Eagle1993

I think we need to be careful of sticks or canes in the senate.  There is some nefarious history. 

http://www.ushistory.org/us/31e.asp

Not siding with nationals on this as I’m advocating a case by case decision.  Each lodge reviewing their own with local tribes.

That said, if the WB group painted their faces black, dressed up like an “African”, danced around, used voices and fake stories reminiscent of 1930’s Hollywood view of African tribes, I believe you might see some protests and changes from national.  

I haven’t been through WB, but I certainly hope they don’t do the above.  

6 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

I personally could care a less, but I’m shocked BSA doesn’t want them only in BSA.

I’m not sure I understand why the BSA would want this.  To me, many girls may want to do both. How does maintaining their GSUSA membership harm BSA?   The girls joining our Pack would drop GSUSA membership if they had to choose, but I would never ask that of them.  

1 hour ago, cocomax said:

But I guess now we are expected to put them down to build up the BSA.  Sad.   

 

BSA is not being very scout like.

 

Hmmm.. what is your source from the BSA    that we are supposed to put them down?  I have only heard BSA talk up their program and never rip the GSUSA.  Even on the local level I have not seen any DE or council employee rip the GSUSA.  Yes, individual scouters will explain their experience but I’m wondering where this comment came from?  Was this in the same CNN interview where someone said who cares what the boys want?

1 hour ago, The Latin Scot said:

 

The fact is, the BSA is going to have a new program for girls, while Cubs and Venturing will include girls in their programs as they are. So we might as well just try to get along with the GSUSA, because for the time being no amount of whining, criticizing or arguing is going to change anything. Both organizations will benefit from working together; neither will accomplish much spending its energy tearing the other down.

I certainly hope that occurs; however, it will probably have to happen at the local level.  The problem I see coordinating with GSUSA is their structure.  We have 1 Pack to their 6 Troops at our school.  Those Troops rarely coordinate within our school let alone them coordinating with us.  In addition, several of the troops have their own internal drama with different factions of girls wanting different things.  That said, as a committee we have discussed coordinating more and may attempt this in the future.

I do wish the GSUSA attempted to partner with BSA instead of fighting as they have a good program and there are some great Troops and some good summer camps.  I think some of their leadership decided to fight to scare parents from considering to switch their girls away.  Your point about the articles regarding coed is spot on; however, the general public may not understand anyway and it is easier for newscasters to report coed.

We have attempted to emphasize the GSUSA  program when talking to parents. My daughter will remain in GSUSA unless she does not enjoy it and I no longer see the value (that hasn’t happened yet).  Beyond that, it is up to the parents and girls which program(s) they want to be a part of.

10 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

I’m shocked BSA is allowing them to have a dual membership between GSUSA and BSA

Why?  

I don’t think BSA would have any loyalty test or requirement (you can join both 4H and BSA).  For elementary school age girls, I don’t see it as an issue.  GSUSA Troops in my area typically meet right after school and our Pack and Dens meet later (so no overlap).

I doubt many will maintain both as they go into middle school and high school (too many activities).  About half the girls that joined are members of both organizations (or will be once we figure out how to switch on our family Pack setting).

All of this is still VERY early.  My primary point is that I wish the program and offerings mentioned in the article were more consistent and widely available, it is clear there are gaps by the girls that are joining my Pack.  

4 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

You mean “perceived,” I think.

Oops.  

My daughters Troop picked the summer camp “Diamonds and Pearls” where they get to put on a fashion show and pick out clothing for their councilor.  Troops in my area have divisions as some girls want the outdoor activities and others prefer more “traditional” girl interests... many trend to the cookies, STEAM and going to the mall as an outing.  A few do get outdoors a lot, but it really depends on the Troop leaders and what the majority of the girls want to do in the Troop. There is no camping requirement in GSUSA unlike BSA.

In my Pack, we are up to 10 girls with almost no advertising.  We have 70+ boys. Many are coming from GSUSA (including one GSUSA Troop leader).  While several are maintaining membership in both there is definitely a persevered difference in what we offer.  

1 hour ago, Col. Flagg said:

 

If we held movie and TV writers to the standard of portraying real people and events properly (and without embellishment) we'd all be watching PBS documentaries from the 1970s still.

Are movie and TV writers trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind...

If we want to tell madeup stories of Scouts I don’t see an issue.  If a lodge works with or gets permission from a tribe on their stories, regalia, etc.   no issues with me.  I think we run into violating  the scout law when making up stories involving another culture that then offend the individuals in that culture regardless of our intent.   There are plenty of options on how to avoid this situation.

I think BSA is simply using the term Family Scouting in place of coed as they are attempting to keep some single gender aspects of the program intact. 

For example, in my.scouting.org if you go to Organization Manager and are the CC for a Pack, you can click on setting you will see a new section called “Family Scouting”.  That appears to be able to be set to is or is not available.  I believe they use this term instead of coed.  Again, as they want to say the family (both boy and girls) are invited to join.  I don’t see this as a strategic change to also include mom and dad earning ranks or going on all activities.

You guys are thinking about this all wrong.   Finally, a council has found the solution to all of their financial woes.  However, they haven’t gone far enough.  Each year they should auction off 15 Eagle Scout rank advancements to the highest bidder.  I bet some desperate parents would fork over $1k each. Could you imagine what the first female Eagle Scout would go for if Nationals took this idea?  I’m thinking six figures.   You could sell lower ranks and other advancements as well, MBs, Eagle Projects, etc.  $120 for Eagle is a bargain... 

But seriously... I have a real problem with this.  These scouts have put in the work and I’m sure have spent countless time and money on various activities to get that point.  The council should find another way to pay for this...

3 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

 

We tend to hear a great deal about those that are offended by the OA, but those Native Americans that routinely come out and support, teach and work with the OA are seldom given the same voice.

Have you reached out to your local tribe(s) to invite NAs to work with the OA?  From what I can see, the Seminoles did work with the local OA chapter.... but which others?   I wonder how widespread the support is from various tribes and if they truly see this as honoring them.

If the support isn’t widespread from NA tribes I wonder if it is worth the effort to fix that or to simply create new traditions as some have suggested.  If it is widespread then perhaps it is simply correcting the areas that are not working with NAs.

I went over and read a lot of forums on powwows.com.  There are several threads about OA and Boy Scouts imitation of Indian culture.  There are mixed opinions depending on poster.  Some are against any non NA group depicting NA culture.  Others defend OA and Boy Scouts who show honest interest in learning about Indian culture and working on accurately working on dance and regalia.

One hot button issue appears to be ... pan Indian presentations.  There is no single Indian culture... there are tribes.  So, if you want to do this correctly you should wear the regalia of the tribe accurately and the dance only those tribe dances.  Wearing, drumming and dancing generic Indian representations is akin to painting  on blackface and putting on a Minstrel show.

Definitely a mix of opinion, but that appears to be a red line.

9 minutes ago, packsaddle said:

That prediction was held by a very small minority of scientists who were basically attempting to play the 'devils advocate'. They were obviously wrong.

Actually there is something called global dimming.  It is the impact of aerosols in the air reflecting our the sun’s energy back into space.  It actually can help offset global warming impacts but the trend is reversing as countries get more strict about particulate pollution.  There is is even some belief that contrails actually help lower earth temp.  Some limited studies of this occurred during the days post 911 when commercial aircraft were grounded.  

I’m not sure if that is what the 70’s scientists were talking about.

I would add... if possible... to perform this outdoors with a bond fire. You captured the key parts, especially the symbolism of leaving the parents to a patrol. 

Correct. German and Irish decendants are part of those parades and support them.  I’m of Irish decent and my wife is primarily German.  If NAs are part of the ceremony or if the OA works with them on a ceremony then no issue.  The issue is when a population that was nearly killed off by another race has their customs taken and performed without their permission and against their will.  

Just think if Germany scouts danced around dressed like Hasidic Jews.  Sure, it has been generations since that genocide and the German scouts could be doing that in honor, but if the Hasidic Jews stated it was disrespectful then there should be no argument.  I would also argue that I would never tell the Hasidic Jews that their offense is simply “their choice”.  

Given that we (non NAs) have taken nearly everything from NAs I do feel they get to own their cultural representations.  

I’m not sure it would qualify or even be achievable, but I think it could be an awesome Eagle Scout project for a local OA member to work with a local tribe to develop a ceremony accurate to local NA culture that could be passed down for generations.  

Over the past 20+ years I’ve come to the belief that NA culturally representation is owned by NAs.  If an OA lodge works with a local tribe and comes to some sort of agreement to honor them through ceremony I’m all in favor.  If NA tribes in the area are not in favor then it starts to feel like a blackface play... even if well intentioned.   

I will say my experience in OA and with any NA cultural experience within BSA was done with respect and we discussed NA history in full context.  I would certainly hate to lose this as it is a great opportunity to keep NA history, culture and customs alive.  At the same time, if NA groups see this as insulting then it cannot continue. Perhaps National OA can discuss this with various tribes with the goal of finding a way to use ceremonies for eduction and honoring NA traditions.  

I would look at what Florida State did with the Seminoles as a good example.

3 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

How many of your scouts/families have quit over your Pack's decision to admit girls? Did they quit scouting or transfer?

None at this point, but will watch for this.  Our attrition rate has been fairly low so increases should be apparent.  That said, no family has complained.  I think the separate dens help during the transition  plus girls have unofficial been tagging along for years so seeing them around won’t be a big change.  Having them attend overnights and participate in meetings will be new and will watch for friction.

Week 1

We are up to 9 girls now, 4 Lions, 1 Tiger and 4 Bears. The Troop has caused some issues with the charter renewal so we haven’t been able to sign up online yet... should be fixed by next week.  We expect a few more Tigers to join as well.  

A couple of the parents are interested in becoming den leaders.  One is a current GSUSA leader and the other an Eagle Scout and former scout leader.  We have den meetings set up and several of the girls will be part of our upcoming PWD.  

We haven’t figured out the Be A scout flag and our DE told us not to worry about it.  

In our case, I definitely see a bit of pull front GSUSA.  In particular the 3rd grade girls. There is a split in that Troop where some would like to do outdoor activities and others the fashion and mall stuff.  The girls interested in the outdoors are now joining our Pack.  

I was on he fence of creating Girl dens next year but the interest shown so far makes me think we can create separate dens and have enough volunteers to cover.       Several of the parents of the girls are interested in keeping it separate as well.

Our current pack of Boys is 71 but is growing to 73 as new boys are coming in as well.   With these new girls we will be t 82.  We have not advertised at all... this is from parents discussing during drop off and pickup.  Rough estimates based o  word of mouth is that we could see 25-30 girls join next year.

The new parents have been great so far.  The fathers for the most part are the ones interested in this opportunity.  Several have stated they aren’t interested in causing trouble they just want their daughters to have the same opportunity they had (or their sons had).

Next up.. fixing the Troop charter and PWD with some girls.

A new Where’s Waldo game!  10 up arrows to the first post who finds a Girl or Coed Pack!

12 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Well it may default to 'Boy' pack until told otherwise.

That is true; however, early adopters should be updating them.  We haven’t been able to update ours (my understanding is COR has to setup first).  I haven’t found any Packs showing up as anything but boys.  

One quick update that I’m not sure if anyone else noticed. The Be A Scout search now shows if packs are Boy only, Girl Only or mixed.  I haven’t found any that are listed as anything but Boy Only but something to watch for as this ramps up...

Expand the Morenci mine in Arizona. 

I also have problems with environmentalists who seem to believe food, products and electricity can just magically appear.  There are definitely trade offs that must be made and risk/benefit analysis should be considered.   

That said, I believe protecting water is especially critical as no mine or drill site can be 100% clean or operate without error.  My grandma had an oil well on her land in southern Illinois.   There were spills (relatively small).  The good news is that it wasn’t near a water way so to clean them up you dig out the containment and haul it to a landfill.

My wife has worked for a power company to remediate oil gasification sites.  Again, clean up is expensive but simple.  Dig, dig, dig up that muck and replace with clean soil.

100% on board with the comment that we have to allow drilling and mining ... but we should also have limits where the risk is simply too great.

I have fished multiple waterways (Milwaukee river, Illinois river, etc) that suffered from industrial pollution.  It has taken a generation for them to start to recover from one generation’s mistake.    I would not want to see that mistake  repeated.

I don’t believe the copper market is at a shortage crisis to the point that we should risk the BWCA.  Damage to waterways is long lasting and extremely difficult to repair.