Eagle1993

40 minutes ago, fred johnson said:

Agreed.  Not a huge thing.  I thought I heard about 5th grade girls signing up for pack that are early adopters.  Not sure what happened there.  

A fifth grader approached us and council had given the ok.  We made it clear there would be a time period where they wouldn’t be in scouting.  In the end she decided to wait for the Troop option (I think that was for the best). I’m not sure if we would have had her app approved all the way through Nationals if we did go thru with it.

I think you need 6 months in after completing 4th grade ... which typically means earliest anyone should cross over is December.  So they would have to wait ~2 months unless I missed something.  I don’t think this would represent many scouts.

Has anyone done the math to see when the first girl Eagle will be awarded?

It looks like Troops start Feb 2019.  That should be early enough for most 4th Grade girls.  5th graders were not supposed to join but I’m not sure how well that was enforced.  If they exist they’ll have to wait after this summer when they age out of Cub Scouts.

Thanks for sending this out.  Looks like they plan to keep separate Troops but worked out a way to allow some of the overhead (CC, Treasurer, committee chairs, etc.) to essentially work coed.  I wonder if they will force separate names for ASM and SMs between the boy and girl Troops under one committee.   Good to see dates out there.  While I would like to see earlier the linked Troop idea should cut down some of the overhead and allow Girl Troops to form quickly starting Feb.  

Good advice above.  I think the order of priority would be ensuring the pack is safe, then the activities are fun and in line with teaching scout ideals and finally the advancement tracking. 

The lack of YPT/Adult applications (background checks) is a concern.  I'm surprised the CC wouldn't be driving that issue.  Not much you can do now, other than raise the concern. 

You didn't mention actual den/pack activities beyond B&G.  Are the pack activities fun, appropriate & well attended?  How are the individual dens run?  Do you see high attrition in the pack?  If there are issues with the actual program the scouts see, then you are facing a much bigger issue then some incomplete forms & tracking software. 

Finally, I don't see advancement tracking as a major concern for Cub Scouts.  Our pack uses Scoutbook and as CC I help enter in the data, but our main mechanism is simply having Den Leaders talk with the parents.  If we miss tracking pins/belt loops we don't consider an issue as long as the scout completes the required ones and we make sure to track the rank advancement.

As you only have ~12months left in the pack making lasting change will be difficult without recruiting a parent of a young scout (Tiger/Wolf).  If you COR is active (to ensure a good future CC) but your activities are strong, then you may just need a member or two on the committee to help the paperwork issues above.  If your program is also starting to suffer, that could indicate an issue with the CC and/or CM.  Again, find that young parent that has similar goals and have them join the committee.  Depending on when the CC will move on (assuming they are there due to having scouts in the program) the parent can take over CC eventually.  That is the role where you can really influence and improve the pack.

The Pack committee decides what process to use for handling funds and it is the treasurer’s job to enforce the policy.  They should not invent hurdles for your already overburdened den leaders.  I disagree with the treasurer regarding the mixing of money, unless that is Pack policy.  We have done this frequently (for example a leader to puts a $1k deposit for a camp then deducts that from his sons camp charge to only ask $800 in credit).   The treasurer should be able to handle this easily in their ledger.  Our treasurer, who is also a den leader and a senior executive  at his Corp, has never felt the role was that difficult or time consuming even while working efficiently with our den leaders.

If the treasurer is not happy with the policy they should take that up with the committee.  All of this should be done with a good attitude.  You are all volunteers and systematic conflicts within leadership can destroy a Pack.  It sounds like your CC needs to step in to help mediate the situation.

5 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

"Always in motion, the future is."  Master Yoda

 

One national level volunteer has stated on FB that National is now looking at coed troops, but segregated patrols. And one employee stated that the Scout program is still being worked on and it may not be ready until late 2019 . When I commented about how Cubs can cross over as early as December 1 2018, his reponse was that they could stay in the pack and work on Activity Badges until the program is set up.

I’ve now heard from several sources the plan is to vote on the proposed program for girls during the May national meeting.  We should know the answer in June.

A group is maintaining a map of every council with early adopter Packs.  See below:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1UMMudFUybRb5G2mun-tIQ7_jWU3_Lel1&ll=43.0890255520589%2C-97.97409562070374&z=4

19 minutes ago, SB_Eagle said:

You misunderstand what 'well regulated' means in the Second Amendment.  The first 'well regulated militia' clause explains the reason of the second 'right to keep and bear arms' clause. Regulated meant 'proficient in the use of arms' as written at the time.  The 'militia' are all able-bodied persons.  In no way does it or has it ever meant to be a right regulated by any congress. None of the Bill or Rights limit or seek to regulate citizens' rights, only recognizes and limits governments' ability to limit citizens' rights. The Federalist Papers No. 29 and 46 along with Supreme Court case DC vs Heller and McDonald vs Chicago are good places to start in order to better understand this.  It has been repeatedly reaffirmed that armed self-defense is a fundamental right that shall not be infringed upon, no different than any of the other parts of the Bill of Rights.

Supreme Court has not been consistent.  You can also look at prior decisions that focused on the militia as being the purpose of the 2nd amendment.

Presser vs Illinois claimed the national government cannot regulate guns but the states can.

US vs Miller

“In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State, 2 Humphreys (Tenn.) 154, 158. The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. 'A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.' And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."'

Constitutional scholars disagree.  Liberals focus on the well regulated militia and can point to clear case law.  Conservatives focus on the people portion and point to other case law.  Even with recent decisions  and the current Court makeup there is plenty of space for additional gun control.  The Supreme Court just denied an appeal of California’s 10 day wait period.  

I would imagine that BSA would have filed a trademark by now if a new name is rolling out.  I’ve been watching the trademark listing and haven’t seen anything yet.  Girl Guides does appear to be available for anyone to claim.

17 minutes ago, gblotter said:

Mine too. But I hope no one is nostalgic for that disastrous experiment of the 70s. Can we really not learn from past mistakes?

What was the experiment?  I was 2 in 79 so my memory is a bit fuzzy.

BoSco is much better than an alt BoyScAm 😀

5 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

I think the organization is still going to be the "Boy Scouts of America," as it has been even though there have been girls/young women as youth members in one of its programs for the past 45 years.

I also think that the program, "Boy Scouts," is still going to have that name even if National pulls a switcheroo and allows girls in Boy Scout troops.

I'm willing to bet one person $1 on this.  (My standard betting limit.) 

Probably depends on how many girls join.  If girls represent 20-30% of total scouts I think this changes.  One guess is that Boy Scouts of America moves to BSA (similar to Federal Express went to FedEx).  Boy Scouts would become .... no clue.

If girls represent 5% and our membership continues to decline we will become REI Scouts of America (or whatever brand(s) help bail us out).

I agree that I don't think any change will happen immediately but a few years down the road it will.

25 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

All-girl packs don't exist yet.  The early adopters were Boy Packs that agreed to take girls now.  We shouldn't see Girl Packs until fall based on the full kickoff.

They do exist .. at least 1...

http://www.visaliatimesdelta.com/story/news/2018/02/01/visalias-all-girl-cub-scout-pack-blazes-new-trails/1086714001/

6 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

I found Eagle1993's description of their local troop's plans for adding
girls very interesting.  (a girl patrol in existing troop, or a girl
troop meeting at same time/place as the boys.)

Has anyone heard, in their towns, of anyone planning on starting up an
actually separate troop for girls?  (I.e. at least meeting at a
different time or in a different room than the boys, even if sharing
some resources.) 

A bit of background (just in case you haven’t seen this already).  What has been officially announced is the girls from age 11 - 17 will form new yet to be determined groups similar to Boy Scout Troops.  Since that time there has been no official clarification from nationals. Note that the official start date for this group is 2019 but no other specifics have been given.  

I have not heard of Troops in my district making plans for Girl Troops at this time; however, I expect that to change as soon as BSA officially announces the program.

@Treflienne

Good to hear your interest and I wish you the best of luck!

Thanks for the details and that is essentially what I have seen with my daughter’s Troop and what I have heard from other GSUSA members who have joined our Pack.

The other issues I face is that our local Troop meetings are right after school so:

- a lot of girls attend as a social activity and free after school daycare, many of them have no desire for doing outdoor activities (their outing that was voted on is going to the American Doll store)

- Another Troop is not an option.  We would never be able to get my daughter out of school to another Troop meeting on time, so if we don’t like our Troop’s activities we are out of luck.

@ItsBrian is correct as I’m sure there are some great outdoor focused GSUSA Troops out there.  I just wish it was more common but understand my daughter is probably in the minority (girls that would perfer a hike vs going to a doll store).

They also use “youth” for Cub Scouts. I think they are emphasizing separate dens and that is why they are not “coed”.  

When they initially announced the change last year then emphasized that there would be a new program for girls 11-17 (it wouldn’t be Boy Scouts).  As they now updated Boy Scouts to youth it makes me think the Buzzfeed article is correct and they plan to allow girls to join Boy Scout Troops.  

I tend to agree the word “Boy” will be removed or replaced eventually.   

Interesting follow up to this article.  The www.scouting.org website recently changes Boy Scouting from "Boys" 11 - 17 years old to "Youth" 11 - 17 years old.  It also sates 

"This is the traditional Scouting experience for youth in the fifth grade through high school. Service, community engagement and leadership development become increasingly important parts of the program as youth lead their own activities and work their way toward earning Scouting’s highest rank, Eagle Scout."

https://www.scouting.org/programs/boy-scouts/

Emphasis was added by me.  This aligns to the changes they made to the Cub Scouting description before offering girl dens.  

If you click on Join you can see the prior description that Boy Scouting is for "Boys" 11-17 years old.

I think there is a lot of smoke here that BSA4G will be nearly identical to the Cub Scout implementation.  Time will tell...

40 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

It is interesting that families are leaving Girl Scouts for Boy Scouts and if that's a natural result it's not too bad.  One little sister told me at blue and gold that she joined girl scouts,and I asked her what she's done in girl scouts and she said -- sell cookies!!!

I feel that GS is all cookie, cookie, cookie.  if I were a girl mom I would try to get away from it too. 

I started to write paragraphs of my and other parents’ experience with GSUSA but I decided I was becoming not Scout like.  I’ll just say when we started girls in our Pack my wife, other leaders and I were very protective of GSUSA.  After my daughter’s experience and hearing reports of others we have all lost respect for that organization and unless something changes I plan to pull my daughter out (as do others).

54 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

How does he plan to add them when troops have to be separate?

Option 1 - If BSA requires separate Troops for girls they will form a girl Troop and meet at the same time/place.  They have enough ASMs to staff up a girl Troop from their existing Boy Scout Troop.

Option 2 - Based on rumors we are hearing BSA may allow Troops to add girls as a separate Patrol.  

They would prefer Option 2 but either case leads to the same functional outcome.

One note.. this Troop has had girls unofficially participating for years.  They can’t do summer camps or other council activities but they go on high adventure and other outings.  A few even work on MBs (unofficially).  So the culture of the Troop is essentially coed.

What about the cell phone vibration motor?  I would expect that to be magnetic, just not sure how much.  

Note... be careful around any Lithium ion battery.  Mechanical damage to that battery could cause a fire.  Even when the cell phone is discharged there is a remaining charge in the battery ... so the potential exists.

55 minutes ago, qwazse said:

@UncleP l feel your pain. During the rechartering process, I have generated far more detail than BSA has ever published. For example, for each member who doesn't renew, I have to explain why. There are some check-boxes and one open-ended field. Those data of how many quit for which reason have never been in this report to the nation.

The annual report does include financial statements. If you have nothing better to do, you could fish through those and see how they stack up over the years.

I don't like the belligerent tone this POTUS takes, but I wouldn't mind if he asked our VIP scouts, "Where have the rest of your mates gone?"

I think THIS is what is critical.  All of us have some idea, but in aggregate it would be interesting for DEs to share some details to unit leaders on common themes.  While I wasn’t able to get a report on why from my DE, he did share a print out of every unit in my district and their past 8 year membership numbers.  I was able to use that as a new CC to reach out to the successful units (in terms of attrition) and get some recruiting and org structure ideas.  

Attending district meetings I’m shocked that Boy Scout Troops do not have high adventure activities every year.  Some never do HA.  Why?  As a kid, I remember the HA outings were a big reason why I stuck with my Troop for several years after Eagle (I could care less about palms).  

In the end, units vary greatly and over the last 20 years there are successful units and those that fold.  BSA should be more open with existing units on these reasons vs protecting the data and making their own conclusions.

51 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

In the annual report (at least 2016) they also noted the 492,159 "Scouts" in Career based programs and Learning for Life.  

Also interesting drops since 1998

• Cubs - 43%
• Boy Scouts - 19% (honestly less than I may have been led to believe)
• Venturing - 54%
• Total - 36%

Pretty good drop for Cubs.  Thought that was the growth area.

Problem is Venturing grew until 2008.  It has dropped 66% in last 10 years.  Cubs is also a concern as that includes addition of some Lions.  Sounds like Boy Scout Numbers may Be up a bit as Some Venturing converted over to Boy Scouts.  All in all... not a great report on numbers.  Hope this starts turning around soon.

Wow... Venturing is dieing. Down over 50% in last 4 years and now under 100k.  With some of those girls moving on to BS4G I don’t see it lasting much longer without some sort of revamp.  I hope these numbers fully reflect LDS exit.