combination of cutting a pension benefit, huge increase in annual membership fee and admitting girls seems to point to a cash concern. I think the 2017 annual report will be an interesting read (2016 looked like a disaster). I expect massive council consolidation (similar to Michigan) as the cost cutting continues. I hope BSA finds a way to financial health soon. I’m impressed with my DE and the amount of time he works. Sad to see this benefit go away.

Her “fight” could have been both about her own interest and also the broader “good”. Either way, I think BSA should keep this simple. Set the start date for girls, any girl that joins must meet the requirements (including timeline) for Eagle. I think that leaves her out but honestly there are probably 1,000s of other girls in similar situations who did work without recognition. I dont think she should get special treatment because her dad was a rich NYC lawyer who ensured her story was publicized. True leaders would be excited for the change and confident that their work is the true mark of accomplishment and leadership... not the rank.

So, we have started the process to add girls as part of the early adopter program. Still early in the process so we will see where this goes Requirements are similar to what you saw in the video. It is clear they want us to keep the boy and Girl dens separate. They want new den leaders for the all girls den(s). It was mentioned that if we have 9 boys and 5 girls in the same level, they could meet same time/place but should have separate leaders and be separate during the activity. This is an emphasis of the early adopter program. They do not want commingled dens. Minimum number of girls per Pack is 4-5. There is no minimum per den. We can combine girls in different age groups in the same all Girl den. This probably explains the pack with 5 girls. Right now, we are working on identifying girls that want to join and den leaders to cover their den(s). If there is not enough interest we will stop. Jan 15 is the official start date.

I expect to see a lot of these announcements nationwide, especially if councils take advantage of the marketing potential. To date, all of the discussion have been theory. Once the general population starts seeing girl and boy cub scouts in Pinewood derby races opinions may get a bit softer and recruiting efforts may be more successful in the fall.

Our council announced that they are looking for some Packs to add girls as early as Jan 15. Our Pack is considering taking this on and are in discussions with Council on what prerequisites we must have in place. Will keep you posted if we go ahead....

I think it depends on Pack size. Let’s say I have a 40 Bear Scouts, 30 boys and 10 girls. I expect limited issues finding appropriate leadership. Now, in my Pack, I expect ~12-15 boy Bear Scouts and 2-3 girls. One of the girls has already been attending all of the Bear den meetings and outings as she is the twin sister of a current member and her mom is one of the den leaders. We already talked as a Pack and we do no plan on splitting that group. We already have a male and female den leader for the existing Bear den. When they move to Webelos we plan on making those two the same den leaders for the Girl Webelos den and they’ll meet at the same time and place. I haven’t seen anything that shows this would violate policy (officially they are still two dens both with appropriate leadership). I also brought this up during a district meeting and they saw no issue as well. I’ve talked with several Troops and they also plan a similar style (same leadership, Boy/Girl Troops, same meeting time/place). Our Pack leadership has decided to take this on a case by case basis, but I do expect several functionally coed dens

I think their plan is the min wait periods so you are correct it would be longer than 1 year. I guess my question would be regarding girls who completed the requirements for merit badges prior to official membership during the EBOR. For example, if their record shows they earned 10-15 merit badges within 1 month of joining BSA. Technically they performed the requirements, but before officially becoming a member. I imagine this will be occurring across the US as Troops race to have the first female Eagle Scouts, and I’m curious how EBORs will handle it. I think this will be a much more common situation than the Ireland one.

I do not see the BSA offering (nor should they) Ireland Eagle (given the number of other girls that could also claim the same circumstances). I have heard of at least one Troop in Illinois who currently has unofficial girl members They are filling out blue cards, keeping track of activities, etc. Their plan is to create Troop 123B with identical leadership as their current Troop That Troop will have girls and would meet the same time and place as Troop 123. As soon as girls are allowed in, they plan to sign off on all the blue cards and provide merit badges and the appropriate rank. That could mean they will have a girl earn Eagle in less than a year after joining. I do wonder how the EBOR would handle these situations. I could see this as the real transition challenge vs the Ireland situation.

My focus is on the grade school age portion (primarily Cub scouts). If you read the guides you’ll see that GSUSA offers similar activities as Cub Scouts .... they just offer many more options. This isn’t just Camp Beverly Hills... though that option probably exists.

I’m in Southeastern Wisconsin. I’ll ask about paid staff at our district meeting. Both Cub Scout and Girl Scout camps are in the range of $175 per week. Some of the Girl Scout camps charge extra for bussing (the bus stop is two blocks from my house). The Cub Scout camps do not offer bussing. One example... Cub scouts have In-town day camp which is similar to the Girl Scouts community Day Camp. The Cub Scout in town day camp is led by adults (with some Boy Scout volunteers. The Girl Scout community day camp is lead by their teen Girl Scouts. I think that helps immensely as the adults can then focus on the other day camps that are offered. i know of a parent who signed their son up for the standard day camp only to learn later the Pack (or parent) would have to provide the two-deep leadership coverage ... so he dropped out of the camp. This is the Girl Scout camp guide that just arrived: http://issuu.com/girlscoutswise/docs/summer_camp_and_events_book_17-18?e=4549039/56597642 This is the website for our Cub Scout Summer Camps http://www.threeharborsscouting.org/camping/cub-scout-summer-camp/61330 Website for our Boy Scout Camps http://www.threeharborsscouting.org/camping/boy-scout-summer-camp/64289 I do think we will eventually get a Cub Scout camp packet... but it is no where close to what the GSUSA generated.

This is my first year as a parent of a Girl Scout, my daughter is a daisy. We just received the Girl Scout summer camp guide and to be perfectly honest it blows away the BSA. The Girl Scouts have weekly camps from early June through MID August. They have a great collection of both day camps and overnights. They have various speciality camps. They don’t require parents or leaders of local units to attend. If adult partners do attend, they are not charged and their daughter receives a discount. The Girl Scouts offer bussing to all their day camps. Their guide is in color with pictures and have several corporate sponsor pages. The BSA guide looks like a joke in comparison. Camps are only offered from late June through July. They give a very high overview and no specialized camps. No bussing. Parents or leaders must attend.. and no discount. No corporate advertising... so do businesses still value BSa experience? If I were a busy parent that was not involved in the BSA I would think the GSAUSA is providing the far superior experience. Perhaps in terms of summer camps.. they may be. While I have been underwhelmed with their program to date, the BSA could learn a lot about improving their camp offerings from the GSUSA especially for the grade school age kids. I’m not sure if this is just my area or national but I was surprised.

In the last district committee meeting I attended I asked if girls could attend the Cub Scout camps the summer of 2018. The individual responsible for the camp stated she asked and it was made clear that girls in Cub Scouts would start in September of 2018. The only official documents I have seen is fall of 2018 so September seems reasonable as the start.

The whole charter argument came up before with the boys club. The Boys Club allowed girls to join since the 1800s but only updated their charter in 1990 when they asked congress to officially update their name and extend the club to girls. Interesting that there was already a Girls Club and they sued to stop the Boys club name change in 1988. After the injunction they Boys Club paid the Girls Club to change their name to Girls Inc http://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/25/garden/when-boys-clubs-meet-girls-clubs.html I wonder if in 5 years we will update our name to The Boy and Girl Scouts of America and pay off the Girl Scouts to rename themselves Girl Guides... history would repeat....

Several years ago our Pack leaders silently went about ensuring only male leadership. We didn’t have an ACM, Treasurer or two deep leadership in all but one den. Our Pack dropped its enrollment by nearly 70% and went from a $3k surplus to a $500 deficit. Last year we only crossed over 5 and most of them have already dropped out. When I and a few other leaders took over we quickly identified the gaps in leadership and sent out requests to parents. A couple of moms asked me if I was open to having female leaders and I answered yes. It only took 3 moms added to the leadership ranks (all den leaders) to turn around our Pack. Our meetings are more effective, we are recruiting better than ever and our retention is up. Oh, and the pack ended up in the black. I absolutely agree that some moms (perhaps many) could hurt the program with the main risk of being too protective of the youth. Adding girls could make this worse. However, blindly lumping all women into this group is a mistake. The three moms in our Pack are more into camping than most of the male leaders. This isn’t saying every mom is a great fit and I agree Boy Scouts is a different beast than Cub Scouts, but the female leaders helped save our Pack, uphold the scout law and oath and haven’t changed the nature of our outdoor outings. Times have changed since 1916 and there are some great female leaders that help ensure our scouting program is successful. I’ve seen this at both the unit and district level. We should thank them instead of blaming them for undermining the ability to have male role models.

I’m working our Cub Scout Pack recharter right now (for January 1). “Moose/Rocco ... help the parents find their wallets.†But I digress. No mention of designating Boy, Girl or Coed. Just your standard process, but now required to be online. It was made clear to me that girls won’t start until September. I’m also concerned a bit about having AoL girl(s) with no Troop to partner with. Our AOL typical does one overnight (minimum) and a few other activities with the Troop. If we have any AOL girls they will be left out of these activities.

Brian ... it’s your call. That said a few quick things I think back to in high school: 1) I have more regrets on opportunities I passed on vs took. The girl I didn’t ask out because I was afraid she would say no (it happens, who cares and move on) or the time I could have been on the field during a World Cup match and passed (once in a life time opportunity). 2) Everybody thinks that their actions are the center of all gossip at school. Yep, you may get a hard time for a week. But the half life on high school gossip is much shorter than you think. They’ll find something else soon enough. Embarrassment passes, but I think you would look back and be proud of honoring them. You may even be surprised by some reactions.

We had a discussion regarding girls in Packs and Troops during our District Meeting. I brought up concerns of possible small den sizes and lack of volunteers. It was made clear that how we run the Pack will be up to the CO and Committee. If we want to have both boy and girl dens meet at the same time/place with two separate leaders that would be allowed. We also talked about Boy Scouts and the expectation based upon early CO and Troop feedback is that there will be some that run it as Troop XXXA (all boys) and Troop XXXB (all girls) that would have the same leadership. Clearly this won’t be all cases but as of now it sounds like they will be allowing us some flexibility. I think the Troop statements were pure speculation but the Pack side sounded a bit more baked. Not sure yet how we will run or interest level (based on sibling interest alone we are thinking 10-15% of our Pack will be girls). Our recent Pack meeting had 8 girls (siblings) attend and some were in GSUSA. One of the GSUSA leaders were also at our meeting (she is also a den leader) and they all remarked how different Cub Scouts was vs GSUSA (a lot more energy and excitement). No recruiting plans yet...

Do you have two strong den leaders? You may be better with a larger den under one good leader than 2 dens with one weak leader. We used to always split larger dens but we found the group that gets stuck with the weaker leader has higher attrition. We now have a den of 24 Tigers with four dens leaders. One is a great leader and the other three help with the breakout groups.

@@backpack. I think he used “ ...did just..†which is a bit different than “just didâ€. I believe 47 years is a long time even for the old guys on this forum (I’m not sure if I’m counting myself as an old guy just yet). As far as the great survey debate... I am 100% sure the organization that spent $400m+ to clear a mountain top to make a camp could have figured out how to survey all of its members (youth and or adult). They didn’t want to. They said so in the various videos that they only wanted input from those that attended their meetings. I’m generally in favor of this change but I don’t believe the BSA really wanted its members input. Their final proposal was nearly identical to what they had before the sessions began. I just wish they came out and said... “we are broke, girls have been asking to get in for 83 years so if your Pack/Troop is interested go ahead, if not don’t.†I’m not a fan of groups stating they are taking input but then clearly ignoring it. I’m rooting for this to work (for all units, both boy only and coed/girl) as I’d like BSA to be around for the future, but their role out of this was poor.