Eagle1993

3 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

Having a handful of women attend a summer camp and having several hundred women attend a summer camp are not the same thing. 

Any given summer our local camp has maybe 25-30 women in camp. The highest number of female staff we'd ever had was 15, so that's less than 50 women. Male Scouts and adults were around 500+. The difficulty even in this environment were the shower and toilet facilities. The camp's shower/latrine facilities contain both the latrines and the showers in the same common access area, thus making it impossible for adults to share a facility with the youth so adults were on one side (with their latrines and showers) and youth were on the other (with their latrines and showers).

Of course, adults had to share the facilities with the opposite sex. The youth didn't. Since there were so few women in camp it was easy to share those facilities.

Now imagine if there are female units and male units. That would make things a bit more difficult because this camp will now want to put female units in one area and male units in the other in order to make sharing the facilities less time-consuming. Female units would be sharing the facilities with other female units (and I imagine a few male adult leaders if they are allowed to even be around female units). Same with male units; they would share with other male units and adults would share with the opposite sex.

Now imagine there are coed units. Both youth and adults would have to share facilities. I have seen this attempted and it does not work on a large scale.

I *do* believe many camps are entirely unprepared for women depending on how such issues are addressed.

This was brought up during our district meetings and the answers we were given included posting shower/changing room times (men vs women) and using port-o-johns until facilities are updated.  I tend to agree many camps are not ready, and councils will need answers as early as this summer for the girl cub scouts camps.

Given that many youth organization numbers are down, I’d recommed looking at society.  

- Women working outside the home/dual income families

- Internet and gaming improvements

- Year round sports organizations

- Lack of buy in that an outdoor organization has relevance in today’s society 

YPT requires a trained adult leader to monitor and guide any youth leaders.  First it isn’t clear the Boy was a youth leader and second it seems clear that he was not monitored by and adult leader.  I’d also state that if parents are raising concens the den leader should be addressing them.

“What happens when the girls transition to Boy Scout Troops when they get to be about 11 years old is still being worked out”, Clark said. “The options appear to be all-girl Scout Troops or all-girl patrols within a Boy Scout Troop”, she said.

This quote came from a spokeswoman from my council during a newspaper interview.  It seems like that all Girl patrol in an existing Troop is definitely being considered.

There should be two adult trained leaders present at all Cub Scout activities.  This den leader is blatantly disregarding the scouts’ safety.  You should discuss this with the Cubmaster if the den leader is not responding.  If interested, I’d recommend you take the BSA youth protection training and you will quickly see that the den leader is violating it. 

@qwazse

What will really happen if BSA waits until January is that existing Troops will have their existing trained SM/ASM/CC/etc. create a paper “girl” Troop and simply combine forces with their existing Boy Scout Troop.  I’m not saying this is a bad thing, but I don’t believe there are a lot of people waiting and ready to quickly create truly independent new Troops in the matter of weeks.

As a CC of an existing Pack it was a lot of extra work to add girls mid stream.  Simply dealing with the crappy BSA IT system, tracking down dues, finding and training new den leaders, reserving meeting locations, etc. while maintaining my existing Pack obligations wasn’t easy.  Many BSA volunteers are already heavily loaded and creating a new Troop is a lot more work than simply adding a den.  

If BSA really wants hundreds of new Troops created in time for spring crossover then I do think it makes sense that they announce and allow Troops to start forming this fall (even if they don’t allow scouts to join immediately).  This will allow the IT glitches, recruiting and training of volunteers, going to your local banks to setup new accounts, setting up meeting locations to occur in time for crossover.

If they go down the path @Eagle94-A1 mentioned then it is similar to adding a den (probably even easier) and they could get that up and running quickly in January.

1 minute ago, Jameson76 said:

Let me make it simple for you...

The new program being proposed for girls is not additional Patrols in an existing Troop, but new Girls only Troops.  If nationals really wants that to roll out correctly (and not be paper Troops) they will need to allow plenty of time for the the organizational structure to get in place.  Adding a den is fairly easy in an existing Pack.  Having volunteers generate brand new Troops will take a lot more work and time.  If they don’t want girls waiting around until mid 2019 for crossover then nationals will have to launch the program this fall.  If nationals is claiming they can launch the program in January next year I expect many girls will be waiting a long time for Troops to form.  On the other hand, if they don’t care about paper Troops forming then Jan would probably work.

Not only that but it takes time to generate a new unit.  It took me 2-3 weeks of IT hoops and leader training just to add a den in an existing pack.  If they want new Troops for girls ready by April 2019 they need to start soft launching this year. That will allow COs to generate the new Troops.  Leaders for these troops to be put in place. Bank accounts created.  Treasures, CC, SM, ASM all trained.  Then what about new equipment?  Reservations for meeting locations.  There are a ton of activities for a new Troop and I’d expect they’ll need 3-6 months lead time so when the girls join the logistical items are complete.  Given that, they should start this effort this fall.

38 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

 

Has anyone run this by their CO or COR already and what was that like? 

We discussed this with our CO who passed a formal resolution during the board meeting stating they would support either direction that our Pack committee would choose.  Our COR and IH supported adding girls.  I definitely agree with the comments that the CO should be informed and decide which direction the Pack should take.

Paper applications are now being accepted.  Most of the girls were able to register online but the. BSA payment system seems flaky after a couple of the parents spent hours using various browsers.  One parent said they checked their CC bill and found the BSA had charged them 8 x $33 ($264) (once for each attempt to register).  She said she is sure the BSA will refund the money ...🙄

There is an article online with our major paper and I’m working with them so they spell our Pack number correctly.  The council is having the other Pack lead the media effort and I’m perfectly content.  I think most members in our Pack fall into the category that adding girls is fine... but I don’t think they are looking to be the center of media attention or lead any crusade.

One challenge we are now facing.  We have three girls who are twin sisters of existing Pack members (all Tigers).  Our Tiger den is 26 Scouts.   A couple of them have been going to Pack and den meetings but are not members of the Pack.  They would like to join but the parents are too busy for more den meetings (for the girls den).  So we have started discussions of adding a second girl den, this one dedicated to Tiger girls that would meet same time and place as the boys.  My thought is that we can actually provide more separation between the boys and girls as I’ll have another den leader attend and work with them separately.  The adult partner will be there for both their kids.  Nothing official yet, but we are discussing it.

14 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

IMO, if the Girl Scouts disapprove of the sales location, then the profits of having sold 312 cookie boxes there should be donated to a drug treatment program, etc.

My $0.02

 

 

Given their take on cookie sales that is probably about $12.

14 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

It was pretty clearly noted here (in the forum and in the media) that the implementation was to be "separate but equal" with regard to Boy Scouts and the implementation of coed. If this message is being changed now it may be that BSA has heard what many of us were saying originally, that the building a totally separate coed program put too much of a strain on already strained unit resources. I wonder how long it will be before they realize they are cannibalizing Venturing crews too?

However, it is 180 degrees from what they were trumpeting this summer in order to sell this to the opposing rank and file.

I agree with the above. I may have read the other comment incorrectly but I did not see volunteers state that they wanted the separate but equal program.  At all of my District and “family scouting” meetings there were questions on where the volunteers would come from given the proposal.  There were questions from COs in how this would logistically work.  The opinions were either fully implement coed or stay away.  I didn’t see much (or any) support of separate Troops. It appears that national is now realizing this.

4 minutes ago, Gwaihir said:

 I remember in our own family scouting meetings, the ONE thing that almost everyone was firm on, was "i dont care what happens to the cub scouts, but boy scout level must be separate" and the response from professional was "and that is exactly what is being proposed".  

This was exactly the opposite of what I have heard at our meetings.  Most have voiced support of fully coed and rejected this proposal as there were not enough volunteers to implement.

8 minutes ago, Gwaihir said:

The concern should be even higher at the Cub level specifically because of this reason.   We can't keep thinking of these things in their separate bubbles, there needs to be a big picture view of how things are interconnected and play themselves out over the long haul. 

I'm also very suspect of the Troops that are not obedient that flout the policy, they won't keep patrols separate because they're either agenda driven, or they really only care about making things easy for themselves.  
 

A good point regarding Cub Scouts in that it could establish the mindset in Boy Scouts.

I’m not sure what you mean by agenda driven.  I find most of the comments in all of these forums agenda driven.  Some have agendas to keep BSA boy led.  Others have agendas to change OA.  I guess what agenda are you alluding to.

Only 11.2% of corporate officers in Fortune 500 companies are women (I assume that means 88.7% are men and 0.1% are other).       Only 4.2% have female CEOs.  Clearly there is a fall off of women leaders somewhere...

I think leadership of coed Packs and BSA4G Troop who will run like coed will have to watch for this and it may be a good reason to ensure there remains some segregation within a coed program.  I don’t see much concern at Cub scouts as it is parent run and there are really no leadership roles.  At Boy Scout level, for those Troops that combine (they’ll exist) I certainly hope they keep the Patrols separate to allow both boy and girl PLs and even keep separate SPLs.   

While girls dominating may contine into high school, I’m actually not seeing women leaders take over my workplace (in the USA).   I still see male leaders dominate the ranks after you get beyond the first level.  This is such a concern in our corporation that I’m being pulled into new training titled Men Advocating for Real Change.  Essentially watching for bias within the organization that could be preventing a diversified leadership.  I could see BSA as a great method to help build both male (and female) leaders of the future.

@Pselb

Before this thread goes down a path of pro/con girls I would recommend (to all) that those posts go in Issues and Politics.  There has been pages of debate and I definitely have no issues seeing that debate continue and I believe you have some valid points and concerns.  I posted this in programs as my goal with this tread is to talk of the actual program as we add girls and issues/challenges/ideas as BSA already made the call and Packs that decide to add girls should have the ability to share experiences and ideas.

I’ve seen several kids hit trees (not scouting) while sledding... luckily no ER visits.  If you are not careful you can easily misjudge your speed (and thus length of run at bottom) or your ability to control yourself going straight.  My heart goes out to this family and it will make me think twice when I send my kids out sledding without helmets (we’ve never used them for sledding or seen them used).

This looks good to me.  We also have energetic Scouts and a few tips that helped us:

Parents discouraged from attending den meetings after Tiger.  After Tiger they are just in the way and can distract the scouts.

Having keep busy activities available for the time before Pack meeting starts.  In some cases bins of legos, others Holiday card making, etc.  Something to keep them occupied.

Den Meeting whistle.   Some may frown but Iit works.  I had a den leader forget his whistle one day and it looked as if he had PTSD after the meeting.  

A council had hooters help sponsor a camp???  My company won’t even reimburse Hooters expenses on corporate cards (they lump them in with the “gentlemen’s” club list).  I love that sassy ass response from the DE.  I’m surprised he didn’t reference the wings.

Wow. What next?  Bars, smoke shops, strip clubs?  

Let’s talk about some of the metoo “victims”

#1st tweet was on Harvey Weinstein by Ashley Judd (Oct 5)

Roy Price was taken out Oct 11... 

Larry Nassar Oct 18...

Kevin Spacy Oct 29...

Roy Moore Nov 9.... 

Louis C.K. Nov 10...

Matt Lauer Nov 29...

Garrison Keillor Nov 30... at first I thought perhaps this one was a reach, until MPR came out with a bit more info...

Russell Simmons Nov 30...

Al Franken Dec 7

Mario Batali Dec 11

Gary Goddard Dec 20..

Read about these.  Which men should be put back in their position?  What I see is man after man in positions of power sexually abuse, assault and harrass men and women for years and decades with no fall out.  

I’m sure there are some (I think the figure published is 2% but it’s probably higher) that have false acquisition.  The beginning of this thread was that metoo was bad for women and men.  I call BS.  Status quo is bad for good people.  Taking a stand against individuals who abuse their power is always a good thing.  

As scout leaders it should make us relook at and ensure we are enforcing YPT.  Larry Nassar was able to sexually abuse countless girls including Olympic athletes for years.  Girls parents believed the abuser instead of their own daughters.  No 1 on 1 contact must be strictly enforced.

In my home time in the 1980s a child accused a Catholic priest of rape.  A few days later it came out that he lied.  I remember my parents saying what a sick boy that kid was for lying.  Only he wasn’t... Years later that priest was found with another boy.

I don’t think now is the time for scout leaders to send messages that are being sent in this thread.  Many of the posts seem to be much more about judging the accusers than encouraging openness and getting to the truth.

I guess my question to you is what do you want to see?  I want women to feel unpowered and report instances of sexual harassment and assault.  Those reports should be fully investigated and guilty individuals should lose their jobs and freedom, if appropriate.  Too many times women (and men) have been silent as we have seen over the last 3-4 months.